Removes devastation from fuel tank explosions #16077 feedback thread

[Scheveningen]

https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/16077

To provide a few rebuttals to what was already commented:

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I think this really hinders antags options when it comes to destruction. Blowing up a big rolling fuel tank should do considerable damage, as well give engineering something to repair. As well this will create a new player trap by having an unintuitive outcome to a common telegraphed antag strategy.

The objective of an antagonist is not to destroy the ship. The objective of an antagonist is to -- oh, the server rules have me covered here, hang on.

Anyway, fuel tanks will not only still be able to explode, but they will create a very intense burning fire that will continue to burn until all the oxygen is gone from the atmosphere, rather than the room being forced to siphon due to being exposed to space and nothing atmospherically interesting actually happening. The entire room will stay a hot zone and actually increase in pressure, so for anyone who is especially unwise in staying in the room, they will be set on fire and rocked by the increased pressure in the room. This provides a more interesting way for an antagonist to create area denial to a specific zone without threatening to put people into instant death such as what exposure to a 0 pressure vacuum will do. This also requires more intensive effort from engineering to fix, as they have to put out the fire, cool down the room, or if they're simply impatient, can just vent the room anyway so they can quickly refill it rather than bothering to preserve the air in the room. So arguably, I just made fuel tank explosions create a more interesting and complex issue for engineers to repair rather than just slapping metal rods and a floor tile on a turf and rolling a PAP in.

Also, it is a strange argument to invoke new players into this, because I don't think they care about stuff like this. They tend to be too busy acclimating to the Aurora environment because this is not like any other SS13 server. Fuel tank balance is, quite frankly, the least of their concerns. And given the highly destructive power that is blowing a hole into the floor, this change will likely save newer antagonists from receiving antag bans due to accusations of gank or suicidal escalation. This also means security officers have legitimately no reason to blow it up either.

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There is already very few options for bombing methods with Antagonists. Barring Chemistry based grenades, there’s almost nothing that can be used for an easy-but useful bomb.

This PR isn’t super necessary, and will just neuter on station antagonists even further.

Is there a quota we need to fulfill for antagonists having access to sufficient enough hull-breaching tools that will almost certainly instakill people if they are exposed to the vacuum and can't escape? I have been told already by Roostercat that forcing open firelocks closing off a 0 pressure breach to use for combat advantage is frowned upon and considered to be borderline powergaming even if there is a sufficient escalated roleplay reason for it. Using a fuel tank on a particular spot and then weaponizing the fact there is a breach to spread it and further get additional combat frags is therefore tantamount to breaking the rules. I am sure they are not the only one who holds this opinion on staff. No one finds being subjected to this level of grief fun except for the griefer doing it to others.

On-station antagonists, for that matter, are already only neutered specifically because the maintainers wish it that way, and that exactly no one wishes to bother tuning them. If this weren't the case, they'd be much more powerful than they are currently. Fuel tanks no longer blowing a small hole in the floor will not, however, fundamentally change antagonist balance. What will fundamentally change antagonist balance is actually editing their respective files and adding/adjusting features.

[Fluffy]

49 minutes ago, Scheveningen said:

This provides a more interesting way for an antagonist to create area denial to a specific zone without threatening to put people into instant death such as what exposure to a 0 pressure vacuum will do.

Zero pressure does not cause instant death, I've survived zero pressure various times, once almost even came back in from an airlock after being vented into space in this exact scenario, sadly the shields were on and medical didn't seem to have noticed we were dying in space, or I'd have lived it out.

I tend to agree to the rest of what you said, regarding new players in particular is spot on.

 

58 minutes ago, Scheveningen said:

Is there a quota we need to fulfill for antagonists having access to sufficient enough hull-breaching tools that will almost certainly instakill people if they are exposed to the vacuum and can't escape?

No, is there a ceil of hull-breaching tools for antagonists that we need to keep their access under? Neither, we should give them what they need to create interesting events and diversified scenarios, and they should be challenging to face and fight against if they want to be for the story they want to narrate, they should also have the tools to involve different departments and people, sending people in space can potentially involve engineering, medical, service (priest), security, bridge crew (to turn around and try to locate them, man overboard scenario), and doesn't even need to be as deadly (add to the armory some sort of epoxy grenade that encase the person in a 1-tile vacuum-resistant instant epoxy until they are found, brought back in, and released from the epoxy, just the first idea that came to my mind).

