[Resolved] Genetic Engineering

[Erik Tiber]

Type (e.g. Planet, Faction, System): Biological Engineering

Founding/Settlement Date (if applicable): 12,000 BCE (First examples of genetic modification caused by human activity); 1973 (First direct transfer of DNA from one organism to another),

Region of Space: Inhabited areas.

Controlled by (if not a faction): Regulated by the Solarian equivalent of the FDA.

Other Snapshot information: The human genome project was completed in 2003. The first FDA-approved gene therapy experiment took place in 1990 in the United states. From 1990 to 2014, 1,700 clinical trials were conducted with a variety of different gene therapy methods.

Long Description: Genetic engineering would have a significant role in everyday life. As the first 'designer babies' were born in the first half of the 21st century, genetic engineering became more common as the procedure was made cheaper and more safe. In general, the vast majority of the population is at least genefixed, nearly eliminating genetic disorders, increasing lifespan and general health, and a number of other minor modifications. Genemods are primarily administered in a manner similar to vaccines at birth before the child is born.

Many have some manner of augment, whether it be increased strength or intelligence, increased compatibility with prosthetics and implants, or a modified circadian cycle requiring only four hours of sleep a night.

Due to there being nearly 500 years of experience with genetically modifying organisms, the science is now a mature field and basic genemods are either free in most jurisdictions (as part of the local public healthcare system), government subsidized, or low cost.

Designer babies being designed in their parent's image is not unheard of, and this can lead to emotional problems later in life.

In general, genemods have widened social inequality, with the rich able to afford more extensive modifications. Many claim that this has resulted in a nigh-permanent upper class with low social mobility. However, these people are generally dirty communists and you should not listen to their propaganda.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

What affect does any of this have on players on the server? People that get modifications tend to be seen as Mary Sues and I've seen complaints and hostility to anyone not looking 'normal' in an OOC sense, so saying it's commonplace would make yet another unnecessary dissonance between lore and player mindset.

As it stands genetic modification is expensive and regulated. It's not something people get just cuz, or at least legally.

[Erik Tiber]

What affect does any of this have on players on the server? People that get modifications tend to be seen as Mary Sues and I've seen complaints and hostility to anyone not looking 'normal' in an OOC sense, so saying it's commonplace would make yet another unnecessary dissonance between lore and player mindset.

I'm not sure how "not having a crippling genetic disorder" or "having a mildly better working under the hood" is snowflakey.

If people are so up in arms over the idea of the Sol Alliance not being in the dark ages and this not being the year 2015, I would very much like some links.

If you want to restrict many possibilities for characters, in a completely unrealistic manner, cutting off opportunities for interesting characters over something that should be trivially solved, then that's a poor policy.

As it stands genetic modification is expensive and regulated. It's not something people get just cuz, or at least legally.

That's silly. It's been around four hundred years and this makes little sense. You may as well argue that vaccinations are expensive because it's so 'recent' or whatever. It should have been the better part of four centuries.

There's no reason for it to be illegal either, it's a rather important public health thing.

EDIT: You will also note that I did not make a single reference to genetic modification that would actually change appearance. Simply something stating that, in the background, most people have minor gene mods to just fix genetic disorders is hardly making people 'freaks'. This is rather restrictive for almost no gain.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Guest

[Guest]

I kinda like this actually. It seems like what this is is that the only people who would have super snowflakey genetic modifications would have to be ridiculously wealthy in the first place. Not something most people on the station are.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

You misinterpret what I say. I'm not saying we're banning vaccinations. yet

Mechanically and generally people aren't robust, disease-immune superhumans. We can easily say gene therapies are commonplace, obviously. We'll have people with backgrounds as babies who would have had a genetic disorder but got it smoothed over with the gene therapies or whatever.

Our botany is a big example of GMO crops; they start out growing incredibly fast, and are actively modified further if you use the right tools. You can even grow meat with watermelons. All of this is fine. We even have a genetics lab that unlocks superhuman abilities. That's... Mostly fine.

The problem is human genetic enhancement. We don't want to allow a lore justification for trying to hulk someone out or make genetics less regulated on-station because "everyone does it lol". Outside medicinal and commercial uses as we have now, it's regulated heavily. This allows us to have people with modifications, but it's not commonplace enough to be a headache for admins or moderators, or other players who would see them as unnecessarily snowflakey.

