Security SOP/Law change

[NebulaFlare]

Hmm.....that is true. But at the same time I don't want a well defined SoP that can be tossed around willy-nilly to back up powergaming from either sides.

If there's going to be any sort of edits, what we need is a guide on the wiki that explains in detail, what is expected of an officer. Not something that incident A is a briggable offense with consequence B. What can help is a guide on good ar-pee gameplay.

[the_furry]

Hmm.....that is true. But at the same time I don't want a well defined SoP that can be tossed around willy-nilly to back up powergaming from either sides.

If there's going to be any sort of edits, what we need is a guide on the wiki that explains in detail, what is expected of an officer. Not something that incident A is a briggable offense with consequence B. What can help is a guide on good ar-pee gameplay.

Hmm that’s actually a really good idea. If we could set up a guideline on the wiki for what makes a good officer and outline the values you stated I think that would be an effective tool for seeing the changes we want to make to security with out changing the law as I suggest. The only condition I would place on it is any current or future hos would be required to read understand and agree with the values stated in the guideline.

I would be happy with ether of these two changes, what I suggest or what you suggest. I would like to see one happen though because as it stands there is no protection to none sec members. I can understand you not wanting the sop thrown around willy-nilly and I like your suggestion on how we can avoid that and still Improve security. However I would prefer granting this change so that players may use the sop to at least protect themselves from perma brig (at least in a small fashion) because currently it’s completely left up to the officers and they have a tendency to perma brig you no matter what.

[Commissar_Drew]

Security guide?

https://docs.google.com/document/d/10TdjUMA3uPSg2qVWxAsh1tzhj2XokxgmhNQAQFZrquI/edit?usp=sharing

Enjoy.

[LordFowl]

The main problem, furry, with your suggestion is that it is too lenient. I agree actually more with Ravens. If we can't be a totalitarian dictatorship and just execute people for stealing bread, then we might as well go with the more logical idea of that if you do a crime and refuse to co-operate, you get a longer sentence, while if you do co-operate you get a regular sentence. To me, this makes a lot more sense than just letting people go because they were nice to the police officer. Most of the sentences in this game really aren't that long, even when not compared to real life sentences. Thus, doubling them for un-cooperative prisoners (Or increasing them by some other multiplier, doubling them might be a bit too harsh) is really quite valid. Reducing a five minutes sentence to one minute and twenty five seconds (Most sentences tend to be between five and ten minutes) just means that you'll be in and out before the Warden even gets back to his desk (Provided he is walking, like a good Warden should).

Operating under the idea that rewards reinforce good behavior, the reward to being cooperative is to avoid the threat of an extended sentence, not to embrace the gift of a minuscule sentence.

[Lady_of_Ravens]

The main problem, furry, with your suggestion is that it is too lenient. I agree actually more with Ravens. If we can't be a totalitarian dictatorship and just execute people for stealing bread, then we might as well go with the more logical idea of that if you do a crime and refuse to co-operate, you get a longer sentence, while if you do co-operate you get a regular sentence. To me, this makes a lot more sense than just letting people go because they were nice to the police officer. Most of the sentences in this game really aren't that long, even when not compared to real life sentences. Thus, doubling them for un-cooperative prisoners (Or increasing them by some other multiplier, doubling them might be a bit too harsh) is really quite valid. Reducing a five minutes sentence to one minute and twenty five seconds (Most sentences tend to be between five and ten minutes) just means that you'll be in and out before the Warden even gets back to his desk (Provided he is walking, like a good Warden should).

Operating under the idea that rewards reinforce good behavior, the reward to being cooperative is to avoid the threat of an extended sentence, not to embrace the gift of a minuscule sentence.

 

Well, the way I'd do it is double the time in the regs and give a 50% off for cooperative, non-repeat prisoners. That sounds a little nicer than double-time. Of course, if it were up to me most of those people coming out of their double-time brig sentences would be heading to the escape shuttle to wait for the opportunity to seek employment elsewhere.

[the_furry]

The main problem, furry, with your suggestion is that it is too lenient. I agree actually more with Ravens. If we can't be a totalitarian dictatorship and just execute people for stealing bread, then we might as well go with the more logical idea of that if you do a crime and refuse to co-operate, you get a longer sentence, while if you do co-operate you get a regular sentence. To me, this makes a lot more sense than just letting people go because they were nice to the police officer. Most of the sentences in this game really aren't that long, even when not compared to real life sentences. Thus, doubling them for un-cooperative prisoners (Or increasing them by some other multiplier, doubling them might be a bit too harsh) is really quite valid. Reducing a five minutes sentence to one minute and twenty five seconds (Most sentences tend to be between five and ten minutes) just means that you'll be in and out before the Warden even gets back to his desk (Provided he is walking, like a good Warden should).

