Staff Complaint - BoryaTheSlayer

[Guest Menown]

BYOND Key: Menown

Staff BYOND Key: BoryaTheSlayer

Game ID: b7R-cbaR reportedly. Not sure but Alberyk relayed this was it.

Reason for complaint: On June 27th I was banned after commenting in OOC after the round had ended about antag play that occurred. Random bombings occurred on the surface and lead to a very annoying attempt at completing transfer due to antags running out of time to do anything and to begin bombing the surface. I had made comment to it, and then proceeded to offer solutions to how to handle the lack of a gimmick during transfer, as the majority of players are against any last-minute attempts to rush b cyka blyat that occur during transfer.

For this I was notified via adminhelp that I was presenting a very negative stance in OOC and that my apparently long history of this (which I myself have reviewed via my notes - the two notable incidents occurred once again following issues with antags. Clear violation of IC in OOC rules, and I was particularly nasty during the exchanges in OOC.) During my appeal, I was notified of another warning for OOC behavior which doesn't apparently exist in my warnings themselves, as present in some of the collected evidence, nor was I able to find it in my notes themselves.

I was also notified that other issues lead to me being banned, but not told what they were in the admin PMs I received in round. Nor were I told what they were in my unban appeal. I was given a series of incidents that occurred - One incident where I was warned, and then later banned for EORG that came from me fucking around and testing to see how much damage unbuckling causes during transit, and my previous instances of joke names, namely the "mock greytide IPC Perri Noya" which I admit was an issue in name only which is clearly a play on Paranoia, but I fail to find issue in appearing to be a bald shell wearing a grey jumpsuit, trying to assist people. We've had numerous people do this as regular humans and otherwise without issue.

Other incidents of joke names I had were a diona chef and bartender named "A Salad Most Valid" and "A Round Worth Joining" both deemed unacceptable (except by Yonnimer and Neinbox, the loremin at the time and an admin - not respectively) as they contained metareferences despite fitting their job descriptions aptly. I was also noted on my diona, arguably my oldest character "The Sound Of A Supernova Bringing Forth The End To An Age Of Sentient Life And Thrusting The Memory Of Its Song Across The Universe" who I had taken to utilizing an acronym of its name for (which was later approved by Neinbox when they were a Diona loremin, but had since refrained from using as diona suck and the name was breaking PDAs and the manifest which wasn't my intention.

There was also my shell nurse who was a very clearly robotic nurse named Pomf Equals Three, who referred to coworkers as oni-chan and and the CMO as senpai. I wasn't aware that the name wasn't allowed and played them on and off for a week or so until I was told to stop, which I had. I wasn't actually warned for this, but I was noted for it. One actual warning occured, which was from a diona I joined as and instantly cryoed afterward before I was even warned. A cargo technician joined named Harry Potter, so I took the moment to join as a diona QM named "He Who Must Not Be Named" and cryo'd instantly as I knew that wouldn't fly. I was later warned for this which I acknowledged.

The most recent of the joke names was "A Round Worth Joining" which I had been told was acceptable and then was later retracted upon ruling by a headmin. Whenever notified that the names I elect to choose aren't acceptable, I don't continue to use them, and when I can I consult with required loremins for the species so I can sign off on the names I use.

The purpose of this complaint in its essence, following all of this is that I was reportedly banned for a series of non-specific issues at the time, which were deemed toxic behavior (which isn't listed in my notes from what I've gathered), series of chucklefucking through EORG (acceptable, but I had been already banned, and warned for which was supposed to be removed as it no longer applies when you're banned, so I was treated through double punishment for something that shouldn't have even existed given it still exists in my notes), joke names (which are largely harmless, non-toxic, and easily rectified and have since been adapted to asking before I choose a name - Alberyk can confirm this given I have spoken already with him on what're acceptable adopted names for Tajara living in Tau Ceti), and incidents of OOC behavior, which all stemmed from moments of anger and outbursts from when I've felt slighted due to antag interactions that largely felt like targeted instances to me.