[Erik Tiber]

You misinterpret what I say. I'm not saying we're banning vaccinations.

They're still genemods. I was told that genemods at all are apparently super expensive.

Mechanically and generally people aren't robust, disease-immune superhumans. We can easily say gene therapies are commonplace, obviously. We'll have people with backgrounds as babies who would have had a genetic disorder but got it smoothed over with the gene therapies or whatever.

No, they're not superhumans. They don't need to be, it could just be a bit stronger immune system, and possibly something or other about healing, with all this varying from person to person. It's not like the viruses on station are anything like the typical fare you'd see, and being able to say, in-backstory heal twice as fast as an unmodded person doesn't mean you have to change the in-game healing rate, because that's already just abstracted.

Our botany is a big example of GMO crops; they start out growing incredibly fast, and are actively modified further if you use the right tools. You can even grow meat with watermelons. All of this is fine. We even have a genetics lab that unlocks superhuman abilities. That's... Mostly fine.

The problem is enhancement. We don't want to allow a lore justification for trying to hulk someone out or make genetics less regulated on-station because "everyone does it lol". Outside medicinal and commercial uses as we have now, it's regulated heavily.

No, you don't understand. The majority of genemods could simply be applied while the fetus is still in the womb (or womb-equivalent if they're growing in an iron womb), rather normal stuff to increase lifespan, fix genetic disorders. The vast majority of people evidently have modifications to increase compatibility with prosthetic limbs and implants anyway. Besides, there is a vast world of difference between only needing four or two hours a sleep a night and hulking out.

Something like hulk is a radical enhancement that wouldn't be common. This is genetics testing anyway, not issuing FDA-approved genemods to infants, and besides, NT already has the justification of "Walking off with unapproved genemods is industrial espionage/stealing company secrets/whatever" and sue their asses off. Or they could expose themselves to liability if a geneticist rampages and injures someone on the station after giving themselves modifications, if apparently NT didn't take proper safety measures.

Something like hulking out would probably give you a good chance of breaking your own bones from your strength or something, or perhaps causing some manner of circulatory problem or god knows what else, with whatever the hell they did to themselves.

The vast majority of serious (as in, notable) enhancements would mostly be among rich people who make more money than you and sign your paychecks.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

What was meant by genetic modifications being expensive was anything cosmetic; anything that isn't healthcare-centric. Mechanics-wise, we've shifted down the path of cybernetics and prosthesis over that of genetics anyway; we have mechanical everythings. There's nothing stopping you from having a character that was given gene treatments to make him healthier than most people, that stuff is generalized into being "Duh" territory and not needing extensive lore and justification.

Where the line is drawn is for anything excessive, obtuse, over the top, or something that would give characters an unreasonable x y or z. I don't want to lore justify a character who's skin was genetically modified to undergo photosynthesis so he asks for devs to make his character not require nutrients. This is an extreme example, but it's an analogy for the type of thing we aren't allowing in-universe.

EDIT:

Also, vaccinations aren't genetic modifications. False analogy + condescending tone makes for a poor debate partner. b nic pls

[SierraKomodo]

EDIT: You will also note that I did not make a single reference to genetic modification that would actually change appearance. Simply something stating that, in the background, most people have minor gene mods to just fix genetic disorders is hardly making people 'freaks'. This is rather restrictive for almost no gain.

 

So, for example, someone having genetic modification to reduce the likelihood of receiving a genetic disorder/disease that runs in their family, later on in life? (Ziva Mo'Taki's heart issue comes to mind with this one - Was trying to think of a 'real world' application for this, so to speak)

I could get behind something like that as a medical practice in the day and age the lore is set in, although what Jackboot's said in the last couple posts more or less hits on what I'm thinking of for this right now (It's honestly the only application I can see for it at the moment; Something might hit me later on)

P.S.: There was a character Rasine and Jo'Zah ran into the other day, that mention he wished he was Tajarran (Not in a fetish way, either). Was interesting, even if that discussion was rather short lived due to red-alert-oh-god-oh-god; Genetic engineering/research could have a play in things like that

[Erik Tiber]

What was meant by genetic modifications being expensive was anything cosmetic; anything that isn't healthcare-centric. Mechanics-wise, we've shifted down the path of cybernetics and prosthesis over that of genetics anyway; we have mechanical everythings. There's nothing stopping you from having a character that was given gene treatments to make him healthier than most people, that stuff is generalized into being "Duh" territory and not needing extensive lore and justification.