Operating under the idea that rewards reinforce good behavior, the reward to being cooperative is to avoid the threat of an extended sentence, not to embrace the gift of a minuscule sentence.

 

Well, the way I'd do it is double the time in the regs and give a 50% off for cooperative, non-repeat prisoners. That sounds a little nicer than double-time. Of course, if it were up to me most of those people coming out of their double-time brig sentences would be heading to the escape shuttle to wait for the opportunity to seek employment elsewhere.

lady perhaps I misunderstand you. when you say double time then 50% off is that 50% off being applied to the double time or the original time? example, if the normal time is 2 mins, and you resist you get 4 mins. but if you cooperate are you only going to get 1 min, or id the 50% applied to the double and you end up with 2 mins anyway.

[the_furry]

The main problem, furry, with your suggestion is that it is too lenient. I agree actually more with Ravens. If we can't be a totalitarian dictatorship and just execute people for stealing bread, then we might as well go with the more logical idea of that if you do a crime and refuse to co-operate, you get a longer sentence, while if you do co-operate you get a regular sentence. To me, this makes a lot more sense than just letting people go because they were nice to the police officer. Most of the sentences in this game really aren't that long, even when not compared to real life sentences. Thus, doubling them for un-cooperative prisoners (Or increasing them by some other multiplier, doubling them might be a bit too harsh) is really quite valid. Reducing a five minutes sentence to one minute and twenty five seconds (Most sentences tend to be between five and ten minutes) just means that you'll be in and out before the Warden even gets back to his desk (Provided he is walking, like a good Warden should).

Operating under the idea that rewards reinforce good behavior, the reward to being cooperative is to avoid the threat of an extended sentence, not to embrace the gift of a minuscule sentence.

Avoiding a punishment is not the same as gaining a reward. It’s the classical definition of avoiding a punishment. This is a major distinction because we know for a fact that people are better motivated with actual rewards rather than punishments (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinforcement). So no lord your thoughts that it will work is simply an unfounded thought with no support. In fact support counters what you are saying. So I can safely say you are wrong in the most straight forward way. It’s not even partially wrong but in fact the exact opposite of what you are suggesting is actually the case. I do appreciate your attempted to address my argument and I point out that your thought is an error because I have provided references and facts to counter what you “think” is the case and facts lord are always stronger than thoughts, thus my idea to improve role-play is more supported.

Furthermore can you also address my counter to harsh punishments being a hindrance on role play? No one as address my biggest complaint and argument, how is permabrig or other harsh punishments conducive to good role-play. As I said what reason do I have to role-play an interesting cooperative arrest if I’m going to be effectively removed from roleplaying the rest of the game (or majority of the game).I have every motivation to fight as hard as I can and become violent. The other option is to not commit any crimes (I’ve heard people say “don’t do the crime if you can’t do the time”) however this is still majorly limiting role-play options (on a role-play server I might add). An example, say goodbye to anyone interested in roleplaying any sort of drug dealer (something that sounds fun and awesome). I say this because the dealer has three options, one deal and likely get perma for the first time offence (thus ending rp), two fight and become violent against security likely getting perma anyways (crappy roleplay and ending role-play), or three don’t become a drug dealer (which is not roleplaying at all). The options here very clearly limit role-play on a role-play oriented server. So please address how harsh punishments is conducive to a fun role-play experience considering the example I just gave (I can give others if needed). If I can have this question answered adequately then I will be convinced harsh punishments is ok.

[Lady_of_Ravens]

If the time was originally a pathetic 2 minutes, I'm suggesting it be changed to 4 minutes and if you're nice and it's the first time you'd get 2 minutes. And maybe 3 minutes if it happens again and you cooperate and it's a minor thing. Because while I agree with your psychology, I also think the brig times are dramatically too short for most things. Yeah, nobody likes being brigged, but I'm okay with that because the crime rate among the crew is absurdly high and there's no reason to encourage criminal RP.

