Player Complaint - Sarko - COMPUTER - Mutiny

[Guest]

BYOND Key: oneonethreeeight

Player Byond Key: Sarko

Staff involved: Complaint was ahelped, Josh1133 witnessed it and received the ahelp but was also in-game, was also the only staff online.

Reason for complaint: Blatantly breaking its laws in order to follow the captain's orders during a mutiny round. Its laws were not subverted nor hacked. Bolted down key sections of the station, including primary hallway areas. Impeded the efforts of medbay and security in order to respond to emergencies, was the result of a lot of people dying because they were cut off. Refused to see that the captain was overthrown by the majority of command staff, served as a slave to the captain for whatever reason. Also attempted to siphon escape, bolted down the escape shuttle airlocks, attempting to prevent escape. Unsure if this falls under EoR grief as well.

I'd like answers regarding this, but otherwise I'm pushing for an AI job-ban. A lot of people got taken out of the round for stupid greytide crap that made no sense, because of the AI bolting down everything.

Approximate Date/Time: 23-24APR2015, Approx. 11PM-2AM

[EvilBrage]

If I had my way, AI players would be whitelisted. Anyways.

One interpretation is that the AI was obeying the captain to both protect them from your mutiny (law 2) and follow their commands (law 3) according to their rank (captain) - which supersedes everyone else's needs and orders because they are indeed the highest ranking crew member on the station. The AI does not have a law that states "if the command staff agrees to overthrow the captain, you do not recognize his authority" just like security borgs do not have a law that states "you must follow space law." He could very well have been interpreting the laws given to the best of his ability. Unless the captain explicitly told the AI to siphon air and generally do things that could be harmful to other crew, however, the last few actions don't really fly (unless there was a very, very convincing captain.)

[Sarko]

First of all. Pardon me for my really bad english, i do my best. Lest go to the matter.

 

Blatantly breaking its laws in order to follow the captain's orders during a mutiny round

 

Well, some contradiction here cause are just my laws the ones that force me to follow captain orders.

 

including primary hallway areas. Impeded the efforts of medbay and security in order to respond to emergencies, .....because of the AI bolting down everything

Only two or three persons where bolted and it was in brig area and brig acces and all of them were part of the sec team, again according to capatain orders. I informed him that some security guys were running out of brig with riot here while he was haunting and for his security he ordered me to bolt them there This doesnt happened as you say at all.

 

was the result of a lot of people dying because they were cut off

 

As i asked at the end of the round, tell me the name of just one person that died and it was my fault, you couldnt in that moment at also not now, cause that never happened. I invite the persons who died and was my fault to post here and explain how it happened.

 

Complaint was ahelped, Josh1133 witnessed it and received the ahelp but was also in-game, was also the only staff online.

 

And nothing happened there, and againg faulting to the truth, im pretty sure than in a high attendance hour of the server there were much more than one staffmember online...

 

Refused to see that the captain was overthrown by the majority of command staff, served as a slave to the captain for whatever reaso

 

Not wathever reason, they are my laws, sorry if you dont like it, sometimes i also dont like it but i need to play according to them.

 

Also attempted to siphon escape, bolted down the escape shuttle airlocks, attempting to prevent escape.

 

The same again, it was captain orders and i was a good boy and when the air alarm got to yellow i stopped it just to dont hurt people, you saw someone with his oxygen mask? or someone suffocating? No. And also i mentioned on public radio that the captain gave me that orders minutes before doing it just to prevent the people, but you forget to mention that in your post and some other important things.

In resume, nobody dies. All the people that died was for the firefights cause lot of people got guns and all the sutff. I strictly followed my laws and not much more to say, well perhaps something. Playing AI is extremely difficult and stresfull and more in a round like that. This describes you very well to dont respect me and run here just to complain when you finished playing without thinking first just cuse you think you didnt win or things doesnt happened as you wanted. And to the end one bet, you was playing as Vira? or the HoP? let me know....

Edited April 24, 2015 by Guest

[Doomberg]

Do remember to remain civil and not taunt each other.

With that aside, I'll be waiting for a few more witnesses to speak up, since you two seem to be contradicting each other. Any names would be appreciated, particularly those of the captain/head mutineer.

