Staff Complaint - peppermint96

[Comrade_Watermelon]

 

 

BYOND Key: Comrade_Watermelon
Staff BYOND Key: peppermint96
Game ID: cnS-aR9k
Reason for complaint: Unnecessary warning given after round end.

Evidence/logs/etc:

Additional remarks:

On 5/18/23 I was playing as a vampire antagonist with the goal to "Harass Clark Coldsmith as much as possible". I focused on going after him as much as I could, and thralled only one person. Eventually I was arrested, escaped, arrested again, escaped, and then detained again before I escaped into the ship to use monkeys as blood banks. Then I was shot to death while on the ground and denied medical treatment, which is another issue entirely I should make a complaint or topic about.

 

Regardless, long after the round ended I log in again and find a warning that what I did strayed close to ERP. I received no warnings or complaints about my gimmick during or after the round. Everyone I asked thought it was hilarious. I received a lot of praise from some people for the gimmick, and was very surprised to see I had been warned long after the round had ended. The "sexual territory" I came close to in the first place I had never named myself, and instead other players just assumed that was what it was IC. Players assume that biting = kissing when you're doing it as a vampire and I have been brigged for assault in that way as a vampire multiple times because it is what people in the RP assume what was happening in every case I have encountered. For the entire RP I avoided any explicit implications and called biting "pecking" (this is after people made the assumption I mentioned) and I do not think the reference to someone "liking it" (being thralled) could be seen as a rule violation in any way. I was aware of the rules when I did this and made no attempt to violate them. A large part of my gimmick relied on the assumptions other crew members made - if I am responsible for creating a situation that went too far, all of them must be as well for furthering and even aiding my gimmick at times.

 

I would like to know why this warning was issued after the round, why admins who were online at the time did not bwoink me over the gimmick, and why doing similar gimmicks before has not caused me to receive any warning. To my knowledge, nobody complained about this during or after the round apart from the length of the round which was nearly four hours after people kept voting to extend it. If either the person I was after asked me to stop or admins during the round asked me to stop I would have done so immediately. I did not mean to make anyone uncomfortable and believed that everyone had a good round at the end.

Edited May 19, 2023 by Comrade_Watermelon

[Melariara]

Please use the format listed here.

Thank you.

[Comrade_Watermelon]

18 minutes ago, Melariara said:

Please use the format listed here.

Thank you.

I have amended the post.

[Peppermint]

You weren't spoken to in round as the other staff members on didn't see it. You posted a strange screenshot in general and it made some of us blink a bit - as Mel stated in the channel - at which point I decided to look a bit deeper and pulled up the logs.

I spoke to the other admins online at the time and they stated they just didn't see it, but wish they had so they could have dealt with it.

The screenshot in question weirded me out a bit given 'woman of the night' is a term for a female prostitute: 

For the actual content in question I'll just post a bunch of logs. Bear in mind the timestamp; not all of it was stated together otherwise it would all look far far worse:

The whole 'Clark liiikes it, or will like it after I do it enough, lots of people are into it, don't pretend you didn't like it' lines are all pretty darn sus to me. It's way too close to euphemisms and adult content. You spent the round yelling about this Clark guy and going on about how much he liked 'it' - being bitten, how he consented, how you just wanted him, ect. Then to top that off also referred to it as 'pecking' (kissing). That's not okay lol.

Nah bruh.

I don't know how I'm not supposed to see this under the lens of romantic obsession.

I feel like I can leave this here?

Likewise, as per the warning itself : I stated in it that I was unsure whether or not blurring the line here was intentional, hence it was only a warning given vampire has a lot of roots in VTM which is obviously very much a PG+ thing so it can sometimes be a little harder to tell. That said, I feel your actions and ways of referring to everything going on here really weren't okay.

As a closing note, I have never seen biting being referred to as kissing before and it's wholly not acceptable anyway.

Edited May 19, 2023 by Peppermint

[Comrade_Watermelon]

39 minutes ago, Peppermint said:

You weren't spoken to in round as the other staff members on didn't see it. You posted a strange screenshot in general and it made some of us blink a bit - as Mel stated in the channel - at which point I decided to look a bit deeper and pulled up the logs.

