Peppermint96 Staff Complaint

[Herpetophilia2]

BYOND Key: Herpetophilia
Staff BYOND Key: Peppermint96
Game ID: I do not think this is applicable, but correct me if I'm wrong
Reason for complaint: 

After a discussion on the Discord server about looting trash piles in maintenance as Security, Peppermint96 issued me a security job ban. I do not think this is justified, and should at least be lowered to a warning or a note. 

Now, for the context.

Recently, I have started doing "maintenance contraband checks" as one of my security characters, Za'Akaix'Dez Zo'ra. These consist of me going into the maintenance tunnel North-East of security and taking apart the 5 or 6 trash piles located there. This usually yields some interesting loot, anything from knives to hand teleporters as you probably know. Afterwards, I store any found weapons in the Armory and forget about them, and bring anything else I find to the departments that would be interested. I have been doing this for a respectable amount of rounds over the past week. Not at one point during this period of time was I talked to, warned or given any other notion or idea that doing this is bad or against the rules. Personally, I did not feel that breaking apart a few loot piles is power gaming considering how many of them there are on the ship, how long it takes and how rarely they are actually used by antagonists, at least from what I've seen.

Moving on to the Discord conversation mentioned earlier. Yesterday, on the Aurora Discord, I mentioned that trash piles can be very strong considering some of the things you can pull out of them. To make the long story short, I was pretty much told that this is bad and that I shouldn't do this. Admittedly, I did argue and debate the ethics of searching through garbage with multiple other Discord members, but I do not think this really applies to the situation that much. Either way, after this Discord conversation, I completely stopped doing these contraband checks over the next couple of rounds and still haven't done any. 

I am also being accused of encouraging poor practices to other players, namely the contraband searches. For reference, I only taught this to a Security Officer named August, and a Security Cadet named Hossl Suazra. This was only done one time with August, but I did do this over multiple rounds with Suazra. If they are allowed to, I am inviting the player of Suazra to chime in and also tell their side of the story. Personally, I do not think I taught them any "poor practice" other than searching through the loot piles, which they also stopped doing after the aforementioned Discord discussion.

To reiterate, I don't think this ban is justified considering that I've never been told that searching through loot piles is wrong up until the Discord debate mentioned earlier. After said debate, I immediately stopped doing this and I do not think I deserve anything more than a warning or note.

Evidence/logs/etc:

If you want to look at the Discord conversation, you can easily find it by searching for anything 'trash pile' related in the search bar of the server.

Additional remarks:

It's my first Staff Complaint so it might look a bit disjointed. Feel free to ask me questions if you need me to explain something better. 

[Garnascus]

1 hour ago, Herpetophilia2 said:

I have been doing this for a respectable amount of rounds over the past week. Not at one point during this period of time was I talked to, warned or given any other notion or idea that doing this is bad or against the rules. Personally, I did not feel that breaking apart a few loot piles is power gaming considering how many of them there are on the ship, how long it takes and how rarely they are actually used by antagonists, at least from what I've seen.

I see a timestamp for 2022-05-18 13:18:30 from @WickedCybs noting you for the behavior. Where you contacted at all by staff over this? I then see the timestamp for the jobban roughly 8 hours later. 

[Herpetophilia2]

I was not aware of any note, as I was not bwoinked or talked to in any way before the Discord discussion. So no, I was not contacted by any staff at all. 

[WickedCybs]

1 hour ago, Garnascus said:

I see a timestamp for 2022-05-18 13:18:30 from @WickedCybs noting you for the behavior. Where you contacted at all by staff over this? I then see the timestamp for the jobban roughly 8 hours later. 

I directly and unambiguously warned Herpetophilia that his actions would get him at the least a warning and at the worst a job ban in the Aurora general when I was asked if even dismantling a few piles might land him in hot water. I did not directly pull him aside and say a note was being applied, but since I did say he could be banned for this, so a note was put on the record so that other staff would be aware this is not his first time and to escalate appropriately. For that matter he was definitely in adequate contact with me. He asked his questions and mocked the stance I took on the conclusion.

I've posted four of the most pertinent bits of that conversation here. It shifts from me saying it's worthy of a note to outlining that I would not allow a part of security to get another mechanic removed from their own department when individual punishment is possible, as this isn't so widespread at the moment.

Spoiler

That aside, let's also focus on exactly why these actions were a problem.

Quote

I did not feel that breaking apart a few loot piles is power gaming considering how many of them there are on the ship, how long it takes and how rarely they are actually used by antagonists, at least from what I've seen.

The problem is that these have a mechanical use for people. It's an extra fun thing for the crew and a utility for antagonist. It does not really matter if the use is rare. The full extent of your interaction here is entering maintenance, taking everything apart in the name of a "contraband check" and letting it sit in the armory. Even encouraging others to do the same. That's just completely lame. It's also exactly the same sort of behavior that's been called out in the past. You yourself are aware of why security had its maint access limited. Officers would do "maintenance checks" and remove all the "contraband" to let it sit in the armoury for the entire round. The connection here is obvious enough I think. You're doing the same thing essentially. I would rather have the crew or antags be messing around with the sometimes dangerous results instead of security attempting to monopolize it due to the "risk" as that justification can be extended to a lot of other things accessible to the crew.

