Outboarduniform Posted April 4, 2020 Posted April 4, 2020 BYOND Key: Outboarduniform Staff BYOND Key: Cnaym Game ID: I am not sure, but it was yesterday evening around 10PM PST Reason for complaint: I had to think a lot about this, and unfortunately I didn't pull any logs or took any pictures, but I disagree with the punishment that I received yesterday from Cnaym. That punishment was the removal of my command whitelist and a three day ban from Security. Essentially, these are the few major points that I disagree with in what I think led up to the application of the ban, along with the whitelist removal that was applied as a part of it: A disagreement in the application of Corporate Regulations: So, in this round, there was a cult. After around I believe 30 minutes, we found a dead monkey on top of a rune of its own blood in the maintenance by Medical. We quickly traced it to a Guwan gardener, Sarah Guwan, if I am correct, though I do not know the ckey of who plays that character. This cultist bunkered down in a hard to reach area by the Chief Medical Officer's office, and essentially, started a siege. After my officers had secured the perimeter of the area, it was clear that the Guwan, fully robed and with a sword, was going to stay inside of this safe area and utilize invisible walls, which she did. When I had first arrived, I was already deaf via cultist abilities. What followed was essentially a cyclic event of this Guwan stunning us, charging out with a sword, stabbing us, and then retreating. Eventually, we managed to convince an Engineer, by the name of Conservan Xullie, (if I am spelling that correctly), to cut through a wall near maintenance, in which the Guwan rushed out after stunning us again, in which I lost my leg and my Detective was injured, in which the Cultist was finally apprehended. After this, most of my manpower was thoroughly sapped and in Medical for treatment. Now, I introduce to you two of the other suspects of this shift in which I had dealt with, of which there was only four overall. A Skrellian Researcher of some sort, and an Optikam. Optikam Mhapkiss, or something similar. I forget the name of the Skrell. The Optikam, during the chaos, was reported to me as to have stolen medical supplies. I had also started to receive very interesting reports about the Skrell wanting to talk to command members of the like, but we'll get to that later. The Skrell and the Optikam were apparently just chilling in the hallway, fully robed, and were reported to have had swords through my Detective. As I was asleep during surgery, and had woken up at that time, the Detective had informed me they had ordered them detained, as it was very obvious that they were of the same ilk as the Guwan who had started the Medical siege I had mentioned prior. Of course, seeing that though they had not done anything themselves save for the Contraband that they had, I had them brought in for Aiding and Abetting with all of the charges the Guwan was processed for. This is where the difference of opinion seems to begin with me and Cnaym. Allow me to quote Corporate Regulations on Aiding and Abetting: "Aiding and abetting a criminal makes you an accomplice; you can be charged with the same crime as the person you aided and abetted." With this in mind, I thought it was not only prudent but reasonable to believe that the Skrellian and Optikam, with the same equipment, armor, clothings, etc., were obvious accomplices to the shenanigans of the Guwan. When I was speaking directly to Cnaym, he disagreed vigorously. He stated that I should have only had the Optikam and Skrellian arrested or fined for Contraband, and then released. He then proceeded, later on, to say that me arresting individuals affiliated with what was showing itself to be a pretty violent group of people who drew in their own blood was "not how that worked at all", and that it was "poor command play". I disagree. I think it is not poor Command play to arrest individuals who belong to a visibly hostile group as shown by the Guwan as accomplices. Cnaym and I also appeared to have a different of opinion on aiding and abetting as a concept itself, as even though it was left vague and ambiguous in Corporate Regulations, he states that it only applied to directly aiding and abetting someone by being present and active during the commission of the crime, and that indirectly aiding and abetting, such as active membership in a dangerous group that sought to subvert command and incited violence, did not apply. I think that it is poor RP to fine and release members of a dangerous group simply because they were not directly involved in the incident. I think that is not a logical thing to do. Eventually, later on in the round, as I was dealing with my missing leg and was unable to directly process people, I had ordered the Optikam and the Skrellian processed. If I am to believe correctly, the Skrellian went into cryogenics while the Optikam wasn't processed for such an absurd amount of time for some reason that I ordered him released simply for the liability issues that were sure to come from that, especially in light of the incoming shuttle for Crew Transfer. The last incident relating to this was the arrest of the Chief Engineer, Oliver Roadman. Now, prior to the arrest of the Chief Engineer, I had been receiving reports from my Detective that the Chief Engineer was allegedly a member of the small group, and that he had subverted Command to such a point that the Captain, Holiday Lynn, was actively attempting to get their mindshield implant removed as to join the group. Now, obviously, this was extremely alarming. I had informed the Chief Medical Officer of this, Qerrbeshi Weashugl (I am sure I butchered that), of this, and Command was soon faxed after that. We both agreed that the Captain had to be removed from their position, and that the Chief Engineer had to be dealt with. So, I had him arrested for aiding and abetting as he was in my lobby, and had presented him the warrant for the Attempted Murder charge which I had used to crack down on the group. After much consideration and debate, and due to the Detective not providing sufficient evidence to hold him, we had him released. At this time, the Captain went into some sort of odd fugue state, and muttered in freespeak before hitting herself with a baton, and ended up being medically restrained. Now, Cnaym and I disagree once again. He said that I should seek the absolute majority support of Command, which was not sensible considering the