I spoke to the other admins online at the time and they stated they just didn't see it, but wish they had so they could have dealt with it.

The screenshot in question weirded me out a bit given 'woman of the night' is a term for a female prostitute: 

For the actual content in question I'll just post a bunch of logs. Bear in mind the timestamp; not all of it was stated together otherwise it would all look far far worse:

The whole 'Clark liiikes it, or will like it after I do it enough, lots of people are into it, don't pretend you didn't like it' lines are all pretty darn sus to me. It's way too close to euphemisms and adult content. You spent the round yelling about this Clark guy and going on about how much he liked 'it' - being bitten, how he consented, how you just wanted him, ect. Then to top that off also referred to it as 'pecking' (kissing). That's not okay lol.

Nah bruh.

I don't know how I'm not supposed to see this under the lens of romantic obsession.

I feel like I can leave this here?

Likewise, as per the warning itself : I stated in it that I was unsure whether or not blurring the line here was intentional, hence it was only a warning given vampire has a lot of roots in VTM which is obviously very much a PG+ thing so it can sometimes be a little harder to tell. That said, I feel your actions and ways of referring to everything going on here really weren't okay.

As a closing note, I have never seen biting being referred to as kissing before and it's wholly not acceptable anyway.

I did not call myself that. Someone else did, and they were not warned. People have called biting kissing in every vampire round I have been the antag in without exception. I thought I kept it very tame, If the guy who used the word "whore" is not being warned why am I? Also, I didn't post that screenshot - someone i played with who enjoyed the round did! If nobody reported it and nobody was made uncomfortable by this, and in fact thought the round was made fun by it, why is this an issue?

What are people meant to assume biting is? Is everyone who assumes it is kissing guilty of near-ERP and going to be warned? What about the player who called me a whore - they have told me they received no warning or message at all. Do I have full responsibility for the actions and assumptions of over players?

[Peppermint]

A few things keep coming up.

- The fact nobody directly said anything to you, or in a ticket for the round, does not mean something is okay. It just means it was missed. That's all. It doesn't change the fact that to my eyes, this is rulebreaking and goes too far. 

- They're meant to assume it's biting. It says so on the character sprite if you shift click them.

- What assumption is it here? You directly called biting people pecking, and here admit you were alluding to kissing. That's unacceptable. 

- If people make a thing of biting being sexual assault, kissing, ect, then yes they will also be spoken to. It creates an icky enviroment that has no place on this server.

- Thank you for reminding me I didn't deal with the other person. I'll go ahead and sort that out come morning, as it's late for me right now.

[Comrade_Watermelon]

14 minutes ago, Peppermint said:

A few things keep coming up.

- The fact nobody directly said anything to you, or in a ticket for the round, does not mean something is okay. It just means it was missed. That's all. It doesn't change the fact that to my eyes, this is rulebreaking and goes too far. 

- They're meant to assume it's biting. It says so on the character sprite if you shift click them.

- What assumption is it here? You directly called biting people pecking, and here admit you were alluding to kissing. That's unacceptable. 

- If people make a thing of biting being sexual assault, kissing, ect, then yes they will also be spoken to. It creates an icky enviroment that has no place on this server.

- Thank you for reminding me I didn't deal with the other person. I'll go ahead and sort that out come morning, as it's late for me right now.

1. I do not know if the admins online were observing or playing. Was it really missed by multiple admins and did this alleged rule breaking that weirded you out not appear strange to anyone else? Did not one single person complain they felt the rules were being broken, or they felt that anything I did made them feel uncomfortable.

2. This has never happened once. I have played numerous vampire rounds where they assume its kissing, this is a common thing.

3-4. Do you intent to speak to almost every player in that round then in addition to the other person?

Lastly, the rules state that "ERP, also known as Erotic RolePlay, is not allowed on the server. While displays of romantic affection and romantic scenes are acceptable, scenes of a clearly sexual intent will be broken up. (Again, use common sense for this. Sexual tension up to a point is acceptable - sexual acts in themselves are not.)"  and it seems to me that this provides an out for exactly what I was doing. At no point did i display sexual intent. At no point did I ever engage in ERP in any way as it is defined here. It seems that romantic obsession is specifically allowed.