Like with the drug dealer. Yeah, it's possible to play a drug dealer who comes to work, mixes drugs, and sells them to their fellow employees... but how realistic is that? And how realistic is it that NT would put up with it once they got caught?

And don't even get me started on actually violent crimes.

[the_furry]

If the time was originally a pathetic 2 minutes, I'm suggesting it be changed to 4 minutes and if you're nice and it's the first time you'd get 2 minutes. And maybe 3 minutes if it happens again and you cooperate and it's a minor thing. Because while I agree with your psychology, I also think the brig times are dramatically too short for most things. Yeah, nobody likes being brigged, but I'm okay with that because the crime rate among the crew is absurdly high and there's no reason to encourage criminal RP.

Like with the drug dealer. Yeah, it's possible to play a drug dealer who comes to work, mixes drugs, and sells them to their fellow employees... but how realistic is that? And how realistic is it that NT would put up with it once they got caught?

And don't even get me started on actually violent crimes.

so your not reducing any time abut instead putting time back to normal if people go cooperatively... also that is my point with the drug dealer, this server is more realism based rather than role-play based. i say that because if it was role-play based it would suspend more aspects of realism for the potential for excellent role play.

[LordFowl]

Realism and roleplay go hand in hand, furry.

Furthermore, even if I were to play your "support" game, and to me it truly is a game because you insist that your flimsy points are made valid by the flimsiest of sources, surely I would pick a better source than wikipedia. (See "flimsy"). A reward is merely recognition of effort; your cooperation (effort) is recognized, and thus you do not receive a heftier punishment. Raven, and now my own, idea works with the exact same concept as yours. By saying that our idea is not compliant with your narrow approach on your "reward" system is by extent saying that yours is not either, thus making the point moot. By offering the threat of an increased sentence for noncompliance, it handles the same issue of rewarding compliance, without reducing prison sentences to laughable seconds, less than the slaps on the wrist they are now.

And, trying to wrap my head around your logic with the drug dealer hurts me. See above "realism and roleplay go hand in hand". Roleplay is not escapist fantasy, unless defined by its rules as such. In this case, this roleplay server is not an escapist fantasy. If you're looking to become almost totally detached from logic and realism, then perhaps this roleplay server (And really roleplay at all) is not meant for you. To put it succinctly; REALISM IS IMPORTANT.

[Lady_of_Ravens]

Well, yes, RP is escapist fantasy... and I want to escape to a fantasy where aurora isn't a work-release program for the criminally delinquent.

Excellent RP isn't about playing whatever you want and damn the setting... people who do that get called snowflakes. Excellent RP is about playing a believable character who fits well (or fits poorly in a makes-sense sort of way) with the setting and environment. If you want your character to be a drug dealer, or a hooker, or a gangster, play them as an off-station dealer/hooker/gangster who does little to none of their business at work. Like the Jawdats.

I know many of us work hard to make coherent, setting-appropriate characters. And you have no idea how many times I miss out on doing fun stuff, or getting into interesting arguments, or just spacing someone, 'cause I know it's not what my character would do.

And while there are times when, say, assaulting someone is good RP... going to the brig for it is also good RP.

[the_furry]

Ok first off you are a decade behind if you think being a Wikipedia link automatically makes it a “flimsy” reference. But fine here you go.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0149763403001374

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/23321235?sid=21105650644323&uid=4&uid=2&uid=3739600&uid=3739256

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/2778382?sid=21105650644323&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739600&uid=3739256

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3132122?sid=21105650644323&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&uid=3739600

(you’ll have to sign up for the free beta to read the full article)

Don’t even begin to pretend you have an understanding of the way reward and punishment systems work until you read all of those (I’ll be grabbing more for you after work). You have child knowledge in a subject I have a degree in. this is especially apparent when you think a reward is the same thing as avoiding a punishment (something we know no to be the case). Don’t even attempt to discuss how things actually work in this aspect until you get on my level (read the links I’ll be sending).

Second no rp and realism do not go hand and hand and we often forgo realism for the enjoyment of rp which is what I am suggesting here. I mean if we wanted to focus on realism then no one could be a head until they played this game for +10 years. You would be tossed out of med-bay immediately for smoking (hell I doubt they would even let cigarettes in a closed o2 environment). The Bar (something very RP oriented) would not exist on a station like this or at least not serve alcohol. So No we depart from reality to encourage roleplay on several aspects of this game and I am suggesting that we do it more when crime is involved to further encourage role play environments. so the idea that we support realism (is not true) because it supports roleplay(also not true) is not only wrong but if we did do so as you suggest it would limit roleplay even further.