Considering my initial unban appeal was locked within an hour of it being opened, with me effectively being told to "review what I had typed" with little input otherwise, and the circumstances of false warnings being used against me, and things that aren't outright recorded via my notes, I feel the ban was largely baseless and the instances of my OOC behavior in the round (exceedingly mild considering the things I could have said, as shown in the evidence provided) were used as the stepping stone to remove me from the community for reasons that haven't outright been revealed, as I haven't been given absolute examples of my supposed "toxic behavior" and Borya refuses to communicate with me on the subject itself.

Evidence/logs/etc: Evidence presented as attachments are logs that occurred during the round that lead to my ban. Other logs are screenshots from my unban appeal, and my current ban warning. Some evidence consists of conversations with staff via discord where I received approvals for things, or otherwise.

[Garnascus]

Alright i am just gonna post what i see from my end. I will post the notes i see for every administrative action you have received this year. What an "administrative action" means is anytime a staff member has PMed you and told you not to do a thing or banned you for doing a thing.

 

So i just want to make a brief comment here. Already from ten thousand feet away i see pretty standard escalation as far as our punishments go. You have a note regarding "dont do this thing" and then a 24 hour ban about a month later for doing that thing again. So far everything looks normal

Here is that pod incident i think you mentioned. I do not mean to demean you or anything but it is honestly a miracle you where not banned for this. The administrator in question chose instead to defer the punishment with an explicit note to ban you the next time you do something dumb. This is something we occasionally do. 

Not much to say here, this was pretty silly. It is a server rule that we must maintain character even at round end. I think it is fair to say that up until this point you could be described as "on thin ice". I say that not as a threat or some sort of spooky looming admin overlord waiting to ban you but a realistic evaluation of your history so far. You continued a particular pattern of behavior and you banned for a week. This is the most severe ban we can place outside of a permaban and a permaban is the next step from a week ban.

So before i go into the latest ban placed by @BoryaTheSlayer i want to comment a little on the note @MattAtlas placed here. Out of context it may seem like a "fuck this guy get him out of here" or some explicit note of us trying to metagrudge you. We try our best to punish players and dish out appropriate punishments but as i have been headmin for a number of years now i will tell you our team as a whole is extraordinarily lenient, to a fault at times. Overall i think this is a good policy for a variety of reasons but occassionally we get people who cycle between temp-bans for far too long. Notes like this are an attempt to get other staff to actually read players notes when deciding punishment. The main idea here is there is a point where a player is on their last straw and we do place notes indicating this.

Now, on to borya's permaban. Again from ten thousand feet away it would seem to be a logical progression. In a relatively short period of time you've racked up quite the rap sheet. The screenshot you linked detailing the comments you made in OOC where pretty rude and they absolutely are something we crack down on. Nobody wants to look at OOC and see their play being described as lazy, forced or desperate. With all of this together its really hard for me to find any weight to this complaint. It seems to me you continually broke the rules and punishment was escalated against you according to our internal policy. 

[Guest Menown]

6 hours ago, Garnascus said:

Here is that pod incident i think you mentioned. I do not mean to demean you or anything but it is honestly a miracle you where not banned for this. The administrator in question chose instead to defer the punishment with an explicit note to ban you the next time you do something dumb. This is something we occasionally do. 

I was banned for the pod incident, it even says that in the note. Why is the warning Alberyk gave me still being held against me when it should have been removed when I was banned for it later? You don't issue a warning for speeding as you attest a guy for reckless driving.

With the way Matt has acted to me in DMs makes that note even more malicious, especially given in the past he's threatened me with a ban in the general discord when Alberyk was actively being a dick to me.

The way that is even phrased implies that even an accidental rule break would be met with a hammer, which is just overkill. If you have no policy of telling people when they are at risk of something when they themselves don't know it, there's an issue there because it feels like that you're just lying in wait to ambush. There wasn't even anything in what you said regarding my supposed history of toxic behavior.

Do you ban everybody that makes adverse statements on how antags perform at round end? Because that's a common thing here. 