If any demonstration of attraction or allusion to it is forbidden then I would ask that the rules be amended so I or other people don't make these mistakes in the future.

Edited May 19, 2023 by Comrade_Watermelon

[Melariara]

Hello there. @Roostercat and myself will take this.

[Roostercat]

Hi. We have gone through the logs, and this is frankly a pretty cut and dry deal. Look at this. 

 

This is honestly beyond the borderline for creepy. You cannot say you are going to peck on someone a real lot and then mention the 'Special Techniques' and expect people to think literally anything else other than its you making it sexual. This is extremely obvious and, if you still cannot see how it is taken as such, then I am not sure how else to explain it to you. 

 

Additionally, to cover your other points, 

1. This is not a common thing. It is always a rulebreak and if people are reported or noticed doing stuff like this, it is handled. 

2. We do not need to go to every single person you interacted with to confirm that this is not okay. 

 

Overall, I nor @Melariara see anything wrong with how this situation was handled. If you have nothing else significant to bring up, this will be locked and archived in 24 hours.

[Comrade_Watermelon]

36 minutes ago, Roostercat said:

Hi. We have gone through the logs, and this is frankly a pretty cut and dry deal. Look at this. 

 

This is honestly beyond the borderline for creepy. You cannot say you are going to peck on someone a real lot and then mention the 'Special Techniques' and expect people to think literally anything else other than its you making it sexual. This is extremely obvious and, if you still cannot see how it is taken as such, then I am not sure how else to explain it to you. 

 

Additionally, to cover your other points, 

1. This is not a common thing. It is always a rulebreak and if people are reported or noticed doing stuff like this, it is handled. 

2. We do not need to go to every single person you interacted with to confirm that this is not okay. 

 

Overall, I nor @Melariara see anything wrong with how this situation was handled. If you have nothing else significant to bring up, this will be locked and archived in 24 hours.

Why do the rules not allow this type of situation? Nothing I said implied any type of sexual activity, even when I said "special techniques" it implied thralling. OOCly this was known, and nobody objected at the time. It was supposed to be creepy because I was playing a vampire obsessed with a specific person. Are creepy gimmicks banned? There was clearly no intent to ERP in any way, I was playing a character.

People calling bites kissing has occurred on every vampire round that I have ever played. If this constitutes something sexual I would like to request that the rules be amended to something more clear, as I think a balanced interpretation of the ERP rule specifically allows this type of behavior. If my interpretation is wrong please explain why so i know how to better understand the rules.

If you are absolutely sure that this warning was in the spirit of the rules then I would like to know what type of vampire gimmick is acceptable. If players instantly know what's going on when I bite them my options become extremely limited, and the gimmicks I can do become restricted. Every vampire round without exception has had this assumption made by players of all stripes. Every player in this round who directly engaged with me was okay with this assumption and I have never even once ran into any type of objection against it from anyone except in this case.

 

[Peppermint]

Loads of what you said implied sexual activity. You yourself have gone on to admit the kissing thing, and did not refute my claims of it looking like romantic obsession. How is that not sexual? You're playing a vampire, which knocks people out and steals their blood against their will, with a bunch of mind powers to coerce them, and then go onto tell people how you just kissed them whilst they're in that state.- which is practically sexual assault. In the screenshots Rooster linked above (using notepad like a savage for some reason) you're screaming to people nearby how you're going to run away and kiss this Clark dude, presumably against his will. How is that not extremely weird?

I don't know how, in any world, that is not seen as icky and uncomfortable the second you start looking at this under that lens. That is why it is not wanted here.

I am unsure how to make it any clearer that the people you interacting over it being okay with it means absolutely nothing in this case. I don't care if other players around you were fine with it, as plenty of others will not have been in the future. We do not let people break rules through the court of public opinion so players can pick and choose which they want on any one day, and nor do allow gimmicks like this. By playing here you're agreeing to that. There are plenty of other servers on the hub who cater to more PG antics. This isn't one of them. 