gravity of the situation revolving around the Chief Engineer subverting the Captain. Even though I had not directly spoken to people about the situation with the Captain and the Chief Engineer, I had liaisoned quite frequently with the Chief Medical Officer, and after he was released we held three command votes, with the results being primarily, the Chief Engineer being kicked out of Command, The Captain being forced to step down from command, and me being elected to Acting Captain. If anything, this ban seems to be resulting primarily from a difference of opinion about ambiguous parts of Corporate Regulations, and a difference of opinion on handling antagonists when it comes to the application of the aiding and abetting charge, which I do not think warrants a removal of a whitelist and a three day Security ban. This is my second, and final point: When Cnaym had closed my ticket, he had said, and forgive me for paraphrasing, essentially the following: "I have conversed with another staff member and looking at your history regarding notes and warning we have decided to apply a three day security ban". I am confused as to how this is factored in in such a matter. The last official server warning that I got was close to half a year ago. I am not sure of the state of my notes, but if warnings from nearly a year ago are being factored into a punishment than I do not know how anyone will be able to keep a whitelist under their belt buckle if they play controversial roles such as Head of Security. Cnaym also spoke about how "new players pick up this quickly" as well, which I would like to be expanded upon as that is also rather quite confusing. Evidence/logs/etc: None, unfortunately. Additional remarks: I would like to see if Cnaym could expand upon the conversation and reviewal of warnings and notes in my "history" that led to me being banned in such a manner, if possible. Up until the last bullet, all the bullet points are essentially paragraphs.
Cnaym Posted April 4, 2020 Posted April 4, 2020 Round ID was b6v-aHti 15 minutes ago, Outboarduniform said: The Optikam, during the chaos, was reported to me as to have stolen medical supplies. That was why I asked during the ticket if there was anything of aiding or other crime that those cultists did, that you had a reason to grab them for. During the ticket you did not mention this point, which is why I found it rather poor to arrest 3-4 people for murder when a single person did something on the other side of the station. My example in this was arresting all miners when someone get's attacked with a pickaxe. Not the best play, but allowed. Sentencing all of them for murder because one of them did it would be overkill in my opinion. The fact that you used a security position to end the round after the first cultist and lock down the rest of the antags was the reason for my decision to give you a timeout, as this pretty much mirrored your last warning. Additional notes of ignoring other command staff prior to that warning and after that warning has lead me to escalate to a ban in this case. Although not part of the whitelist team, I was aware that it would go with a whitelist removal, hence why I urged you to make a complaint and have another staff member look into it. 28 minutes ago, Outboarduniform said: With this in mind, I thought it was not only prudent but reasonable to believe that the Skrellian and Optikam, with the same equipment, armor, clothings, etc., were obvious accomplices to the shenanigans of the Guwan. Which I granted you the arrest for. It is fair to assume that they are somehow connected, or that they might have helped either before or after the fact. Failing to provide any evidence to said things and going straight for the sentencing for murder, a.k.a perma brig them and remove them from the round was poor play. There was ICly little motivation to hold either of them. The skrell in this example was telling other command folks of something they found outside, doing the usual cultist xenoarcheologist discovering some strange book stuff. Instead of questioning them, they got sentenced and perma briged. My main concern here was that finding out more about what this stuff is or happened was not a thing on your mind, it looked like the motivation was to remove the cultists from the round. 38 minutes ago, Outboarduniform said: I think it is not poor Command play to arrest individuals who belong to a visibly hostile group as shown by the Guwan as accomplices. The Skrell and the other unathi wore the cult clothing but came into the brig without much of a fight from my understanding. Their focus was on providing RP for the round, not winning through mechanics. Sentencing them to murder when they have not even shown violent behavior and worked together with security even while being arrested is an easy way to "win" the round, something that should not be done by any security member, especially the HoS. 47 minutes ago, Outboarduniform said: So, I had him arrested for aiding and abetting as he was in my lobby, and had presented him the warrant for the Attempted Murder charge which I had used to crack down on the group. Since the definition of aiding and abetting seems to differ between the two of us: Aiding and abetting to my understanding is actively supporting a crime. That means either providing the tools for it, fully aware of what is going to be done with said tools, or being present and active in the crime itself. Neither where the case for any of the cultists to my understanding in the ticket. Hence why I told you the best you can do with the rest of the cult is contraband for the strange sword. This would be a short stay in the brig, providing RP, sides for the crew to place themselves on yadayadayada... removing them from the round by perma briging all of them did not seem like something any HoS would nor should do. Quote Aiding and abetting a criminal makes you an accomplice; you can be charged with the same crime as the person you aided and abetted. This is a guideline on the wiki. It is not a charge in and of itself. As a command member you are expected to know the mechanics, the community and show the responsibility for smoothing in new players. Your head of security was disregarding the command structure, by placing himself above other command members, which no command member except the captain can do. Not deeming it required at any point to inform central command via a simple fax of what is going on or what his intentions are. Shut down the investigation against the