I see. I thought so as well, which is why I was surprised that this was brought up, because I thought that this was precisely the case.

I have a feeling that the lore team is not on the same page.

Example:

We should also probably not have alcohol give you actual liver damage so absurdly quickly.

 

Problem is, then we'd have millions oh heavy weight characters

Not a problem at all.

Like others have said, it's a minor RP detail. Anyway, they have genetic engineering now. Why wouldn't they give people stronger livers? Stronger immune systems, generally more efficient organs. You'd only see a tiny minority with zero modification anyway (Because that stuff gets inherited too), it's not like people are a fan of their kids getting some debilitating genetic disorder and not at least modify their kids to eliminate that risk factor and give other minor general augments.

*snip*

 

Problem is Erik you used "Genetic manipulation" to defend another point, and Gollee did say that barely anyone has it. It's controlled and immensely expensive.

My suggestion was that some people might have better livers because genemods, which could give a reason for some people to be able to be heavyweights.

 

We should really, really nerf infections. They should not kill people so absurdly quickly. Hell, if anything people should have far stronger immune systems than today. Genetic engineering yo, it's hands down affordable to just about everyone, only people who wouldn't get any genemods are those who choose not to.

 

Expensive and regulated in our current lore, just discussed it.

 

Ok Erik, yet again. It is regulated and it IS expensive. The lore team decided. Do you know how much money and resources it costs to have scientists research things for a year with top of the line equipment? A lot. Business have to make their money back, so they charge crazy amounts for it. Which people are willing to pay sometimes because it's advanced technology.

What I'm hearing from you seems to contradict what I've heard elsewhere.

Could you provide clarification?

Where the line is drawn is for anything excessive, obtuse, over the top, or something that would give characters an unreasonable x y or z. I don't want to lore justify a character who's skin was genetically modified to undergo photosynthesis so he asks for devs to make his character not require nutrients. This is an extreme example, but it's an analogy for the type of thing we aren't allowing in-universe.

That's pretty cool and I agree with more extreme or silly things, things that would be silly or flat-out biologically impossible (which generally covers most of the undesirable stuff too).

[Frances]

I sorta miss super-snowflakes. Like, I don't think we've actually /had/ player complaints existing solely due to poor RP abilities on these boards.

But as much as I want to see some 8-feet tall characters with sparkly eyes again, I'm a bit more wary of those pernicious and subtle uses of genetic snowflakery, like "she has purple eyes and a very cute face". Do we want to risk lifting that barrier, for the sake of seeing some intelligent and interesting roleplay pertaining to genetic modifications?

[Guest]

Do what the United States government did after the Prohibition. Legitimize it, but control it. People who are dumb about genetic modifications or go overboard will get talked to.

I mean, really. How have we not thought of this? Literally, it's the best solution on any matter when it comes to bad writing or roleplay. You talk to them, you point out what's terribad, you tell them what could be improved from the good parts, and what can be nullified.

Ta-da, constructive criticism has forged an example and standard that the problem person will then pass onto others that make the same mistakes they did. It's like this method is a dying breed or something.

[Jakers457]

Constructive criticism opposed to calling something Snowflakey? By god, that might just work.

But I'm going to side with Tiber to some extent, it makes sense given current day developments and the fact people can apparently live a few hundred years lore wise.

Edit: It's cloning that should be expensive. How much do you reckon biomass costs to develop ? And we seem to clone people liberally.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Heads-up, I just read the OP and not the other posts because it's too early in the morning for me to care.

Gene sciences aren't easy.