I don't think the rule needs to be amended, as this does not feel like a particularly complicated issue. Don't go around insinuating you kissed people whilst screaming about how they consented to it, how badly you want a particular character, and how everyone likes it oh so much. How is that hard to grasp? I really didn't expect so much doubling down, or I'd have placed a ban over a warning tbh. If anything this was quite lenient and I somewhat regret it.

As a closing note, I do not hold other players in the round accountable. You decided to go around telling people how your character had just kissed them. You kept to the play of it being a consent thing, and how everyone was liking it. And you brought these themes into the round. The fact other people then ran with them is not their fault, given they weren't responsible for it in the first place. 

 

[Comrade_Watermelon]

2 hours ago, Peppermint said:

Loads of what you said implied sexual activity. You yourself have gone on to admit the kissing thing, and did not refute my claims of it looking like romantic obsession. How is that not sexual? You're playing a vampire, which knocks people out and steals their blood against their will, with a bunch of mind powers to coerce them, and then go onto tell people how you just kissed them whilst they're in that state.- which is practically sexual assault. In the screenshots Rooster linked above (using notepad like a savage for some reason) you're screaming to people nearby how you're going to run away and kiss this Clark dude, presumably against his will. How is that not extremely weird?

I don't know how, in any world, that is not seen as icky and uncomfortable the second you start looking at this under that lens. That is why it is not wanted here.

I am unsure how to make it any clearer that the people you interacting over it being okay with it means absolutely nothing in this case. I don't care if other players around you were fine with it, as plenty of others will not have been in the future. We do not let people break rules through the court of public opinion so players can pick and choose which they want on any one day, and nor do allow gimmicks like this. By playing here you're agreeing to that. There are plenty of other servers on the hub who cater to more PG antics. This isn't one of them. 

I don't think the rule needs to be amended, as this does not feel like a particularly complicated issue. Don't go around insinuating you kissed people whilst screaming about how they consented to it, how badly you want a particular character, and how everyone likes it oh so much. How is that hard to grasp? I really didn't expect so much doubling down, or I'd have placed a ban over a warning tbh. If anything this was quite lenient and I somewhat regret it.

As a closing note, I do not hold other players in the round accountable. You decided to go around telling people how your character had just kissed them. You kept to the play of it being a consent thing, and how everyone was liking it. And you brought these themes into the round. The fact other people then ran with them is not their fault, given they weren't responsible for it in the first place. 

 

It is supposed to be extremely weird, I am playing as bloodsucking vampire. If anyone had objected or claimed that my gimmick made them uncomfortable I would have stopped at once but not even one single person did this. I do not think the Clark guy was even made uncomfortable by this. The only people who seem to find it uncomfortable were people who were not playing the round! Besides that, I do not understand why I am in violation of the rules because you have not addressed my largest objection.

"ERP, also known as Erotic RolePlay, is not allowed on the server. While displays of romantic affection and romantic scenes are acceptable, scenes of a clearly sexual intent will be broken up. (Again, use common sense for this. Sexual tension up to a point is acceptable - sexual acts in themselves are not.)"

The rules seem to give an exemption specifically to what I was doing. Is kissing sexual? Is hand holding sexual? Kissing is something you can see seven in a children's cartoon - I don't see how by any reasonable measure it is not a display of romantic affection that would be allowed according to the rules. Hell, I wasn't even kissing the guy everyone in the round was just calling it that. What is hard to grasp is that I have still received no explanation on why what I did was a break of the rules. You have said that you personally disliked by gimmick but not why kissing constitutes a break of the ERP rule. The only thing which came even close to a rule break was me alluding to "techniques" and "him liking it" and this was in my view clearly an allusion to thralling which was known IC and OOC because I did it to one of the security people. Even taken at the worst possible interpretation I think it would still be permitted because if alluding to a sexual act was against the rules anyone who said the word "fuck" would be banned for displaying sexual intent. This interpretation would be bad because it would make the offense dependent on context rather than any specific action anyways.