Third you (nor anyone for that matter) has addressed my question, how is harsh punishments conducive to roleplay considering it severally limits the roleplay options for criminals. Stop avoiding this, If I commit a crime what reason do I have not to become violent considering roleplay wise the moment I commit a crime I will likely be removed from the game anyway (thus ending roleplay).

Fourth, that’s the second time someone has asked that I leave the server during these discussions. Now I was told rather than just up and quitting I should have open discussions to help improve game play and enjoyment. Is this not the case? Rather than attempted to make suggestions and backing it up with decent arguments should I just drop it and leave because there is an unwillingness to actually consider making a change? If that’s the case you could have told me a while ago and I would not have wasted so much time typing now a good 10 pages of text in defending my ideas. This is a consideration at this point.

I’m heading to work now, I’ll have more later and more links for you later as well.

[the_furry]

Well, yes, RP is escapist fantasy... and I want to escape to a fantasy where aurora isn't a work-release program for the criminally delinquent.

Excellent RP isn't about playing whatever you want and damn the setting... people who do that get called snowflakes. Excellent RP is about playing a believable character who fits well (or fits poorly in a makes-sense sort of way) with the setting and environment. If you want your character to be a drug dealer, or a hooker, or a gangster, play them as an off-station dealer/hooker/gangster who does little to none of their business at work. Like the Jawdats.

I know many of us work hard to make coherent, setting-appropriate characters. And you have no idea how many times I miss out on doing fun stuff, or getting into interesting arguments, or just spacing someone, 'cause I know it's not what my character would do.

And while there are times when, say, assaulting someone is good RP... going to the brig for it is also good RP.

that's actually a really good idea (the drug dealer roleplay) and I had not considered that, I still argue the harsh punishments limit a lot of roleplay but your suggestion does expand the ability to roleplay criminality in a way I had not really considered (i'll have to consider it more about to head out). however one thing I do want to say. I don't think the entire station would turn into a "work release program for criminals" by making a small adjustment on the way we treat nonviolent crimes. I still argue that harsh punishments still limit roleplay and have given a direct example of how on station the harsh punishments actually become a motivator to become unnecessarily violent. can you explain how harsh punishments actually encourage roleplay in anyway?

[Baka]

Can you explain what kind of roleplay would be provoked if the SOP was laxed? Because all I really see of this is "Security is bad and prohibits roleplay because I want to self-antag and only if those pesky law enforcers were out of the picture."

[LordFowl]

I'm just not good at presenting points. As such, we have declared exterminatus upon my post for the crime of heresy, and it is now that we perform our charge. In fealty to the God-Emperor (our undying Lord) and by the Grace of the Golden Throne, I declare Exterminatus upon the Auroran Public Uplink Post of Security SOP/Law Change #39. I hereby sign the death warrant of an entire post, and consign a few paltry and irritating words to oblivion. May Imperial Justice account in all balance.

The Emperor Protect

EDIT: To anybody who saw what was written here before, recall that there is nothing here now.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Guest

[Lady_of_Ravens]

that's actually a really good idea (the drug dealer roleplay) and I had not considered that, I still argue the harsh punishments limit a lot of roleplay but your suggestion does expand the ability to roleplay criminality in a way I had not really considered (i'll have to consider it more about to head out). however one thing I do want to say. I don't think the entire station would turn into a "work release program for criminals" by making a small adjustment on the way we treat nonviolent crimes. I still argue that harsh punishments still limit roleplay and have given a direct example of how on station the harsh punishments actually become a motivator to become unnecessarily violent. can you explain how harsh punishments actually encourage roleplay in anyway?

 

First off, I'm not saying that your suggestion will turn aurora into a haven for criminals and delinquents, I'm saying that it already is one and your idea, while not without some merit, would make it worse.

Harsh punishments do limit RP. They're supposed to, as are many, many other parts of the game. Unlimited RP would be a disaster, resulting in the horrible mix of snowflakes and super geniuses who know every system on the station. And while absurdly low brig times aren't quite on the same level of horrible, they do move the server a little further in that direction. So what I would ask you, is how does the sort of criminal RP you seem to be interested in increase the quality (not quantity) of the RP or the immersion of the players?

