Bring Back Tribunals (Or Something!)

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

In our current system, no matter the reason for you needing to be brigged, you have no real method of legally combating the charges. After observing for awhile and hearing testimony from some other players who either ended up trapped in a cell for extended periods for silly charges (or released by the Warden who saw through the silly charge) I've decided to suggest that we bring back the method of ensuring an accused at least has an avenue of fair treatment.

I should say first off that tribunal =/= trial. A trial is the whole shebang of courtrooms, judge, jury, witnesses - that's just unfeasible to do.

(Plus back when I was a lawyer and did them they usually resulted in riots)

A tribunal would consist of the Heads of Staff and, if one is on, Internal Affairs. It can be conducted over the radio as well to make it simple, if they're all busy. But the process would be that during blue or green alert, if someone's brig time tallies up over 20 minutes, they are entitled to a tribunal where their charges are presented to the rest of the Command Staff and Internal Affairs. The Command staff must agree if the charges, individually or as a whole, are valid or invalid.

If this is too much to ask of Command Staff to ensure that employees stop being legally robusted by sec, then Internal Affairs themselves should be given more legal power to jump into brig times by being legally required to oversee a case if the time is over 20 minutes.

I've seen some really silly brig times by security (like 20 minutes for having a whisky bottle in atmospherics, or 20 minutes for standing at securities' APC 'suspiciously') and it would be nice if there was another option outside "kill them" or "run and hide", because shouting "I didn't do it, I need a legal representative!" is met with an eye roll and sarcastic comment that THERE IS NO LAW BUT THE LAW TELLING US THE MAX BRIG TIME FOR YOU, CRIMINAL SCUM

Pros:

More RP

Better way to combat excessive brig times

Internal Affairs has more to do

Command Staff is more involved with security and procedures

Cons:

Could eat up Command time possibly

More RP

Weakening of the security juggernaut

[Aqy]

I think this is a good idea. I believe this has potential to make mutiny/traitor rounds in which there is serious role play beyond a bald who is angry that they got caught trying to bomb the bar with a fuel tank an welder, this has potential to add another level of depth; meaning it won't just stop after the antag is arrested and questioned. I also think that it adds potential for traitorous heads who are not loyalty implanted to make something interesting happen.

Although, I can't say I agree with IAs having more presiding over the security department, I could see it being different if they are just overseeing the case. Maybe give IAs who sometimes have nothing to do, something to look after and be involved in.

I also think that this will give people a way to stop blaming mistakes they make, or dumb things they do on "shitcurity." Although, I will agree that there are times that people in security mess up, I know I have had my fair shares of times I screwed up. But, unfortunately, it seems that most everyone instantly blames security any time anything happens that they don't like, and people end up having to hear people complain about them in either LOOC or OOC which is no fun for anyone, so I think that this would be a good way to stop either bad officers or bad antags/people breaking the regulations.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

I think this is a good idea. I believe this has potential to make mutiny/traitor rounds in which there is serious role play beyond a bald who is angry that they got caught trying to bomb the bar with a fuel tank an welder, this has potential to add another level of depth; meaning it won't just stop after the antag is arrested and questioned. I also think that it adds potential for traitorous heads who are not loyalty implanted to make something interesting happen.

Although, I can't say I agree with IAs having more presiding over the security department, I could see it being different if they are just overseeing the case. Maybe give IAs who sometimes have nothing to do, something to look after and be involved in.

I also think that this will give people a way to stop blaming mistakes they make, or dumb things they do on "shitcurity." Although, I will agree that there are times that people in security mess up, I know I have had my fair shares of times I screwed up. But, unfortunately, it seems that most everyone instantly blames security any time anything happens that they don't like, and people end up having to hear people complain about them in either LOOC or OOC which is no fun for anyone, so I think that this would be a good way to stop either bad officers or bad antags/people breaking the regulations.