Edited July 10, 2020 by Menown
A word.

[MattAtlas]

29 minutes ago, Menown said:

With the way Matt has acted to me in DMs makes that note even more malicious, especially given in the past he's threatened me with a ban in the general discord when Alberyk was actively being a dick to me.

You have so many notes that it's unreasonable to continue warning and noting you as people have. Moreover you openly admitted to me in DMs that you broke the rules because it's funny. I'm not sure why I'd hold a grudge against you of all people, or how this can even be seen as one.

About the ban, I specifically told Garnascus to handle that incident with Alberyk in DMs right as I PM'd you. I told you to stop continuing the argument so that you two would stop. Again, I didn't single you out then, and I didn't single you out now. I also find it especially egregious that you'd bring both these incidents up after you apologize for your conduct in DMs and say that you understand after.

 

Edited July 10, 2020 by MattAtlas

[Guest Menown]

12 minutes ago, MattAtlas said:

Moreover you openly admitted to me in DMs that you broke the rules because it's funny

People fuck around at round end a lot. People break character, throw things, and generally fuck around. Yes I took it too far and I admitted that.

 

12 minutes ago, MattAtlas said:

I specifically told Garnascus to handle that incident with Alberyk in DMs right as I PM'd you. I told you to stop continuing the argument so that you two would stop. Again, I didn't single you out then, and I didn't single you out now. I also find it especially egregious that you'd bring both these incidents up after you apologize for your conduct in DMs and say that you understand after.

I'm not privy to your private conversations. The only thing I was aware of was Alberyk telling me to fuck off then you threatening me with a ban. Keinto noticed and made note of it but nobody even mentioned it.

You've been relatively unprofessional with me when trying to discuss things seriously with you and then you decide to fault me when I treat things less seriously than they are.

I'm fine with apologizing for my behavior when I get out of line, which I was when I went after Alberyk. I did apologize to him, and you for my behavior but my statements on you are how you yourself handled it.

Edited July 10, 2020 by Menown
A word. Phones r hard.

[Garnascus]

6 hours ago, Menown said:

I was banned for the pod incident, it even says that in the note. Why is the warning Alberyk gave me still being held against me when it should have been removed when I was banned for it later? You don't issue a warning for speeding as you attest a guy for reckless driving.

Right, so occasionally we have an issue crop up where we expunge or remove a note/warning from someone but it still remains visible when we search up a players notes with the show-player-info command. This is one of those cases, the specific warning was altered to a week ban instead. There is now a link to the complaint explaining this situation in your notes. I do not believe this changes my opinion of your history as i have outlined in my original post.

7 hours ago, Menown said:

The way that is even phrased implies that even an accidental rule break would be met with a hammer, which is just overkill. If you have no policy of telling people when they are at risk of something when they themselves don't know it, there's an issue there because it feels like that you're just lying in wait to ambush.

I would say i have gone to great lengths to explicitly explain away the idea that we are "waiting to ambush you". It is common knowledge that we escalate punishments here at aurora. Assuming no pattern of behavior you may end up with a note or a warning. This can then progress to a 24 hour ban, a three day ban, a week ban and finally a permanent ban. These are not required checks to meet. It is possible for example for someone to receive three warnins and then a week ban or five notes and then a three day ban. It is possible for someone to be skipped right to the end and be permabanned on the spot. This severe judgement is generally only reserved for griefers who join as "mike hawk" and spam the n word over the radio. 

I will again point to the evidence. We see clear escalation of punishments. 

7 hours ago, Menown said:

Do you ban everybody that makes adverse statements on how antags perform at round end? Because that's a common thing here. 

No we do not ban everyone who does that. A ban is not a one-size-fits-all. It depends on the person and their history. I can tell you that is something we do not tolerate. We take action against it where we see it. 

[Guest Menown]

25 minutes ago, Garnascus said:

It is possible for someone to be skipped right to the end and be permabanned on the spot. This severe judgement is generally only reserved for griefers who join as "mike hawk" and spam the n word over the radio. 