Sure, we've mapped out the entire human genome. Doesn't exactly mean we can change it at will. It's easier to modify the genetic structures of simpler organisms, like in corn or snails or what have you. It's much, much more difficult to do it with humans. Gene therapy would probably be widespread, to deal with cancer and AIDS in the future. But genemods would not be. The human genetic structure mutates constantly, and has a lot of junk DNA and bits that can end up fucking someone's life up if changed or removed. You could think of changing the human genome in terms of organic coding, though much more difficult, I suppose. You fuck one thing up and suddenly compiling errors all around, person has massive tumors and/or is dead.

Also, simply giving someone an injection/implant would not be sufficient to change their entire genetic structure. You'd literally have to change every cell in their body.

Also, the whole "designer baby" thing is a moral/ethical dilemma, an argument used against the concept of human gene modifications.

Also, the age of humans is capped at 200 years, and only then for the super-rich. Most people would be living the average lifespan of humans today.

Also, this serves no purpose and is only going to give ubersnowflakes an excuse. If widespread genemods are a thing, then the station will soon be overrun by people with cat ears and tails and people who are halfbreeds of alien species and people who are able to see in the dark and have glowing irises and have fantasy skin colors and natural pink hair and are nine feet tall and don't need to have years of experience to do every job on the station because their genemods make them smarter etc etc etc etc.

[Erik Tiber]

Constructive criticism opposed to calling something Snowflakey? By god, that might just work.

But I'm going to side with Tiber to some extent, it makes sense given current day developments and the fact people can apparently live a few hundred years lore wise.

Edit: It's cloning that should be expensive. How much do you reckon biomass costs to develop ? And we seem to clone people liberally.

Flash cloning should def be expensive, that shit's basically nondestructive uploading tech as is.

I sorta miss super-snowflakes. Like, I don't think we've actually /had/ player complaints existing solely due to poor RP abilities on these boards.

But as much as I want to see some 8-feet tall characters with sparkly eyes again, I'm a bit more wary of those pernicious and subtle uses of genetic snowflakery, like "she has purple eyes and a very cute face". Do we want to risk lifting that barrier, for the sake of seeing some intelligent and interesting roleplay pertaining to genetic modifications?

Most assuredly, since I am confident that admuns could make clear the boundaries. Hey, we could even have a pagge on common genemods. And demonstrate which mods are not common and why, and all that.

Weird mods could basically be treated like visible tattoos in terms of job prospects, and we could easily make plastic surgery be common enough that people could be reasonably expected to change their weird appearance.

[Guest]

I agree with Tiber, we should explain SS13's zany metabolism and health system using genemods, we could also increase the maximum character age to 100 years to convey that better.

However, I dont think we can involve genemods into the game any further without serious some coding (And balancing of various superhuman abillities).

Our current general dislike toward genetics is because they tend to genetically engineer actual superpowers, letting people come onboard with superpowers similliar to those found in genetics seems like it'd wreck the game quite a bit.

As for genetically engineered test tube babies, those are awful.

Sorry if this sounds rude, im sure someone here can manage to play one in a way i'd find interesting, but for every one of these people there will be 10 who make tube-Sue supersoldiers, who someone is going to have to deal with.

More transhumanism would undoubtedly be a cool thing, but as I see things now, implementing it is going to be a lot of trouble.

[Guest]

For fucks sake. What Erik is saying is, that gene therapy would've been implamented and used for centures and would've effectivelly improved human life through both healthcare and breeding. It's not transhumanism, it's people with hereditary genetic disorders that are snowflaky.

Example, Mars inhabitants: Weak gravity means they would achive greater hight and much weaker bone structure. They could not function easily outside of Mars, thus we should technically have no characters from it on Aurora. This could be ractified if all later generations marsians recived genetic treatment to counter it, else, you would have a huge population of literal giants who can't leave the planet.

If it could, and imo, should, be implamented on Mars, there is no reason why other more richer colonies wouldn't take advantage of this technology, as it would be a much cheaper alternative to providing people with genetic deseases constant medical treatment. This does not mean that people would get their intelligence buffed, maybe a little, because is much more advanced than giving denser bone structure and curing deseases, along with being expansive.

Saying that genetic mods are commonplace does not automatically mean that it will go out of control.

[Erik Tiber]

I agree with Tiber, we should explain SS13's zany metabolism and health system using genemods, we could also increase the maximum character age to 100 years to convey that better.

However, I dont think we can involve genemods into the game any further without serious some coding (And balancing of various superhuman abillities).