 

Sometimes it's difficult for me to fully articulate all my thoughts - I can talk for half an hour with someone about why x is a good idea, but then when I sit down to write an official suggestion or response I blank out. This is the other big reason that I think this would be a good idea - it would give people more RP when they're brigged, with all the drama that can come from the system.

I feel we need to remember that antags aren't the only ones that shouldn't worry about 'playing to win'; being unable to toss someone in a cell for 30 minutes isn't a win or a loss from a 'legal' standpoint, but one that should be looked to from an RP stand-point.

[Susan]

It seems that this poisonous 'it's a game i have to have fun' rhetoric has been spreading very far, and ideas like this catch my ire because the heart of the issue rests with someone who got arrested for being an idiot and they're mad they got sentenced accordingly. With that in mind, I want to respond to this with a resounding 'no ( to half of the suggestion )'. Bare-bones anecdotal evidence of 'trumped up' brig timers is not enough to make me even stop to consider that what you are saying is a widespread issue and not just Player B thinking they shouldn't be arrested for knocking Player A's teeth out and that it's the system's fault and not theirs.

I play security consistently almost every day and the occasions recalled do not happen with the severity people would like you to believe. I am more than one hundred percent certain that allegations of inflated brig times come from problem players or characters who are constantly arrested for the same things who believe that breaking and entering or theft shouldn't be punished and that it's security's fault for arresting them for breaking the law. I can count on my hand the number of times that an innocent person was actually locked up and it is a low number indeed. Most of us who play security aren't stupid and Internal Affairs can and should look into arrests that are questionable.

However, for timers over forty minutes without crimes like murder or anything else that would account mandatory permanent detainment (murder, attempted murder, rape, sabotage) I would support a tribunal to weigh in and potentially decide what to do with this individual, to release them with implants or permabrig them or what have you. I simply don't believe that 'illegitimate arrests' happen with such a consistency that the brig is full of entirely innocent people to warrant such a low level asinine check and balance because I've been there and I can say without a doubt most of those complaining are those who are upset with the times given for their wanton disregard.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

snip snap

 

Personally, I have had experiences where I have been:

1) Brigged for 20 minutes for 'suspicious conduct' which was my engineer cat looking at securities' APC.

2) Hunted down to be brigged for ~30 minutes for "neglect of duty" and "failure to execute an order" for releasing documents about the HoS and other officers beating an innocent man, as the detective. You were there and detained the guys.

3) Been permabrigged for sympathizing with revs without taking any action against the station, being left to rot.

I have heard personal accounts of people who have:

1) Been detained and demoted for bringing whisky from the bar.

2) Detained and demoted for arguing with their Head of Staff.

3) Permabrigged for being revs without doing anything violent.

Edit:

I feel I don't have the energy to retort your "Just because it's a game doesn't mean you should have fun." mentality because it's one you've stuck by for an extremely long time, and I feel it speaks for itself.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Marlon Phoenix

[Susan]

And everything except that incident with your engineer can be justified; I witnessed almost all of these situations; the reality is leaking police case files or taking part in seditious activities (which does not require a violent crime to occur) are actually very serious and just because you think your charges are trumped up doesn't mean they actually are. You can get in trouble for doing those very same things in real life, and you should for doing them in game. Your boss can also fire you for arguing with them - if you tried that in the real world your ass would probably be grass.

There is a point here that needs to be addressed. I don't hate fun. I don't hate roleplay. However, I don't think that fun needs to come before roleplay. Play a character in its entirety, don't play a character and then expect to get away with bloody murder because it's a game. Yes, we're here to have fun, but fun has boundaries. If you cross those boundaries then you end in the brig. There isn't a game in this world without rules and regulations and this game is no different. People don't want to sit in the brig and they don't want to take their times and they want timers nerfed and laws removed and oh no I want to have fun, but they all expect everyone to react super realistic when an antagonist points a gun at them or be totally okay with being murdered so everyone else can have fun. It's interesting to see this double standard pop up; Baystation is notorious for kissing antagonist ass all the time, I don't want to see that happen here.