I should point out a thread a while ago in the general forum suggested that a large percentage of the player base already consider aurora to be a dumping ground for the incompetent and maladjusted... and that those who don't are simply better at suspending their disbelief.

[the_furry]

Baka, that is a very oversimplification of what I am suggesting so I will gladly answer your question. Like I have stated this sop change would only effect nonviolent/minor violent crimes. So first its extremely hard to self-antag with nonviolent crimes only so it does not promote self-antagonizing. The overwhelming majority of self antagonizes will still end up landing themselves in full sentence because they will be committing major violent crimes. As for what we will be able to do, durgdealers/barfights is the first thing I can think of off the top of my head as has been sited before.

Now to the main thing I want to talk about, Lady_of_ravens you are actually convincing me with your comments. It’s tough questions that you and baka pose that explores the depth and merits of my suggestion. I think I understand why we have a difference of opinion on the situation so I would like to expand upon it to see if we can come to any agreed upon conclusion.

I would like to focus on your comment here “I'm not saying that your suggestion will turn aurora into a haven for criminals and delinquents, I'm saying that it already is one” because I think it’s the driving point that is causeing such a heated disagreement. You see lady I do not hold that opinion of the aurora station(I am not saying you are wrong). I think it’s a wonderful station full of excellent role-players that if given the opportunity to role-play further, they would take it. now If I am correct then a lighter punishment would open the doors to better role-play because according to me the players can handle the responsibility of not being a genius snowflake. However, If what you say is true then I can easily understand how my suggestion would in fact hinder the roleplay because it does leave more responsibility on the player themselves and if you have no faith in the player than it would be a better idea to take that responsibility away (as your idea suggests). So apparently comes down to whether we think the role player themselves can be responsible and not do self antag chucklefuck snowflake things.

To which, I think both of our opinions are correct on this one. Allow me to explain. Lady I never or rarely see you playing this game. That tells me you likely play the game during the day any time between 12-12 central, standard hours when most people play. I mainly play 11pm-5am what most people call dead hour. I think this simple time difference is having an enormous impact on our views of the role players on the station. Playing in dead hours I rarely see a lot of chuckle fucks or snowflakes. Most of the players I interact with perform delightful RP and stick to their characters interactions always keeping in mind "what would their character do". In the end most times the role play is shut down during these hours by security barging in and briging everyone. This is why I vouch for my sop change.

Now let’s examine your side. This is speculation but from what I’ve heard/seen/can imagine (I’ve been on a few times during active hours), there are many many more chucklefucks, bad role-players, and snowflakes on during active hours of aurora; which is why you hold the view point that the station is a haven for criminal delinquents. Of which I acknowledge, you are likely right that during these hours an sop change to the station will give these irresponsible players more power and would make the situation worse on the station. I think the viewpoint you hold is as accurate as the viewpoint I hold depending on the time you play this game (please tell me if you agree with my assessment of the situation).

So now I can see why we have a disagreement, but we should try to come to an agreement on how we can handle this. I see now a total sop change (in either direction) will harm someone, either limit good role-players from having fun, or granting too much power to bad roleplayers and further harming the quality of the server. There is a couple of suggestions I can make to improve the situation. The first being make no change to the sop considering this might be the least complicated and easiest thing to implement. Another suggestion is perhaps a timed change, during daytime hours sop can be strict and after 11pm regulations are loosened to benefit the dedicated role players on the server (loose regs takes place at work all the time, technically I can’t have my phone out at work till after 5).

Another suggestion is that perhaps we could create a whitelist of people who are known to value role-play and stick to character interactions over self-antagonizing and if you are on that list you can be shown favoritism by NT sec officers and be granted lighter sentences.

The final is a reiteration of nebs. Rather than making any changes to the sop perhaps we could formulize value statements for hos’ to abide by. Values such as the integrity and appearance of NT is more important than arresting one employee for a dumb crime (NT would rather sweep it under the rug, happens all the time in corps and universities).

These are just a couple of suggestions that we could follow through if we want to keep up this discussion and attempt to improve gameplay for all parties. I’ve not fully analyzed the merits of each one but please Tell me what you think. But I think we've also come to a better understanding of why we disagree so much so. (If I'm just completely off base please tell me)

[Baka]

There is a saying, Furry.

"If you cannot do the time, don't do the crime."