 

1 hour ago, Scheveningen said:

I have been told already by Roostercat that forcing open firelocks closing off a 0 pressure breach to use for combat advantage is frowned upon and considered to be borderline powergaming even if there is a sufficient escalated roleplay reason for it. Using a fuel tank on a particular spot and then weaponizing the fact there is a breach to spread it and further get additional combat frags is therefore tantamount to breaking the rules.

This seems contrary to what our glossary states:

Powergaming = Also know as 'playing to win'. If you're trying to complete your objectives, kill the antagonists, or 'win', at all costs and ignore RP

My interpretation is that it depends on what happened before and why it's being done, venting all the ship just for, without having announced your presence, and ignoring anyone that comes to you? Very likely; after an hour of RP, 3 shootouts, with the antag story being to purge the ship or equivalent? Doesn't really feel like powergaming, at least to me.

 

1 hour ago, Scheveningen said:

Fuel tanks no longer blowing a small hole in the floor will not, however, fundamentally change antagonist balance. What will fundamentally change antagonist balance is actually editing their respective files and adding/adjusting features.

No single change is likely to significatively change their balance, give them a machinegun? Some hits is all it takes to put them in broken lungs, after which you can go behind a barrier and wait for them to collapse on the floor, give them the strongest armor we have? More annoying to kill, order more ammos or rainsack the crew armory, but not really a fundamental balance change to have Odin running around with a peasy 9mm handgun, and so on... It's through the continuous nerfs and removes that the line goes fundamentally down or up, a single change is unlikely to sway the balance by any significant margin, but that's no reason to do it anyways, and is generally unwise to sway balances significantly overnight as you could have unintended consequences, a slow steady adjustment is generally the suggested approach.

 

 

Maybe make it so that the tank has to be opened/closed to change between "open a hole" and "high temp high pressure area fire" on explosion would be more acceptable for everyone?

[WickedCybs]

Partially copy pasting what I commented on the PR here.

There's a total of around ten welding tanks on the entire map. A good chunk are inside of locked rooms or in maint. Most of these can't drop anyone into space or cause venting at all unless they're on the further end of the starboard/port wings or are one of two that are present on the hangar deck. In terms of gameplay and being interesting, I'm not really sure if many engineering players would call dealing with fire more interesting, as the standard response to one happening is already just venting the room because a fire is either ignorable or reaches pressures so high you can't realistically siphon or cool it down without it taking the duration of an entire round or more. There's nothing really complex or thought provoking about that. Removing the chance entirely just seems to be less options from my perspective, since a fire that isn't going to get snuffed out by space is what typically happens, it just doesn't tend to go out of control due to happening in more open areas. Removing the ability to make a hole at all is ultimately means less to do for repairs and less falling into the hangar, which is funny.

I'm also not really approaching this from the angle of "antags need the boost" and just find it cool to take advantage of the increased verticality of the Horizon map when someone chooses to actually use the few fuel tanks available at the moment. We have that in some of the more open spaces, but I'm a big fan of people making holes, intended or not into spaces they want to get into. I've seen that used to good effect sometimes and it more than outweighs the chance to vent a room, which is something both antags and sec can frequently counter anyway.

There is no need to change how anything works is my final thought here.

Edited March 28, 2023 by WickedCybs

[EJJ]

As someone who plays Engineering a lot, I prefer welding tanks blowing a hole in the ground, the few that commonly get blown up (the one in the Intrepid) basically solves itself if there's no one in there to suffocate and most people that would get caught in it (sec players) have a crowbar on them 99% of the time. And if an antag abuses welder tanks they're usually bwoinked by admins.

If anything, I'd honestly just suggest moving the welding tank that's in the Intrepid somewhere in the back near the thrusters where it isn't going to be shot at. Because more often than not it isn't an antag hitting it, it's a sec player who's firing their disruptor wildly that hits it and ends up killing themselves.

Also why can disruptors set off welding tanks???????

[Agatasa]

Fires seem much more interesting than yet another breach. I think this would add a bit more variety to destruction that players are actually allowed to do.