antags by demanding all of them to be briged for murder, removing them from the round. Doing all of the above while rolling around in a wheelchair in the brig, instead of either seeking medical attention or, given that you play a dominian, stepping down and letting someone handle the ISD who can at least walk. As I mentioned before, your prior warning describing exactly this behavior and the two notes around it show a clear disregard for the command structure. Without said prior warning and notes I would have applied a severe warning but after reading it over and talking to the other admins online at that time I decided that a temporary security ban is the lightest punishment for what happened. I decided to go for a temporary and short one, since I am a fan of second chances and hope that you will improve and learn while observing from the outside for a time and then playing as security (if that is a role you wish to play, I don't think blocking you from it permanently is a solution). I do however not think that a head of staff should set these kind of examples for new players and as stated in the conditions for that whitelist, administrative actions taken against you will result in a strip of said whitelist. I am however not perfect, investigating things in round can often be hectic and messy, one of the reasons why I urged you to write this complaint. Having another member of staff check through the logs and taking another look at the round when it's over is a good way to either make sure the judgement was correct, or to remove it if it's deemed not okay. If I punished someone to harsh or innocent, due to missing out critical points, I hope to see the ban changed after the investigation. This is one of the times where I would be happy to be wrong.
Outboarduniform Posted April 6, 2020 Author Posted April 6, 2020 Quote That was why I asked during the ticket if there was anything of aiding or other crime that those cultists did, that you had a reason to grab them for. During the ticket you did not mention this point, which is why I found it rather poor to arrest 3-4 people for murder when a single person did something on the other side of the station. My example in this was arresting all miners when someone get's attacked with a pickaxe. Not the best play, but allowed. Sentencing all of them for murder because one of them did it would be overkill in my opinion. The fact that you used a security position to end the round after the first cultist and lock down the rest of the antags was the reason for my decision to give you a timeout, as this pretty much mirrored your last warning. Additional notes of ignoring other command staff prior to that warning and after that warning has lead me to escalate to a ban in this case. Although not part of the whitelist team, I was aware that it would go with a whitelist removal, hence why I urged you to make a complaint and have another staff member look into it. If there were any communication errors during our ticket than it was most likely on my end, I apologize. Now, for the mining example, I have to disagree with you there. It is fundamentally different when it comes to a violent group of extremists. The miners who are in that group did not sign up to be a miner purely for the subversion of individuals on the station, while the ones who signed up for the cult during the round specifically did. I acknowledge that I didn't really have a chance to feel out their ideology and whatnot because as far as I know the Skrell, who from reports I figured was the mouthpiece, that we nabbed cryo'd after a few minutes in holding. In that regard, it is impossible to say that aiding and abetment did not occur, when after the Guwan siege in Medical they continually tried, and succeeded at subverting the Command structure. I am also not sure how I used my security position to end the round. If anything, the rest of the antags locked themselves down via their actions. By this logic playing Security in general is just locking antags down, regardless of the actions of the antagonists themselves. It was an appropriate response to a group which had subverted even the Station Captain and had put most of the Department in Medical for a reasonably long amount of time. I am also not sure how ignoring other command staff had any factor into this at all. I had liaisoned quite frequently with the Chief Medical Officer, making sure to avoid the use of normal communications due to the subversion of the Chief Engineer and the Captain, and they had given me a very strong impression that they were going to speak to the other heads of staff as well, and we both faxed Central Command around the same time in the round. Quote Which I granted you the arrest for. It is fair to assume that they are somehow connected, or that they might have helped either before or after the fact. Failing to provide any evidence to said things and going straight for the sentencing for murder, a.k.a perma brig them and remove them from the round was poor play. There was ICly little motivation to hold either of them. The skrell in this example was telling other command folks of something they found outside, doing the usual cultist xenoarcheologist discovering some strange book stuff. Instead of questioning them, they got sentenced and perma briged. My main concern here was that finding out more about what this stuff is or happened was not a thing on your mind, it looked like the motivation was to remove the cultists from the round. I fail to see how this is poor play. It is a very realistic response of security personnel to a dangerous group of extremists, most of whom were wandering around with swords and with robes. I have already given my reasonings for the aiding and abetment charges. The skrell, as I have explained, cryo'd before they were even processed to my knowledge. If they were telling other command folk about that, those command folk did not relay that to anyone else over the command radio, so I had no knowledge of this at all. I am not sure what I was left to investigate by the time that all of this had kicked off. The round was nearing its conclusion, the Skrell was in cryo, the Optikam seemed to be feigning absolute ignorance, as far as I know the Detective tried to speak to the Guwan and they did not reveal anything, and the information I had received regarding the Chief Engineer and Captain and the actions taken against them with that information was so late in the round that any investigation would have gone past the end of Crew