The point of the law is to be enforced. Security's job is to make sure these laws are enforced. Try to see stuff from the other side of the coin. For you, it might be fun breaking and entering in a place, experimenting without a proper piece of paperwork, or hell, a common crime of abusing comms. Remember that Security's job is to enforce the policy and regulations of the corporation. They have to gather the offender, take them to brig, process them, monitor them if there's no warden to make sure they don't escape, while dealing with the constant of "THIS IS SHITTY, THIS IS WRONG, FUCK YOU SHITCURITY." with some people even leaving the game in brig after sparking a manhunt to gather them (hint, a lot of people run away from crimes which are MINOR.) Where's the fun roleplay for security when you were just roleplaying "I was just having fun!"

The fact of the matter is, without security having their SoP the way it is, any Tom, Dick, and Harry can ruin someone's roleplaying round because they wanted to have "fun". For example, that's like someone in chemistry lab taking all the pill bottles to make "happy pills" to pass around, and security won't do something about it because of the technicality of him being a chemist so it's okay for him to use the equipment he sees fit, and that they shouldn't arrest him for said "happy pills" because it's just plain ol' space drugs and that makes you just see fancy colours and that isn't so bad if nobody's getting hurt.

You don't come to work to have fun whenever you want. You come to work to work. Security has a job, and if they catch you breaking the regulations, you can't fault them for doing their job now can you?

[the_furry]

There is a saying, Furry.

"If you cannot do the time, don't do the crime."

The point of the law is to be enforced. Security's job is to make sure these laws are enforced. Try to see stuff from the other side of the coin. For you, it might be fun breaking and entering in a place, experimenting without a proper piece of paperwork, or hell, a common crime of abusing comms. Remember that Security's job is to enforce the policy and regulations of the corporation. They have to gather the offender, take them to brig, process them, monitor them if there's no warden to make sure they don't escape, while dealing with the constant of "THIS IS SHITTY, THIS IS WRONG, FUCK YOU SHITCURITY." with some people even leaving the game in brig after sparking a manhunt to gather them (hint, a lot of people run away from crimes which are MINOR.) Where's the fun roleplay for security when you were just roleplaying "I was just having fun!"

The fact of the matter is, without security having their SoP the way it is, any Tom, Dick, and Harry can ruin someone's roleplaying round because they wanted to have "fun". For example, that's like someone in chemistry lab taking all the pill bottles to make "happy pills" to pass around, and security won't do something about it because of the technicality of him being a chemist so it's okay for him to use the equipment he sees fit, and that they shouldn't arrest him for said "happy pills" because it's just plain ol' space drugs and that makes you just see fancy colours and that isn't so bad if nobody's getting hurt.

You don't come to work to have fun whenever you want. You come to work to work. Security has a job, and if they catch you breaking the regulations, you can't fault them for doing their job now can you?

Baka, If you could, please reread posts earlier in this forum. Through your statements and examples it appears that you either do not understand what I am trying to suggest or that you are deliberately not addressing what I am trying to suggest. Because I have high hopes in people I assume it is simply a misunderstanding and request that you reread previous posts to gain that understanding.

I say this for three main reasons, first, your quote "If you cannot do the time, don't do the crime" Has already been directly addressed by me. In fact I primitively brought it up expecting someone to attempt to use that as an argument so that I could push it aside quickly. If you wish to bring it up now reread what I said about it and address my comments, please.

Second your example does not reflect in anyway what changes I am suggesting. At no point ever have I said not to arrest people. In fact I have very specifically stated that people should be arrested normally or more often. So this idea that security will be helpless because someone is making happy pills is completely off base and irrelevant to what I am suggesting.

The fact of the matter is not that security will be helpless and roleplay is ruined by the suggestions I am making and you have done nothing to show that it has. If you wish to argue against my points please take a moment to actually understand what it is I am arguing. The examples that you have given does not reflect what I am suggesting and if you are not addressing my actual suggestion then you are not furthering this discussion.

Thirdly, I understand “they –security- have to gather the offender, take them to brig, process them, monitor them if there's no warden to make sure they don't escape” and I am not suggesting any changes to that procedure. The fact that you are arguing that we should not change that tells me you either do not understand what I am suggesting or are blatantly ignoring what I am saying.

Finally “Try to see stuff from the other side of the coin” if you’ve read my previous post you will see that I am taking great strides to understanding your and securities sides of things. I go into detail on it and even admit that I am reconsidering some of the suggestions I am making. So that’s a thing.