The ban itself I was not involved in, as after that conversation I moved on to do other things and then went to sleep. So that's the extent of my take on the matter.

Edited May 19, 2022 by WickedCybs

[Herpetophilia2]

53 minutes ago, WickedCybs said:

I directly and unambiguously warned Herpetophilia that his actions would get him at the least a warning and at the worst a job ban in the Aurora general when I was asked if even dismantling a few piles might land him in hot water. I did not directly pull him aside and say a note was being applied, but since I did say he could be banned for this, so a note was put on the record so that other staff would be aware this is not his first time and to escalate appropriately. For that matter he was definitely in adequate contact with me. He asked his questions and mocked the stance I took on the conclusion.

Right, this happened during the Discord discussion. From your screenshots, we can clearly see me asking you an honest question, which you replied to. I proceeded to try and crack a joke hinting at the financial situation of Vaurca characters not having much credits, but I am sorry if you mistook this for me mocking you. That was not my intention.

If you did give me the note after the Discord discussion, then the point still stands that I stopped my conduct and heeded your warning. I do not see why a ban was applied after I clearly stopped doing the offensive action, but I understand you are not not responsible for it. 

53 minutes ago, WickedCybs said:

 

The problem is that these have a mechanical use for people. It's an extra fun thing for the crew and a utility for antagonist. It does not really matter if the use is rare. The full extent of your interaction here is entering maintenance, taking everything apart in the name of a "contraband check" and letting it sit in the armory. Even encouraging others to do the same. That's just completely lame. It's also exactly the same sort of behavior that's been called out in the past. You yourself are aware of why security had its maint access limited. Officers would do "maintenance checks" and remove all the "contraband" to let it sit in the armoury for the entire round. The connection here is obvious enough I think. You're doing the same thing essentially.

My views on the matter have changed after I got some sense talked into me, and I now understand this completely. If I have not made myself clear enough, I am not contesting the reason of the administrative action but the improper escalation and punishment itself. Even though I didn't explicitly know you put a note on me, I stopped doing the offending maintenance searches immediately and was still slapped with a ban.

Edited May 19, 2022 by Herpetophilia2
grammar

[Confused rock]

I play Suazra, and since it was offered I'll comment, though I'll be brief since I'm not really sure to what extent my involvement allows me to comment. For what it is, I think Herp's description of the situation is honest. After the discord conversation I can see why it could be a big dick move to antags, but I do believe at the time he just didn't see the harm in it, probably never expected antags would be digging through that small bit of maint anyways. I got the impression he did it because it fit the big hardworking bug he played, and inviting me as a cadet was so I could feel like I was helping out in the department.

[WickedCybs]

4 hours ago, Herpetophilia2 said:

Right, this happened during the Discord discussion. From your screenshots, we can clearly see me asking you an honest question, which you replied to. I proceeded to try and crack a joke hinting at the financial situation of Vaurca characters not having much credits, but I am sorry if you mistook this for me mocking you. That was not my intention.

I specifically mentioned it was the conclusion. Your joke was nowhere near that. From my screenshots, the last one, we can clearly see you pointedly complaining that anything in maintenance is seemingly "just" for antags after I told you what the issue with the trash piles in maint were. That didn't sell to me that you were taking things seriously. To be honest focusing on the credits bit makes that a little worse to me, that you maybe don't think the last screenshot had any problems? It definitely makes me doubt your intentions. While that isn't exactly relevant to the complaint anymore, I'm telling you this so this doesn't become an issue in case there's a next time.

I'll post it again, for clarity though.

Spoiler

4 hours ago, Herpetophilia2 said:

snipped the paragraph afterward

You didn't say you realized the issue with what you did in the main body of the post, which is why I restated it again on this thread. I do already understand this is about the ban specifically and the escalation regarding that. 

Edited May 19, 2022 by WickedCybs

[Peppermint]

Cybs has mostly echo'd my thoughts tbh. You were told there'd be consequences for it, I just went ahead and delivered said consequences as the first person to get to it. From my POV:

- You admitted to it in the general discord, including so far as to say you'd stop 'if it was removed or the loot table fixed' which is pretty darn bad to my eyes lol. I don't buy it was a joke.
- There was discussion in mod chat about your sec play and how this was a pretty big deal so a ban should likely happen.
- I said in mod chat that I'd apply the ban when I got home if nobody else had. Greeted by crickets at the time.
 - Got home, ban given.

From what I saw there and here, you'd already been spoken to by Cybs that something would take place due to it and nowhere was that stated to be just a note. I also do not agree you were unaware this was an issue. Even if you have stopped doing it, that doesn't erase past actions and none of the discord discussion hinted that you understood the problem. I'd have been more willing to reach out and get your side if you'd not come across how you did in those logs. Tone doesn't translate over text very well even if you were just trying for laughs.