In fact, I had never once during the round had any sexual intent. My gimmick was focused on vampirism, not ERP. Not even one scene can be said to have had any type of sexual intent. Romantic intent, sure, but that is explicitly permitted in the rules. Then you say that "I really didn't expect so much doubling down, or I'd have placed a ban over a warning tbh." which is an astonishing statement to me because you are saying that you would put a ban over a warning based essentially on how much you personally dislike me or what I did. Are rules not supposed to be consistently and strictly applied? Are punishments not supposed to be consistently applied for clear offenses instead of at essentially random based on personal sentiments? My objection here is that the rules are being applied in an extremely loose and inconsistent way where what was okay one day is not okay the next and what seems to make what I did an offense is how disgusted you were rather than the word of the rules.

I will stop posting here and stop disputing the warning if you can show me that without question that I broke the rules. I think the point that not even one person during the round objected to my gimmick and many thought it was excellent proves that the feelings you have about the gimmick may be in the minority and should not be used to condemn it.

The only thing I have asked of you is to prove that what I did was against the rules by pointing to exactly what part of them I violated. I have asked you twice to do this, and you have referenced how uncomfortable and icky my gimmick was to you multiple times without referencing anything specific I did that would not seem to be allowed according to the romantic affection part of the ERP rule. I'm not satisfied by this warning because to me it seems like expression of personal feelings rather than an expression of the rules - unless the rules permit you to warn me based solely on your personal thoughts about the gimmick rather than any actual rules violation.

I only want you to tell me why what I did was not explicitly allowed by the rules.

Edited May 19, 2023 by Comrade_Watermelon

[Peppermint]

Gonna paraphrase a bit here and say that I don't know you, I'm entirely neutral toward you, and this victim stuff of how I'm out to get you is really silly. The punishment here wouldn't be random. It's up to the admin handling it as to what they choose. Usually that's note - warning - ban, but it doesn't have to be.

I have told you the problem. It's the environment and suggestions this kind of content creates for other people. I do not think you were being malicious or any such thing, but I do feel that this is too much. Romantic expression between two consenting characters is fine - and I mean consenting characters, not players, as that creates questionable scenarios if you go with the latter. I am not saying you intentionally played into sexual assault themes, or icky stuff, but that is how I feel these kind of things will be read by a lot of people. You now have two other members of staff - rooster and mel - saying the same thing.

A lot of these arguments are entirely redundant too. I'm not even going to touch them. I have no idea how to begin explaining how 'romantic expression is allowed' is close to allowing this kind of gimmick. I don't really have anything else to add at this point.

 

[Comrade_Watermelon]

1 hour ago, Peppermint said:

Gonna paraphrase a bit here and say that I don't know you, I'm entirely neutral toward you, and this victim stuff of how I'm out to get you is really silly. The punishment here wouldn't be random. It's up to the admin handling it as to what they choose. Usually that's note - warning - ban, but it doesn't have to be.

I have told you the problem. It's the environment and suggestions this kind of content creates for other people. I do not think you were being malicious or any such thing, but I do feel that this is too much. Romantic expression between two consenting characters is fine - and I mean consenting characters, not players, as that creates questionable scenarios if you go with the latter. I am not saying you intentionally played into sexual assault themes, or icky stuff, but that is how I feel these kind of things will be read by a lot of people. You now have two other members of staff - rooster and mel - saying the same thing.

A lot of these arguments are entirely redundant too. I'm not even going to touch them. I have no idea how to begin explaining how 'romantic expression is allowed' is close to allowing this kind of gimmick. I don't really have anything else to add at this point.