[Lady_of_Ravens]

Well, actually I play as much during dead hours as the more lively ones, perhaps more so, but I'll grant that my opinion of aurora as a dumping ground is more heavily influenced by the more active rounds. I also play the AI pretty much exclusively, so I have a bit of a detached perspective... but that also means I'm involved in most security actions as a matter of course. So while I may not always approve of every security officer or action, I'm inclined to like them going about breaking up criminal RP because that's their RP. And because it helps the station run better when rules are enforced, and when the people breaking them are kept out of circulation... at least for a while.

You've conceptualized being brigged as an end (or at least lengthy pause) to RP. This is not so... or at least it shouldn't be. If you're stuck in a cell in the brig, RP being stuck in a cell in the brig. No, it probably doesn't involve a lot of social interaction, but RPing is about more than typing and interacting. Saying nothing can be as much RPing as filling the screen with detailed emotes. Sometimes it's because your character's personality is such that they wouldn't say or do anything (EmPrESS often completely ignores arguments and personal attacks, for example), and sometimes it's because your character's personality has put them in a situation where they can't do anything. Instead of being bored, use it as an opportunity to get inside your character's head, think what they'd be thinking about while waiting in a cell.

So, from this perspective, I can't really agree with any of your suggestions. Even if they were practical, which they really aren't. The different rules at different times thing makes some sense... except that it'd be weird during a shift (do the rules change mid shift or only change at shift change... either way would be confusing), and make very little sense ICly... oh, and it limits RP. If security wants to be more relaxed during dead hours, that's their business, and should be based on their characters. Some officers and HOSes are pretty chill, others have lengths of disposal pipe up their asses... that's their character, and their RP.

The whilelist... well, two words: "Admin favoritism". And two more: "double standard". Plus it'd be a horrible PITA ICly having to check if someone is on a list of people with special privileges, especially when their presence on the list would be unrelated to anything IC.

Now, the idea that the HOS or Captain might sweep a small offense under the rug to protect a valuable crewmember or avoid embarrassment makes sense. And, often enough, small offenses by heads of staff are overlooked. Sometimes not so small ones, but that's a different issue...

In any case, I don't see how making a policy of sweeping small crimes under the rug would have any effect other than to encourage small crimes. There's not even a small amount of brig time involved if it's being ignored. And, like fines, the problems associated with being out of favor with your boss or coworkers generally ends with the shift.

So, yeah, if you can't RP doing the time, don't play someone who would do the crime.

On a more favorable note, longer brig times would mean having a better chance of having someone to RP with while your stuck there. XD

[the_furry]

Well, actually I play as much during dead hours as the more lively ones, perhaps more so, but I'll grant that my opinion of aurora as a dumping ground is more heavily influenced by the more active rounds. I also play the AI pretty much exclusively, so I have a bit of a detached perspective... but that also means I'm involved in most security actions as a matter of course. So while I may not always approve of every security officer or action, I'm inclined to like them going about breaking up criminal RP because that's their RP. And because it helps the station run better when rules are enforced, and when the people breaking them are kept out of circulation... at least for a while.

You've conceptualized being brigged as an end (or at least lengthy pause) to RP. This is not so... or at least it shouldn't be. If you're stuck in a cell in the brig, RP being stuck in a cell in the brig. No, it probably doesn't involve a lot of social interaction, but RPing is about more than typing and interacting. Saying nothing can be as much RPing as filling the screen with detailed emotes. Sometimes it's because your character's personality is such that they wouldn't say or do anything (EmPrESS often completely ignores arguments and personal attacks, for example), and sometimes it's because your character's personality has put them in a situation where they can't do anything. Instead of being bored, use it as an opportunity to get inside your character's head, think what they'd be thinking about while waiting in a cell.

So, from this perspective, I can't really agree with any of your suggestions. Even if they were practical, which they really aren't. The different rules at different times thing makes some sense... except that it'd be weird during a shift (do the rules change mid shift or only change at shift change... either way would be confusing), and make very little sense ICly... oh, and it limits RP. If security wants to be more relaxed during dead hours, that's their business, and should be based on their characters. Some officers and HOSes are pretty chill, others have lengths of disposal pipe up their asses... that's their character, and their RP.

The whilelist... well, two words: "Admin favoritism". And two more: "double standard". Plus it'd be a horrible PITA ICly having to check if someone is on a list of people with special privileges, especially when their presence on the list would be unrelated to anything IC.