 

26 minutes ago, Garnascus said:

No we do not ban everyone who does that. A ban is not a one-size-fits-all. It depends on the person and their history.

Or if it's the wrong person to do something you don't punish everybody for? If you don't fairly deal out punishment, what's the point in it?

[Garnascus]

1 minute ago, Menown said:

Or if it's the wrong person to do something you don't punish everybody for? If you don't fairly deal out punishment, what's the point in it?

I do not understand what you just said.

[Guest Menown]

33 minutes ago, Garnascus said:

 It is possible for someone to be skipped right to the end and be permabanned on the spot. This severe judgement is generally only reserved for griefers who join as "mike hawk" and spam the n word over the radio.

You'll jump straight to permabanning if the wrong person complains in OOC, something you have admitted you don't punish everybody for, yet have decided to punish me for.

[Garnascus]

Err....no.... that is not what i said. I will try to explain it better.

So, why do we have escalating punishments? The reason is because the overwhelming majority of players are playing in good faith. They make some mistakes every now and then but very rarely are they intentionally trying to fuck with people or ruin other's experience. Thus we escalate punishments in the hopes the behavior gets curbed before they are removed from the community. A griefer is someone who is not playing in good faith and just here to ruin other's experience. The "mike hawk" example i gave is one classic form this individual takes. Thus they are immediately permabanned because its clear they are not here to play.

You are not going to be permabanned for saying the wrong thing and being classified as a griefer. While a specific definition does not really exist there are a number of actions a griefer might partake in such as

1. Max capping arrivals at round end "because its funny"

2. Spamming the n word in IC radio

3. Joining as the warden and looting the army to go on a shooting spree

6 minutes ago, Menown said:

You'll jump straight to permabanning if the wrong person complains in OOC, something you have admitted you don't punish everybody fo

So, again i went to great lengths to properly explain my position. You're attempting to use one portion of what i said as evidence that we are inconsistent. You are misunderstanding me. I explained to you we do not BAN everyone who does what you did in OOC. We DO take action against those that we see. Again, notes and a players history are taken into account so someone with a clean record is likely to get off with a note and a "Please do not do this" from a staff member. In your case your record was not clean. Thus you did not get away with just a note. 

[Guest Menown]

23 minutes ago, Garnascus said:

We DO take action against those that we see.

I fail to believe that or it wouldn't be something that happens a lot.

23 minutes ago, Garnascus said:

Thus we escalate punishments in the hopes the behavior gets curbed before they are removed from the community.

I went from getting a day ban to take some time off because a friend saw I was upset to getting a week ban for chucklefucking during a round end, to getting permabanned for saying antags that round were awful. The clear thing to me from my ban reason itself was that you guys were looking for justification you remove me, hence the several mentions of "toxic behavior" reported in my unban appeal, something that despite this still hasn't been touched upon.

Promise me answers to these and I'll end this pitiful attempt at me gaining some insight to try and better myself:

1) Explain why me complaining about antags required me being removed from the community itself instead of a logical thing like an OOC ban if that's clearly the issue here.

2) Explain what behavior was considered a long period of toxic behavior worth banning me over, because reported examples of chucklefucking that usually affected me, joke names, and other forms of menial fun really don't seem toxic to me.

3) Explain why it's okay to instantly shut down my unban appeal within an hour of it being posted, by the same admin that had me blocked on discord, and performed the banning of me.

4) Explain why two people that commit the same infraction aren't held to the same standard? Why is my amount of notes in play here when the vast majority of them aren't related to any major offense, are otherwise benign, or jokes by administration staff. Why is the fact I've been here longer and played longer than anybody else considered a downside, considering I've been able to accrue more notes (accidental or otherwise).

5) Explain why it's acceptable to demand somebody change their behavior and to isolate them? How can they be expected to change if you defenestrate them from the castle walls and tell them they can come back when they're better, without explaining what they can change? The only one who's offered any input that he's observed that can be considered toxic is Alberyk, and none of it was listed here.