Transfer. Quote The Skrell and the other unathi wore the cult clothing but came into the brig without much of a fight from my understanding. Their focus was on providing RP for the round, not winning through mechanics. Sentencing them to murder when they have not even shown violent behavior and worked together with security even while being arrested is an easy way to "win" the round, something that should not be done by any security member, especially the HoS. I'm not sure what you mean by this. The weapons that were reported to be found on their person does not really imply nonviolent behavior. Even if you cooperate fully with Security within that regard as well, that does not mean that they, as you had told me in your opinion, essentially be caught, then fined or imprisoned for contraband, and then released to continue subverting Command, and, if the Guwan was anything to go by, return back to violence as soon as the finger of suspicion was off of them. Quote Since the definition of aiding and abetting seems to differ between the two of us: Aiding and abetting to my understanding is actively supporting a crime. That means either providing the tools for it, fully aware of what is going to be done with said tools, or being present and active in the crime itself. Neither where the case for any of the cultists to my understanding in the ticket. Hence why I told you the best you can do with the rest of the cult is contraband for the strange sword. This would be a short stay in the brig, providing RP, sides for the crew to place themselves on yadayadayada... removing them from the round by perma briging all of them did not seem like something any HoS would nor should do. Then yes, the definition does seem to differ between the both of us. I do not think that catching extremists, taking their swords and making them cough up 1000 credits or 15 minutes in the Brig, and then releasing them back out with a smile and a wave is a thing that anyone working in security should do. If the cultists wished to provide RP, and sides for the crew to place themselves on, they did it in a rather poor way. If the entire aim of the cultist players was to subvert Command, as it seems like that is all the other ones were actively trying to do outside of the Guwan siege, I am not sure what result ought to be expected from such an action. Quote This is a guideline on the wiki. It is not a charge in and of itself. As a command member you are expected to know the mechanics, the community and show the responsibility for smoothing in new players. Your head of security was disregarding the command structure, by placing himself above other command members, which no command member except the captain can do. Not deeming it required at any point to inform central command via a simple fax of what is going on or what his intentions are. Shut down the investigation against the antags by demanding all of them to be briged for murder, removing them from the round. Doing all of the above while rolling around in a wheelchair in the brig, instead of either seeking medical attention or, given that you play a dominian, stepping down and letting someone handle the ISD who can at least walk. As I mentioned before, your prior warning describing exactly this behavior and the two notes around it show a clear disregard for the command structure. Without said prior warning and notes I would have applied a severe warning but after reading it over and talking to the other admins online at that time I decided that a temporary security ban is the lightest punishment for what happened. I decided to go for a temporary and short one, since I am a fan of second chances and hope that you will improve and learn while observing from the outside for a time and then playing as security (if that is a role you wish to play, I don't think blocking you from it permanently is a solution). I do however not think that a head of staff should set these kind of examples for new players and as stated in the conditions for that whitelist, administrative actions taken against you will result in a strip of said whitelist. I am however not perfect, investigating things in round can often be hectic and messy, one of the reasons why I urged you to write this complaint. Having another member of staff check through the logs and taking another look at the round when it's over is a good way to either make sure the judgement was correct, or to remove it if it's deemed not okay. If I punished someone to harsh or innocent, due to missing out critical points, I hope to see the ban changed after the investigation. This is one of the times where I would be happy to be wrong. Yes, it is not a charge in and of itself. Which is why no one was thrown into the Brig with no definitive charges. I'm not sure how this shows lack of knowledge of mechanics, or the community. I am also not sure how this relates to smoothing in new players at all. If I recall correctly I did not even have a single cadet in my Department. How was this so? The only two command members that this may be true for that I can think of are the Chief Engineer and the Captain, and as you have read my lengthy dissertations here on that subject you would see that it is quite clear why that occurred in the first place. I am not sure what investigation would have been able to have been occurred. I have already provided my reasoning for this point, however. I did seek medical attention. That is why I had the wheelchair. Funnily enough, I was seriously considering stepping down and was trying my best to lead up to it, but by the time that was being considered, the round length and the current state of command would have, in my opinion, made that move seriously if not outright ineffective. I am still confused as to how this is a disregard for the command structure. What command structure should be followed if it is subverted in its fullest? I am not sure what more I should have done than speaking to the Chief Medical Officer, having Central Informed, and through the Chief Medical Officer presumably have the other Heads of Staff informed as well. I also don't think that ignoring command is really applicable at all, as no command member showed any interest in anything that was occurring in security, and when the Chief Engineer was arrested, and shortly after the Captain ended up going crazy and was detained medically, the other Heads of Staff had already been informed and supportive enough for three unanimous votes to be passed in my, and the Chief Medical Officer's favor.