 

Yet not even one of these other people objected to what I did or claimed they felt uncomfortable! If the intention of the rule is to protect players I can understand being bwoinked and advised that a gimmick came close to some limit even if I did not break any rule. I cannot understand being warned for doing something that nobody at the time thought was bad and in fact many liked. If romantic attraction between characters requires consent I would ask you to add that to the rules and also explicitly forbid the use of antag mechanics to induce that consent. There is nothing about consent in the rule I am being warned under in regards to romantic attraction. In fact, I'd argue that it implies consent is not required for that because that would be like the other players having to consent to me using antag mechanics on them which they already do by playing the game and roleplaying. I never obligated anyone to return a particular feeling to me other than the bare minimum that is required by the rules for thralls, of which I only ever made one. If I had done this gimmick during an extended round or not as an antag I could understand why there would be a problem with roleplaying an obsession that is not returned in some way considering that the spirit of the rule (even if it is not described in the rule itself) is easily understood by anyone who reads it as a way to protect players and the server's quality. However, I was an antag and did everything i could to follow the spirit and letter of the rules exactly - both those that apply to everyone and those that apply to antags specifically. The "romantic expression is allowed" clause allows me to do romantic expressions, which I have only done so far as an antagonist gimmick. If the issue is consent and I get that consent, can I do this gimmick? I would argue that the Clark player consented to participating in this by not telling me to stop, pinging moderators, and continuing to engage with me. If I need explicit consent to do these types of gimmick is it acceptable to ask in LOOC?

This situation was clearly not read as sexual by the overwhelming majority of players who were participating in the game at the time. I did not perceive it as sexual when I created the gimmick and received no complaints whatsoever. If I get the Clark player to chime in here and state exactly how they felt being the target of my gimmick or say that they consented to participating in it, will it matter? To my knowledge they have not complained and they in several situations deliberately chose not to avoid me and actively roleplay with me, particularly when I was in the brig and the nature of my gimmick had become clear to everyone.

If you and the other mods want to ban the type of behavior I did then I am asking you to remove the warning because I did not violate the written rules at the time and to change the rules to better reflect how they are actually enforced. If the purpose of the rule is to protect players from uncomfortable situations, I also ask you to remove the warning because I made no players uncomfortable at any point. The number of staff who dislike my gimmick is irrelevant because what I am asking for is clear and consistent enforcement of the rules or for the rules to be made clearer and more consistent in the future.

Edited May 19, 2023 by Comrade_Watermelon

[Roostercat]

As stated by Peppermint, you really went too far with this gimmick to the point where it gets dangerously close to sexual assault themes. The logs I posted allude to that, your mentions of "He will like it eventually" allude to that, and you were doing this for basically the entire round. If you do not understand it at this point, then I seriously doubt you ever will.

 

Furthermore, attributing this to Peppermint being out to get you specifically is very silly. Let me be clear, you absolutely did break the rules. The rules do not state every specific situation that constitutes a rulebreak, and a lot of the ERP rule is left to common sense and to what and what is not allowed. Your character was being obsessive and saying very strange things about Clark and it just feels really awkward even reading the logs again. 

 

2 minutes ago, Comrade_Watermelon said:

Yet not even one of these other people objected to what I did or claimed they felt uncomfortable! 

This does not at all mean that it didn't make anyone uncomfortable. There are people who dislike things and do not ahelp them, for some reason. That and we cannot cherrypick rules based on the people being affected by actions, as Peppermint stated. 

 

3 minutes ago, Comrade_Watermelon said:

If romantic attraction between characters requires consent I would ask you to add that to the rules and also explicitly forbid the use of antag mechanics to induce that consent.

Inducing consent is quite literally the opposite of giving consent. This is what I mean when I say the ERP rule involves common sense.

 

4 minutes ago, Comrade_Watermelon said:

This situation was clearly not read as sexual by the overwhelming majority of players who were participating in the game at the time.

You have zero right to say this. You are only yourself, and not everybody else. There is absolutely no way you could have known how everyone else was feeling about it, so stop trying to use this to justify your actions. 

 

5 minutes ago, Comrade_Watermelon said:

 There is nothing about consent in the rule I am being warned under in regards to romantic attraction.

This is the biggest red flag you have given me in this entire complaint and basically cements that you are in beyond the wrong headspace for this. 

 

Still, Peppermint's decision is being upheld. In the interest in not allowing this to go any further, I am going to lock and archive this complaint early. This behavior is not acceptable and, as stated, it is a miracle that it was only a warning. I suggest you be extremely careful with your gimmick choice in the future.