Edited July 10, 2020 by Menown
A word: pt 2 - the phonening

[Garnascus]

1 minute ago, Menown said:

I fail to believe that or it wouldn't be something that happens a lot.

This statement is an abuse of logic. Any system of punishment and justice no matter how small or grand is continuous. There is always a cycle of people breaking the law/the rules and being punished and handled. It is impossible to reduce this number to zero. We try our best and we do what we can, no more. 

5 minutes ago, Menown said:

1) Explain why me complaining about antags required me being removed from the community itself instead of a logical thing like an OOC ban if that's clearly the issue here.

There is no such thing as an OOC ban. There are job bans and server bans. If you continue to break the rules you will get banned. You continued to break the rules. You got banned

6 minutes ago, Menown said:

Explain what behavior was considered a long period of toxic behavior worth banning me over, because reported examples of chucklefucking that usually affected me, joke names, and other forms of menial fun really don't seem toxic to me.

I do not know why @BoryaTheSlayer chose the words he did and to be honest i am not interested in defending them. I see that you continued breaking server rules. You got banned for breaking server rules. That is as far as this can be entertained

10 minutes ago, Menown said:

3) Explain why it's okay to instantly shut down my unban appeal within an hour of it being posted, by the same admin that had me blocked on discord, and performed the banning of me.

That is not what happened. Borya did not "instantly shut down the appeal". He made five separate posts attempting to explain the issue to you. 

12 minutes ago, Menown said:

4) Explain why two people that commit the same infraction aren't held to the same standard? Why is my amount of notes in play here when the vast majority of them aren't related to any major offense, are otherwise benign, or jokes by administration staff

They are, actually. The more rules you break the greater chance you have of being banned the next time you break the rules. There is no hard-line number here like "three strikes you're out". I screenshotted all the notes i believe are relevant to this case. I believe just the things i have posted here are enough to justify permabanning you. 

 

16 minutes ago, Menown said:

5) Explain why it's acceptable to demand somebody change their behavior and to isolate them? How can they be expected to change if you defenestrate from the castle walls and tell them they can come back when they're better, without explaining what they can change?

It is not our job to be armchair psychologists. It is not our job to try to change you. We are not equipped with either the time or resources to change your personality. All we can do is tell you what not to do. In your case stop breaking the rules. Stop flinging salt in OOC. Stop opening the escape pod shuttle and messing around at round end. Stop being rude to staff. All of these are pretty reasonable demands. 

If there is nothing else this complaint is denied. 

[Guest Menown]

Effectively you're unable to provide anything for me to improve except for things I'm unable to work on now. My unban was denied so I can't work on not salting in OOC. I already stopped chucklefucking. I stopped being rude to staff, even when they're rude to me (outside an instance with Borya which I had already apologised for). You've essentially told me to work on things without allowing me to work on them. Unless you're implying I should work on them elsewhere and I should appeal later and you'll just take my word on whether I've improved.

8 minutes ago, Garnascus said:

That is not what happened. Borya did not "instantly shut down the appeal"

An outright lie. I reported it to Alberyk who told me to contact Borya on the forums to request it be opened, which he did.

[Garnascus]

2 minutes ago, Menown said:

Effectively you're unable to provide anything for me to improve except for things I'm unable to work on now

Your goal in an unban appeal would be to convince us you will not repeat the things you got banned for. Things that i have listed here. 

 

3 minutes ago, Menown said:

An outright lie. I reported it to Alberyk who told me to contact Borya on the forums to request it be opened, which he did.

No i just did not know about this part. There is no record of it when i view the thread so i just see a conversation history between you and borya. Regardless it sounds like your own experience renders your original question moot. You had an issue with borya shutting the thread down, you sent a PM to a head admin and they handled it and had it re-opened. Very interesting.

[Guest Menown]

1 minute ago, Garnascus said:

Regardless it sounds like your own experience renders your original question moot.