Fun is okay. But fun has boundaries. Cutting people's butts off is fun. But does it cross the boundary? Yes. Believability is more important than fun.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

So I snipped your post. Why don't you... SUE me over it?

 

I think a problem in our disagreement is that we're butting heads over two different realities - I'm not proposing anything that would cripple security, or let murderers walk free(?). Having a tribunal - as formal or informal as the Heads desire - would add a layer of brig RP and act as a failsafe against the situations where the accused really is being targeted by sec in ways that only sec deems fair - the contents of the incident reports and character complaint boards are testament to the fact that these situations /do/ exist.

edit:

By the Emperor, even if tribunals did let someone off scott free for murder or whatever, it's not the end of the game. You want antags to suck up when they fail, and it should be the same for security - if they fail to properly convince the Heads of Staff that someone deserves a prolonged sentence, then they need to live with that person getting out when his alloted time is up.

[Skull132]

The simple thought: any initial brig timer exceeding 30 minutes, or a charge demanding the permabrigging of an individual, should pass Command Staff review (ergo, a tribunal). These aren't court cases, mind you, but they should be given a say in their defence (or, at least, the Command Staff should provide it). Following this, whatever action the Command Staff decides on can be taken.

This would mean that harsh crimes go under review, which will make committing them a bit more feasible and antags less scared.

[Guest]

As a note, you don''t need to quote the post if you are posting directly after it

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

I don't understand why some people have approached me with concerns about this idea, all in the same mindset that this is trying to give antags a 'get out of jail free' card or to cripple sec.

Am I failing to articulate this correctly? Let me try a different approach.

No matter how you approach it or argue it, the brig is a dead zone for RP for non-sec. If you're really nice and they're:

A) not busy

B) they like you

They'll stand outside your cell and taunt you for awhile or whatever. That's fine - this doesn't touch any brig time under 20 - 30 minutes. (I'm on the fence about which would be better - I'll switch to 30 minutes since that's a good 1/4 of an antag round (or not im bad at fractions).

But if you're a rev and you get tossed in for mutiny because RNJ let the AI see your PDA message about kidnapping the Captain to remove his implant and make him rev, the only recourse you have to get out of the boring, terrible, awful, BORING permabrig is to have a HoS on who can agree to the "implant em and let em go" tactic.

But even then, there's little for the antags to do. No RP, no conflict. The best way to 'avoid' being punished hard is with violence or running away - something "high RP" veterans frown on all the time. A tribunal would give them a last chance to get out of this - and not have "You're under arrest" be the end-game for antagonists.

If your fear comes true, and a bunch of griefers bombed medbay and their time is permanent, how by the Emperor's light do you think they'd ever be given an innocent sentence? Barring some massive brain aneurysm in the entire Command staff, the fear that they're going to let mass murderers or obvious dumbdumbs off scott-free 4noraisin seems silly to me.

And even if the CMO brought up that the detective lost all her evidence and that the search warrant was invalid because no one signed it, letting the Head Rev go free - is that so bad? They can go back to being an antagonist, and everyone can react to it organically - vigilante justice, a burned detective with nothing to lose on his last day of retirement - a second investigation, or just biding your time to bust him again.

I really think this could be a better system than just having the AI say "Alert! X is [traitor]!" throwing all the big antag plans down the toilet and having them forced to either submit and have nothing to do but complain about it or resist violently and get scoffed about later by players "above" such robust behaviours.

[Hackie]

I'm with Jackboot.

This station isn't a police state or some high-tech super duper Nanotrasen [*]xenomorph research facility, it's a workplace. If the book says it's over 20-30 minutes, permanent brig is an option. But, it should be approved by the tribunal first. Putting someone into the permanent brig looks bad, and ruining someone's round just because they did something minor/insignificant, is not fair. However, if the heads determine that they should be in the brig because their offense was so great, that they should not be trusted to wander the station freely, they can go right ahead.