Staff complaint - TheDocOct, ShameOnTurtles

[AmoryBlaine]

BYOND Key: AmoryBlaine
Staff BYOND Key: ShameOnTurtles and TheDocOct
Game ID: N/A
Reason for complaint: Poor handling of situation(Ironic and hyporitical of me, I am aware), and general poor handling of role duties as Captain and unjustified appeal denial.
Evidence/logs/etc:

At the end of September I was involved in a round of merc where in the mercenary team boarded the station, engaged personnel with lethals, and took personnel cpative. Security consisted of myself and I believe two other personnel. The Captain for the shift was TheDocOct's.

At the start of the raid by the mercenaries, myself and another officer boarded their shuttle which was docked at the time and unlocked. Upon entering it was quite clear that this team was heavily armed and willing to use lethal means to accomplish their goals.

 The first thing I did once I was aboard their shuttle was report my findings to the Captain, I believe. They were informed of the nuke aboard the shuttle, and the nature of the attack carried out. I attempted to negotiate the release of personnel captured by the team in exchange for their shuttle, so that they may leave without a fight.

As it became increasingly clear that they were not willing to cooperate with the terms offered, I informed the Captain that I would likely attempt to destroy the shuttle in order to prevent further raids on the station and make the deployment of a nuclear device certain death for the mercenaries. The Captain, who I had been asking for orders from throughout the round simply okay'd whatever I felt was necessary to eliminate the threat. As I stated in the appeal- I FULLY ACCEPT MY RESPONSIBILITY IN HAVING TAKEN FULL LIBERTY WITH THIS INSTRUCTION. I DECIDED TO BLOW UP THE SHUTTLE KNOWING FULL WELL THERE WERE CREW MEMBERS AND MERCENARIES ABOARD IT. I AM AWARE OF THE RAMIFICATIONS FOR HAVING DONE THID AND HAVE NO INTENTION OF CARRYING OUT ANY ACTIONS THAT WOULD BE DEEMED EQUALLY OR SIMILAR IN ANY MANNER YO THAT WHICH I DID. How this does not constitute for accepting my actions and being worthy of an unban after I already spent THREE SELF-IMPOSED MONTHS lying to myself about this fact is beyond me. I have nothing else to add to this part of my complaint.

I would consider Doc's inaction to correct my very obvious intentions for carrying out the act of blowing up a shuttle full of people to be unbecoming of a staff member and a whitelisted command player. This was not me PDA'ing a Captain. It was me PDA'ing THEIR captain. THEY were recieving the messages and yet at no point did Doc adminPM me, nor question my intentions- nor did they offer any other options or suggestions. I do not believe that a Captain should be allowing Security Officer full liberty in carrying out whatever they deem to be necessary when handling a situation that is time sensitive, involves  a nuclear device, multiple hostages and a breakdown of communication. Not to mention the general panic and stress that comes with being forced to take charge and authority with zero oversight or assistance.




Additional remarks: Given this is three months aftet the incident I have very little in regards to a clear recollection of the events as they occured. I intend to have you, the staff, bring up all relative logs. I may also make a seperate complaint over Doc's captain play if it does not belong in this section of the forum. 

[Garnascus]

Alright so this complaint is to contest the denial of your unban appeal and you are also contesting the decision made IC by Doc's captain to let you "destroy the shuttle"? I do not know much about the situation but i reckon the choice of words here is going to become important. Also the assumptions made. Did the captain intend or allow you to have such heavy collateral damage? If not then i am not really understanding where his fault is established here.

 

As for the specific unban appeal i will dig it up and try to pin down why it was denied. I will be able to go deeper into this complaint tomorrow when i am at work. 

[AmoryBlaine]

4 hours ago, Garnascus said:

Alright so this complaint is to contest the denial of your unban appeal and you are also contesting the decision made IC by Doc's captain to let you "destroy the shuttle"? I do not know much about the situation but i reckon the choice of words here is going to become important. Also the assumptions made. Did the captain intend or allow you to have such heavy collateral damage? If not then i am not really understanding where his fault is established here.

 

As for the specific unban appeal i will dig it up and try to pin down why it was denied. I will be able to go deeper into this complaint tomorrow when i am at work. 

The Captain was made fully aware of my intentions to blow up the shuttle, with everyone aboard. They did nothing to disuade me from carrying out this, nor did Doc concern themself with it OOCly until I had done it. Hardly fair in my opinion to ICly say yes to something as Captain then immediately after it is done adminPM me about fucking up.

The ban appeal was yesterday.

[ShameOnTurtles]

This was the appeal, for reference: 

The reason I denied it was because in your appeal I did not believe you were fulfilling the criteria of an unban appeal. I got the sense you didn't agree with the judgement, didn't think you were in the wrong, but still just wanted to be unbanned.

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I have a track record of notes concerning my Security play- which do not account for the amount of rounds I have played without incident, nor the context for each noted incident- and this singular ban in my history of play- excluding that which was lifted in the past.

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I have put in a heavy amount of time into this server and community. I would like the ban lifted, please.

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they would be forced to remain on the station until a response team was made available; mind you this was after having already attempted to negotiate the release of any captured personnel for the return of their shuttle. It does fall on me for taking that liberty, and I will not repeat the mistake. What I would like to ask is why I got indefinite job-bans rather than timed bans, all the while having zero bans on my record. 

While yes, you do say "I will not repeat the mistake." the phrasing around it does not communicate that you were taking responsibility.

[AmoryBlaine]

10 minutes ago, ShameOnTurtles said:

This was the appeal, for reference: 

 

While yes, you do say "I will not repeat the mistake." the phrasing around it does not communicate that you were taking responsibility.