Now, the idea that the HOS or Captain might sweep a small offense under the rug to protect a valuable crewmember or avoid embarrassment makes sense. And, often enough, small offenses by heads of staff are overlooked. Sometimes not so small ones, but that's a different issue...

In any case, I don't see how making a policy of sweeping small crimes under the rug would have any effect other than to encourage small crimes. There's not even a small amount of brig time involved if it's being ignored. And, like fines, the problems associated with being out of favor with your boss or coworkers generally ends with the shift.

So, yeah, if you can't RP doing the time, don't play someone who would do the crime.

On a more favorable note, longer brig times would mean having a better chance of having someone to RP with while your stuck there. XD

Lady I will never support longer brig times because it would further hamper things during dead hour, however your assessment is pretty accurate for my other suggestions as I had come to a similar conclusion after I had posted them. At this point it seems the best consideration is perhaps making value statements and guidelines for HOS and other security members to follow. Other than that leaving things as is seems to be the best option of all.

[Baka]

I do not understand why you are still fighting this since all the points in your argument has been addressed, and it has been repeatedly agreed to what I heard that nothing is really going to change to make the SOP nor the Corporate Regulations weaker than it already is. It's a losing battle you're trying to fight for, The Furry, and I recommend that you play a full round of security on a high populated round as a cadet, follow an officer, and see what it's like before complaining about the SOP.

[Guest]

See the above post.

You've not done anything but provide an absolute irritating experience for security in science. I'd like to see you do security's job better.

[the_furry]

I do not understand why you are still fighting this since all the points in your argument has been addressed, and it has been repeatedly agreed to what I heard that nothing is really going to change to make the SOP nor the Corporate Regulations weaker than it already is. It's a losing battle you're trying to fight for, The Furry, and I recommend that you play a full round of security on a high populated round as a cadet, follow an officer, and see what it's like before complaining about the SOP.

My major question on how harsher punishments would improve role play has not been addressed. My comments about rewards and punishments to lord has not been addressed. My comments on the quote “can’t do the time don’t do the crime” has in fact not been addressed. I’m sure I can find other things that have not been adequately addressed, so no baka all of my augments have in fact not been addressed. The only two that was was my request to provide examples of alternative role play situations and the discussion of responsibility among the players, those where the only two and they were addressed by lady raven; Who because of that, has convinced me to change my suggestion. Just because you state it was already addressed does not mean it actually was, do I need to copy and paste my questions again or will you just go back and read them to save me some time?

Now I was convinced by lady raven so I no longer support a change to the sop. I think it’s still a worthy discussion to be had to see if we can improve security as a lot of people still complain about it. Now that lady raven has convinced me that my suggestion is not the best idea (whom I am grateful to that she took the time to deconstruct and address a major point I had), I am trying to switch gears from my suggestion to discuss if there is anything we can do to better improve security on the server. I still think that is a worthy discussion because security is one of the most complained about groups and finding a way to improve it would be helpful for everyone. You are still commenting as if I am only suggesting a change to the sop, please for the love of god catch up with this conversation. I am no longer supporting a change to the sop. I am attempting to ask what will improve security at this point (I honestly don’t know but I would like to try and find out), and I am making a suggestion to create a valued based guideline that hos’ and officers can choose to follow. Something lady raven seems appealed to but you have blatantly ignored.

[Lady_of_Ravens]

I've got to say, I don't see why you're so passionate about this either. Yeah, security can be a bummer, but for the most part they're a positive bummer. So, like, what is this criminal RP that you have going on that's so important to you? I want to get a picture of what it is you're doing when security comes barging in.

I'd also like to hear what manner of mission/value statement you think would solve this "problem". I'll probably poke holes in it, that's what I do, but it'll make for an interesting discussion and something might come out of it.

And, finally, I'd like to... uh... third Baka's suggestion. Play during a busy round as a cadet and get an idea what it's like. Or, if you think you're up to it, play as the AI for a few busy rounds (preferably not consecutively, that's hard), and develop a proper appreciation for the redshirts who run around stopping people from hacking your doors and fucking with your systems. Learn the annoyance of helping to arrest some stupid chucklefuck only to have them out of the brig before you're done running down the next minor crisis. And the boredom of sitting around watching genetics 'cause there are two 30-year-old balds in there and you just know they're going to do something bad. In other words, spend a few rounds trying to make the station work smoothly, and then see how you feel about sentence times.