Oh, we don't need anything that would really be considered a 'superhuman ability', I have in mind near-baseline stuff primarily.

Our current general dislike toward genetics is because they tend to genetically engineer actual superpowers, letting people come onboard with superpowers similliar to those found in genetics seems like it'd wreck the game quite a bit.

Oh, yeah, definitely agreed. Which is why genetic modification in backstories could be limited strictly to what is biologically plausible.

I could compile a list of common mods and the regulations in place. Specify that people would still be near-baseline. Should be easy enough.

As for genetically engineered test tube babies, those are awful.

Sorry if this sounds rude, im sure someone here can manage to play one in a way i'd find interesting, but for every one of these people there will be 10 who make tube-Sue supersoldiers, who someone is going to have to deal with.

'Designer babies' would, primarily, simply be kids whose genetics are impacted by their parents. They would not be created to fill any particular role, or any particular profession. They would primarily be a

More transhumanism would undoubtedly be a cool thing, but as I see things now, implementing it is going to be a lot of trouble.

 

 

Heads-up, I just read the OP and not the other posts because it's too early in the morning for me to care.

Gene sciences aren't easy.

Sure, we've mapped out the entire human genome. Doesn't exactly mean we can change it at will. It's easier to modify the genetic structures of simpler organisms, like in corn or snails or what have you. It's much, much more difficult to do it with humans. Gene therapy would probably be widespread, to deal with cancer and AIDS in the future. But genemods would not be. The human genetic structure mutates constantly, and has a lot of junk DNA and bits that can end up fucking someone's life up if changed or removed. You could think of changing the human genome in terms of organic coding, though much more difficult, I suppose. You fuck one thing up and suddenly compiling errors all around, person has massive tumors and/or is dead.

Exactly, and that's why it's regulated and you don't get people with cat tails and cat ears and weird purple skin everywhere.

Because that's not FDA approved.

I would imagine that this would be very difficult, thus why you aren't getting too many more radical changes. There's 400 years of research into genetics of course, and they do have access to AI's, and hundreds of millions of times the total computing power as modern 2015 Earth.

Also, simply giving someone an injection/implant would not be sufficient to change their entire genetic structure. You'd literally have to change every cell in their body.

I'm talking about in-vitro stuff, not after they're born. After they're born I have no clue about, but there's no reason to think that even then you'd be able to get super-radical external changes to people too quickly. Stuff like hormones sure, but I doubt you'd be able to change their skeletal structure too much without surgery, many of the other radical changes you describe would also probably require surgery.

Also, the whole "designer baby" thing is a moral/ethical dilemma, an argument used against the concept of human gene modifications.

Of course, thus it should provide interesting conflict for people on the station.

Also, the age of humans is capped at 200 years, and only then for the super-rich. Most people would be living the average lifespan of humans today.

Well we do have fully-cloned bodies that you can simply place the old brain into, and I have no reason to believe that cancer is even all that problematic. They'd probably have treatments for most of that anyway. And you have cloned body parts, no more waiting list for organ transplants, no more deaths from rejection... improved brain function too. And, don't forget, genetic modification to increase lifespan, as that is partially determined by genetics.

Like people today aren't living just as long as people 100 years ago did. The UN thinks that you'd see average lifespan in the low 90's in certain first world countries by 2100.

If you have cloning machines that can 3d print out an entire brain and body, which also functions as basically a non-destructive uploader (by scanning the brain), that implies a rather extensive knowledge of biology.

Also, this serves no purpose and is only going to give ubersnowflakes an excuse. If widespread genemods are a thing, then the station will soon be overrun by people with cat ears and tails and people who are halfbreeds of alien species and people who are able to see in the dark and have glowing irises and have fantasy skin colors and natural pink hair and are nine feet tall and don't need to have years of experience to do every job on the station because their genemods make them smarter etc etc etc etc.

Nope. It gives people options for interesting stories. There's an entire literary genre, biopunk, about the social implications of genetic modification.

You don't need super-snowflake whatevers. Restrict people to realistic genemods, explicitly, and ban all those bizarre mods you just listed.