It does fall on me for taking that liberty, and I will not repeat the mistake.  

 

[AmoryBlaine]

I find it odd that I was denied my appeal for giving justification to my actions at the time, rather than only stating that I would not repeat the offense and then saying sorry many times over- a custom I am familiar with and partake it quite often, on the personal front of things. But this isn't suppose to be personal, it's suppose to be disconnected from that, but I find it a bit hard to not take it personal, when I give my honest word, as well as I know it, on a matter, and then get told "I don't see you here taking responsibility."

 I would have thought and did- at the time- think that this would be something of use to staff, how I told it; having a full understanding as to why a player took an action and how it might also be prevented in similar situations.

Here's a breakdown for you, if you have not yet read the appeal:

"I need to know that you understand where you went wrong in the lead up to your current ban" - Miscommunication between myself and the Captain lead to me believing I had been given authorization to scuttle the shuttle, with the Mercs and whoever they were able to grab, aboard it as acceptable losses, given that without a shuttle nor a mobile location for them to operate from, they would be forced to remain on the station until a response team was made available; mind you this was after having already attempted to negotiate the release of any captured personnel for the return of their shuttle. 

 "You don't really seem to take responsibility" - It does fall on me for taking that liberty, and I will not repeat the mistake. 

As for the final question, ("What I would like to ask is why I got indefinite job-bans rather than timed bans, all the while having zero bans on my record.") that was simply a question that had come to mind as I wrote the appeal, an afterthought, that was somewhat related to the topic of the appeal, and did not mind having answered at the same time as said appeal.

 

[ShameOnTurtles]

Possibly a clearer way to say what I mean is that I don't believe you were genuine. I do not believe that you thought you were in the wrong and were admitting you made a mistake. It is the phrasing and choice of words in your appeal that makes me believe this.

In the original post in your appeal, you state: 

Quote

I have a track record of notes concerning my Security play- which do not account for the amount of rounds I have played without incident, nor the context for each noted incident... I have- and had- every intention to play within the rules of the server, and would have done so, given I were not banned indefinitely from the role.

This does not sound like taking responsibility. This sounds like trying to justify why the ban was unfair, or otherwise calling the validity of your notes into question.

Your last post in the appeal pretty much blames the ordeal on the captain, and describes how you were justified. Specifically saying "Mind you this was after having already attempted to negotiate the release..." is like you were trying to remind people how reasonable your actions were.

When you say, "It does fall on me for taking that liberty, and I will not repeat the mistake." I maintain it isn't actually taking responsibility as you are very vague here. You don't describe yourself making a mistake, and simply attribute the situation to a miscommunication of captain's orders.

 

I hope this clarifies things. This is how your unban appeal appeared to me.

[AmoryBlaine]

14 minutes ago, ShameOnTurtles said:

Possibly a clearer way to say what I mean is that I don't believe you were genuine. I do not believe that you thought you were in the wrong and were admitting you made a mistake. It is the phrasing and choice of words in your appeal that makes me believe this.

In the original post in your appeal, you state: 

This does not sound like taking responsibility. This sounds like trying to justify why the ban was unfair, or otherwise calling the validity of your notes into question.

Your last post in the appeal pretty much blames the ordeal on the captain, and describes how you were justified. Specifically saying "Mind you this was after having already attempted to negotiate the release..." is like you were trying to remind people how reasonable your actions were.

When you say, "It does fall on me for taking that liberty, and I will not repeat the mistake." I maintain it isn't actually taking responsibility as you are very vague here. You don't describe yourself making a mistake, and simply attribute the situation to a miscommunication of captain's orders.

 

I hope this clarifies things. This is how your unban appeal appeared to me.

It clarifies nothing that was not clear to me the moment you denied my appeal. You continue to accuse me of lying. When I say, I took liberty that means, "I did this of my own volition." I DID IT. I DID IT AND WILL NOT DO IT AGAIN. Maybe there's a language barrier here. I don't see how there can be, seeing as you speak this language as fine as I do. If I had intent of fighting the legitimacy of me blowing up a shuttle, do you think I would put myself through all this God damn stress knowing full well my own feelings on it? No, I do not lie to myself or others. I may be falling apart at the seems by this time, by I am not a liar. If I felt that I was in the right for blowing up the shuttle, I'd have made a staff complaint first.

Do I take grievance with the Captain and their involvement prior to MY fuck up? Yes, hence the second part of this complaint- as should anyone who is under another's authority and suffers consequence due to lack of proper guidance on their part. This however does not exempt me from guilt, nor have I attempted to do that. I am a big boy, I PLAYED here often enough to know when not to cross a line but I crossed it. And I have already tried to get this point across to you and to say otherwise is a blatant lie on your part and I resent the standing accusation you have made against me.

I have not proof read this and it is on my phone. 

[AmoryBlaine]

@Garnascus I change my mind. I'll settle thing with Doc outside of this complaint. Either in a character/player complaint or private. This is about the appeal only, anyways.

[Garnascus]

I will get to this as soon as i can. Im sorry some things have me pre-occupied until the 1st. 

[Garnascus]

@ShameOnTurtles I mean he says he shouldn't have done it.I think you should just unban him. 

[ShameOnTurtles]

Alright. I don't have an objection to his unban anymore, then.

[Garnascus]

ok thank you

 

Is there anything else @AmoryBlaine

[AmoryBlaine]

@Garnascus No, this outcome is agreeable. Thanks.

[Garnascus]

ok