[Sarko]

Captain was Zoom or something like that. Im completly sure the the mutiner lead was CE Lori. HoS was Vira, also a mutineer. Interim HOS was Carlson Woods( yeah there was and interm fight on security team ) I cant remember much more.

In any case. Sometimes i make errors like all and i dont have problem to admit it and accept a punishment if needed but this not the case. The only point that make me think is the shypon on scape but as i see it. Shypon and area from normal pressure to just 95 is not the same thing that killing people sofocating them, it was just to scary the people and try to make them to not board the shuttle but as i said nobody was injured,.

Wathever, if you think i ruin your gameplay i will say pardon to you it was never my objective.

[NebulaFlare]

Alright. I was in the round as CE Lori/head mutineer. Me being Lori, my IC personality is to be naturally distrustful and spiteful to AI - and synthetics in general. Lori assume every AI is guilty until proven innocent. The moment the syphons went up, I did assume you were hacked, or had laws changed, so I was very surprised to see they weren't.

I only have two issues from what I saw. Syphoning the bridge, and syphoning escape. Usually, Atmos is untouched because of mechanic reasons: it creates lag, it's not easy to reverse. At the brig, it was only myself and Ryker. I was in a hardsuit, but ryker was not. He could have been injured. At escape, preventing people to escape after continuously thrawting my efforts to recall the shuttle (I was lagging, and couldn't cut the proper wires to stop you).

I think a warning would suffice. Just don't mess with syphons, or anything atmos related. It's not easy to tell the difference between knocking them out to survival means, scaring them, or having outright murderous intentions. It has to be done REALLY well (once, an AI was using syphons to scare my character. Would turn them on, then shut them off as I started gasping) but that was with a very small number of targets, and the OOC intention was made clear - to scare, not to kill.

Syphons take a long time to kill someone. But only engineering department would know how to counter it.most people are going to run away from where the area is being syphoned, and make the problem worse. Also, I was half expecting you to crush people in doorways - I'm glad you didn't. making the doors spark would also hurt people, which would go against your laws.

[Jamini]

Syphons take a long time to kill someone. But only engineering department would know how to counter it.most people are going to run away from where the area is being syphoned, and make the problem worse.

 

Syphons on aurora are exceedingly slow. Killing someone with them will take ages, and vents from another area actually would completely stop and reverse the process due to how much faster vents are than syphons (unless distro is affected). I will actually routinely intentionally open doors and firelocks to help speed up re-pressurization in a controlled manner, which does occasionally scare people who ignore the lockdown+tape that was set up.

Atmospherics itself does not create much lag. No, not even syphoning a room. The real lag-causers are FIRES, which need to be updated quite badly (We have an old version of bay's firecode, which none of our coders have touched. Their new version is much, much less laggy and also can break floors, which makes fires less deadly.)

Likewise, cleaning a gas spill or superheated area is actually trivially easy if you don't spread it around. Just vent the area (with a RCD or by taking out a few walls) and then refill it. If you aren't dealing with sun-level heat (3000-4000k) you can even just turn on the gas filters or use replace air to fix a room.

From what I can see, the AI was very careful not to let anyone be injured by the syphons. I do not see what the issue is.

[josh1133]

Captain was Zoom or something like that. Im completly sure the the mutiner lead was CE Lori. HoS was Vira, also a mutineer. Interim HOS was Carlson Woods( yeah there was and interm fight on security team )

 

Interim HOS was Carlson Woods

 

Carlson Woods

 

Carlson

 

Woods

 

I never been so sad. Winston. Carton.

 

The amount of ignorance in this post is ... kind of staggering.

From what I can see, the AI was very careful not to let anyone be injured by the syphons. I do not see what the issue is.

 

Ehh, Lets see.

Being the only staff besides...Zander Moon, who is played by a mod and was rather busy at the time and had to leave to go to work, I can try and give my best account of the information. Vira got demoted, security went on strike because we didn't believe in shit. I got promoted to HOS after the HOP made a deal with security.

I got the message "Begin Order 66 Commander Carton" and the IAA's, the RD, the captain and a few others were killed/ arrested.

The gray tide came in and helped the captain by beating all of sec to death, I shit you not, minus me and like...two others.