Explain? Clearly there's something wrong with the banning moderator instantly suppressing an attempt to appeal a ban, is there not? I followed the chain of command and reached out to an admin, following what they suggested.

 

3 minutes ago, Garnascus said:

Your goal in an unban appeal would be to convince us you will not repeat the things you got banned for. Things that i have listed here. 

Also not what Borya has said. Whether I am not going to repeat them is not the case, as per what Borya has said in the appeal. Whether I am willing to learn from them or not, doesn't matter. All that matters is I am gone.

[Garnascus]

3 minutes ago, Menown said:

Also not what Borya has said.

The length of punishments are of course another factor i forgot to mention. Permabans are pretty rare and severe, they are not generally lifted after such a short period of time. There is no time limit i can give you. There is nothing more i can say here. 

[Guest Menown]

So, what I'm surmising here is despite my willingness to fix what I can, stuff that hadn't already stopped (OOC behavior), I'm not allowed to fix them. There's no avenue for coming back, and there's no ability to fix them. I'm just supposed to say one day in the future that they're fixed and all's golden.

You also didn't touch on the following:

14 minutes ago, Menown said:

Clearly there's something wrong with the banning moderator instantly suppressing an attempt to appeal a ban, is there not? I followed the chain of command and reached out to an admin, following what they suggested.

Nor did you explain what you meant by what you said regarding it.

[Garnascus]

20 minutes ago, Menown said:

So, what I'm surmising here is despite my willingness to fix what I can, stuff that hadn't already stopped (OOC behavior), I'm not allowed to fix them. There's no avenue for coming back

If at this point that is the conclusion you are drawing i am not interested in convincing you otherwise. 

21 minutes ago, Menown said:

Nor did you explain what you meant by what you said regarding it.

There was an issue, you pmed a head about the issue, they handled the issue. Thats it.

[Guest Menown]

8 minutes ago, Garnascus said:

If at this point that is the conclusion you are drawing i am not interested in convincing you otherwise. 

That's the conclusion I've been given. I attempted to do a ban appeal where I showed a willingness to work on the issues presented in my ban. I was told it's good that I'm willing to work on things, but two weeks isn't enough. I've been given no timeframe from you or the banning mod who handled my unban appeal itself. There's nothing I can do (because I can't show I've worked on the issues shown), there's no time I can apply for another appeal, and there's no point complaining about how Borya handled this, because you've deemed everything above board. There's no recourse here, given there are no options.

I'm asking very nicely if you'd at least give me the courtesy of telling me to leave and not come back instead of pretending there's some way for me to return in the future, because I'm not seeing it.

Edited July 11, 2020 by Menown
Even on a computer I make typos. I'm a mess.

[Guest Menown]

In light of reviewing other ban requests, within the last two months, somebody was recently unbanned after a whopping six days of their permaban. They had showcased a history of behavior directly related to their ban and was trusted enough with an unban to work on their behavior. Nowhere in their complaint did they show acceptance of what they did wrong, in fact they said they disagreed with the ban but were willing to work on their issues, exactly as I had said.

All I was asking for was a second chance and to try and fix my behavior. The only way I can show I have fixed my behavior is with a second chance, but I was met with "two weeks isn't enough". I dedicated almost a decade to this place, and two weeks wasn't enough for me, but six days was enough for somebody else.

I don't agree with being permabanned, but I do agree with what I did wrong. I do have an issue with getting angry and releasing it into OOC. I had been working on my interactions with administration, and hadn't had any instances of chucklefucking since my weekban (which I have admitted several times was deserved.)

I am only asking for an opportunity to fix myself and to show that I have been working toward it. Locking me out won't do that, nor is it fair when others have been shown greater leniency.

Edited July 11, 2020 by Menown
Attached the appeal in question for reference.

[Garnascus]

As i have said many times now every case is different. These whataboutisms from the archives are not going to help you. I am not going to continue talking in circles. I have explained myself pretty clearly here. Appeal the ban in the future at your leisure or do not. End of discussion. 

Locking and archiving.