 

EDIT: I didn't say anywhere on the ban that you were the one encouraging people as far as I know, (Oh wait, yeah I did)  just stated that it had happened and why I agree with the others that there needed to be heavier handed punishment. However, the fact you've admitted to teaching it to other people absolutely stays in line with why I feel this play is awful enough to warrant a job ban. 

 

After looking through the mod chat logs that were discussed this morning (this is mostly to garn so I'll not be linking anything) I see where the confusion has come from and why I should have directly messaged 'em to let them know what was going to happen, but I absolutely stand by the ban being justified.

[Garnascus]

You do have a temporary ban as well as a temporary job ban from security on record and a warning about powergaming as security before that. Searching maint for contraband is something we have always punished security from doing. I find it very hard to believe you did not know searching trash piles in maint for contraband would also be against the rules given your history. You will need to submit a ban appeal to resolve this ban placed by peppermint as i do agree with it. There is generally no hard time limit set for when you can appeal permanent bans. 

I do think the note from @WickedCybsshould be expunged though. The reason being it states "ban if they continually do this" when that does not seem to be what cybs meant when he placed it. He meant to discuss it in the mod channel and then go from there. As it looks to someone reading your notes for the first time it might seem you where spoken too about looting trash piles and then did it a SECOND time which triggered the ban when in reality its the first instance that triggered the ban.

[Herpetophilia2]

13 minutes ago, Garnascus said:

You do have a temporary ban as well as a temporary job ban from security on record and a warning about powergaming as security before that. Searching maint for contraband is something we have always punished security from doing. I find it very hard to believe you did not know searching trash piles in maint for contraband would also be against the rules given your history. You will need to submit a ban appeal to resolve this ban placed by peppermint as i do agree with it. There is generally no hard time limit set for when you can appeal permanent bans. 

If I am correct, those warnings and bans are all from more than a year ago and have already expired, and were for other issues rather than searching through maintenance or trash piles specifically. Either way, I still understand how they might put me in a negative light in this situation. As for my intent -- I have known about the existence of trash piles, as well as the loot that they may yield for quite some time now. If my real intention was to power game and deprive antagonists or other crew from the trash pile loot then I would have been doing this for way longer, over the other multiple Security characters that I have. Up until I have created this character, I have barely ever touched the trash piles, outside of a seldom few reasons as non-security characters. When I created my new Vaurca character, Dez, I figured that it would make sense for it to regularly scrounge through the ship's trash to find extra credits to buy k'ois with, or send back to its Hive considering that Vaurcae are usually discriminated against and their average pay is way smaller than that of other crew. The name, "maintenance contraband check" was more of an IC cover-up used to discourage people asking what exactly Dez was searching for, which was indeed mainly credits. Anything else useful it found, it would bring to the other departments in need of it, to increase productivity and just generally be helpful. Having a cadet come along and also do it with me seemed like a great opportunity for humor as well as roleplay. At the time, I OOCly justified this using the reasons I have already described:

-It takes a pretty long time to do this, and going through multiple piles of trash can take a lot of time and yield essentially nothing. In short, a waste of time in most cases.

-There are a lot of piles of trash on the ship, and my searches were only localized to the security maintenance section. If anybody wanted to search through garbage themselves, they would still have the entire rest of the maintenance system to look through.

-I thought that it was a fairly hidden mechanic that couldn't really be abused as much as pre-NBT maintenance tunnels were, especially considering how little access to maintenance Security has nowadays. I tend to observe a good amount of rounds and I've never ever seen any type of antagonist really take any time to dig through the trash piles, assumingly because of the first reason.

Although I understand now that my actions were wrong, I still stand by my claim that I do not think a ban was justified. I will say again that even though I didn't know of any note, Cyb's warning still got through to me and I stopped my conduct immediately. It doesn't take a lot to realize that if a Moderator warns you to stop doing something or you'll get banned, you should probably stop doing it at once. As you yourself said, this is the first instance in which I've ever done this and I really think that applying a ban instantly is just poor escalation and is completely unneeded. 

[Peppermint]

Don't agree.

- I have no guarantee you didn't only search the security areas simply because that's the only place you have access to lol.
- Taught other people to powergame, including new players (the cadets) who don't know any better.
-This is the kind of thing that causes OOC bad blood as well as IC frustrations, and is a big reason why we often have so many issues and discussions regarding sec play.
- Your attitude in discord about it was really bad, and I don't have faith that a warning would have been enough - as we've seen here a bit with trying to state a minimized effect.

Not changed my mind in a job ban, which you can appeal, being all too much.

[Garnascus]

Warnings do not "expire" from the staff side of things. Either there is a pattern of behavior or there isnt. I have deleted the note given to you by cybs because it did not accurately reflect his intent and someone reading your notes would assume you looted trash piles twice when that is not what happened. Regardless the ban is fair. You will need to appeal it.