Also, somewhat increased intelligence doesn't mean that someone can work all the jobs and be better than everyone else. They're not rich so they're still near-baseline, and there'd be others with similar mods who are competing with them to get those top positions.

If anything, robotic augments and genetic modification could serve as a reason to restrict people from making a jack of all trades, because if you're not specialized you'll be outcompeted by someone who is.

[Guest]

Like I said, health mods are reasonable, I think it'd be rational that those exist, and that they'd be both widespread and affordable so close to a Tau Ceti glitterworld.

However, the only other genemods beyond healthmods which I can think of that dont require being coded into the game as actual abilities which affect the gameplay are cosmetic genemods, while I dont see that much of a problem in having them (Bar the designer babies, into the trash with those, please) everyone else seems to have reached the general consensus that they are literally worse than Hitler.

Can you give examples of genemods which neither give someone an ability that needs to be coded into the game, or an odd cosmetic change?

[SierraKomodo]

Can you give examples of genemods which neither give someone an ability that needs to be coded into the game, or an odd cosmetic change?

 

A genitically inherited disease, curbed/cured/completely prevented in the next generation of the family line through genetic modification; It'd be something noted in medical records and wouldn't cause much shift in gameplay mechanics or appearance but would provide some RP value for people that read records. Also, let's say this genetic modification were to have had unforeseen side effects at some point (Perhaps deteriorating psychological stability for X reason, for those antag rounds), or the disease was only delayed, not stopped completely. Just an example based on my thoughts of genemods being used to cure Ziva's heart disease previously.

[Guest]

I'm thinking the gene therapy programs shouldn't, by rule, apply to non-humans other than Skrell. Tajaran and Unathi would literally be 500 years behind on research upon their discovery and they would generally have a more negative outlook on genetic modifications than Humans and Skrell, who would've gotten used to the idea by now. I think 'snowflaky' genetic defects are fine and well within alien species, as they would generally have different biology than we do.

[Jakers457]

After causing a few fires to get insight to what people think of genetic engineering. I've decided that genetic engineering is readily available to people. Going with current day technologies and the current stand point of cloning (which falls under Genetic Engineering) people can, in theory, have genetic mods for hair and eyes. To state genetic engineering is too expensive would also state cloning is incredibly expensive, yet we go by the knowledge cloning is covered by insurance, this is not to say it isn't expensive but this to say someone could come into work with light genetic mods.

With that aside, the only issue would be what the employers would find acceptable for their staff. In the same way current day employers with tattoos and piercings.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Uh... Jakers... actually "deciding" this stuff falls under the purview of the lore team...

I haven't read this in a while. As far as immune systems are concerned, I've been operating under the assumption that all the basic and annoying diseases have gone the way of polio and Spanish flu, leaving only the super deadly, fast evolving shit that hops between species to post a legitimate threat to people. Ergo, people get sick just as before anyway.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

After causing a few fires to get insight to what people think of genetic engineering. I've decided that genetic engineering is readily available to people.

 

If you'd like to apply for the lore team so you have a hand in deciding what is in the lore I encourage you to make an application.

In the cusp of the matter let me quote myself

 

Where the line is drawn is for anything excessive, obtuse, over the top, or something that would give characters an unreasonable x y or z. I don't want to lore justify a character who's skin was genetically modified to undergo photosynthesis so he asks for devs to make his character not require nutrients. This is an extreme example, but it's an analogy for the type of thing we aren't allowing in-universe.

 

Genetics is available and cheap enough depending on a case-by-case basis of what you want done. If someone wants to play someone with a genetic disease they can't get fixed because they're poor mofos, that's fine. Just come up with some disease you can pass as convincing enough to not have a cure yet for whatever reason.

[Jamini]

I'm thinking the gene therapy programs shouldn't, by rule, apply to non-humans other than Skrell. Tajaran and Unathi would literally be 500 years behind on research upon their discovery and they would generally have a more negative outlook on genetic modifications than Humans and Skrell, who would've gotten used to the idea by now. I think 'snowflaky' genetic defects are fine and well within alien species, as they would generally have different biology than we do.

 

If anything they would be much more highly experimental, rarer, and cost exponentially more.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

I've given my stance on this and allowed discussion to go on for quite awhile. My previous stance remains, and I'll be locking and archiving this.