Cnaym Posted April 6, 2020 Posted April 6, 2020 5 hours ago, Outboarduniform said: It is fundamentally different when it comes to a violent group of extremists. That is the issue though. There was not. 5 hours ago, Outboarduniform said: I do not think that catching extremists, taking their swords and making them cough up 1000 credits or 15 minutes in the Brig, and then releasing them back out with a smile and a wave is a thing that anyone working in security should do. I do not think taking someone in, sentencing them for murder and telling them that's it, is something that a head of security should do. My issue is not the arrest, or investigating what was going on. The sole interest was to brig them for murder, taking them out of the round and winning by doing so. You cannot just make up charges as a head of security to win the round. This was relayed to me not only by the antags, or command, but also the officers handling said people. You know OOCly that they are cultists, your character ICly has no reason to believe that there is a group of crazy people trying to murder everyone. You may suspect that, you may bring them in for searches, question them, have each and every one of them followed by an officer, let the detective figure it out and so on. Removing them from the round was not the right way to handle this. A new player does not have to be a cadet. It could be anyone who watched that, or the antags, learning that security will just make up a charge to remove them. This is not a mindset you want to display. 5 hours ago, Outboarduniform said: How was this so? The only two command members that this may be true for that I can think of are the Chief Engineer and the Captain, and as you have read my lengthy dissertations here on that subject you would see that it is quite clear why that occurred in the first place. There was a research director the entire time, there is also CCIA. If you are in doubt about doing it the right way, many heads of staff have also made use of an ahelp. 5 hours ago, Outboarduniform said: I am still confused as to how this is a disregard for the command structure. What command structure should be followed if it is subverted in its fullest? Restoring the structure by figuring out what is going on and how it can be solved. Not throwing it out the window. ICly the chief engineer was acting weird and the captain seemed to be a bit nuts. That is enough to investigate. That is not enough to have someone arrested, with a charge for murder, just because they are easily grabbed in while visiting the brig. 6 hours ago, Outboarduniform said: Yes, it is not a charge in and of itself. Which is why no one was thrown into the Brig with no definitive charges. The skrell scientist was sentenced without any investigation, simply because the officer handling it had just joined and had no idea what was even the reason for the charges. They asked to be allowed to go to cryo because the round was over for them, due to said sentence without any explanation. I will await for the log dive of another admin. As I said before, the situation might have been simply misunderstood by most parties involved, but the tickets and the situation printed a rather negative picture during the round.
Flamingo Posted April 14, 2020 Posted April 14, 2020 Hello. @MattAtlas and I will be taking this complaint. Please give us some time to sift through round logs and review both testimonies. Thanks.
Flamingo Posted April 25, 2020 Posted April 25, 2020 Alright sorry it took a while. I am going to try and keep things as brief as possible:@MattAtlas and I both went through the logs separately and came to the same conclusion. We'll be upholding the decision made by Cnaym. Simply put, it's really shitty to be uninvolved in stuff as an antagonist and then get put in the brig for aiding someone you didn't even interact with. It pretty much grinds the round to a halt and isn't something we really want to see happening. At the most, the other cultists could have been charged with contraband for their weapons and questioned as to their involvement with the Guwan. You can certainly suspect they are working together, but until they actually work together, you can't apply the same charges to the uninvolved parties. Unless there are any further questions or concerns, I will be locking and archiving this in 24 hours time.
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