The AI locked people out of escape, which with the multiple members of security who were hurt in the end of the clo- The end of the gray wars along with others who had been injuried, I was told quite a few people died because they were locked in escape with no tools, no supplies because...they were locked in escape. The AI started siphoning air and making everyone panic, and despite the captain being stripped of rank and a new captain being named, he ignored the rest of the command staff and listened to the now...Assistant? I may be wrong I don't remember. Point is, AI locked us all in and I guess led to the death of some players.

I can't say for sure, I was dealing with a player who was spamming the word cunt at me in ahelps because I wouldn't break him out of Permabrig, two players killing people, etc etc. So my testimony is not the best.

[Jamini]

I will say nothing on the locked doors, but the AI really shouldn't be warned for the "syphons" in particular.

As for who the AI listens too in mutiny, that's one of those grey areas. Each AI has a different methodology for how it decides how it listens too. If the AI did not feel your deposing of the original captain was valid, then it is within its rights to refuse to recognize your new captain. I know of at least one other AI player who would have done the same. The same player has another AI that will accept two heads of staff overriding the captain, which is more in-line with my own AI.

Mutiny is supposed to be confusing, awkward, and tricky for the players to decide what side to be on. This AI sided with the loyalist captain, through thick and thin. Depending on the reasoning it was given (for example, a bluespace pathogen event) such actions could very well have been justified.

[josh1133]

It was a round where all women were demoted from their head positions.

[NebulaFlare]

Syphons take a long time to kill someone. But only engineering department would know how to counter it.most people are going to run away from where the area is being syphoned, and make the problem worse.

 

The amount of ignorance in this post is ... kind of staggering.

Syphons on aurora are exceedingly slow. Killing someone with them will take ages, and vents from another area actually would completely stop and reverse the process due to how much faster vents are than syphons (unless distro is affected). I will actually routinely intentionally open doors and firelocks to help speed up re-pressurization in a controlled manner, which does occasionally scare people who ignore the lockdown+tape that was set up.

Atmospherics itself does not create much lag. No, not even syphoning a room. The real lag-causers are FIRES, which need to be updated quite badly (We have an old version of bay's firecode, which none of our coders have touched. Their new version is much, much less laggy and also can break floors, which makes fires less deadly.)

Likewise, cleaning a gas spill or superheated area is actually trivially easy if you don't spread it around. Just vent the area (with a RCD or by taking out a few walls) and then refill it. If you aren't dealing with sun-level heat (3000-4000k) you can even just turn on the gas filters or use replace air to fix a room.

From what I can see, the AI was very careful not to let anyone be injured by the syphons. I do not see what the issue is.

 

You know what, I wrote this when I was sleep deprived. Forgive meh...

/cri

[ForgottenTraveller]

I was ghosting around toward the end of this round. And While there could be a statement that Sarko toed the line on what is acceptable, aside from what I heard of happening at escape. [At which point I was manning customs] The majority of staff deaths and endangerments were due to the staff themselves, Ala seeming attempts to kill other members of critically wounded staff. Breaking windows and walls left and right. Blood pools throughout the station, and general anarchy. The captain as his last act was to order an evacuation of the station no matter what. The attempts by personnel to stop it. Probably added 2-4 personnel to the round end body count. Actions included opening to the main hall of breached areas that had windows smashed everywhere dropping pressure across half the station.

All in all COMPUTER pushed the rules on what was acceptable. But it also includes the vast majority of the normal players pushing the same issue. And the majority of harm to the crew from the AI was self inflicted. Blaming the AI for the stupidity of others is a bit much.

[Tainavaa]

I agree with ForgottenTraveler, it seems Sarko wasn't in any particular wrong here. Just questionable, as a lot of people were. It sounds like it was a hectic round.

[Doomberg]

Considering the implications of the gamemode and the circumstances, I don't think this is worth a formal warning or jobban. It's potentially the most difficult gamemode to play AI in, and - at least in my opinion - the AI has to decide which of the heads of staff has legitimacy, so to speak. I'll have a word regarding how station AIs should generally work in this case with my colleagues, but as it stands, I see no reason for outright punishment.

[Omnivac]

Hello all,

During this round a few crew members saw the mutineers planning and since not everyone is always willing to jump on board the antag train (Choo Choo!), they assisted when and where they could. In some places it was feeding info to the captain, in others it was impeding the mutiny via inconvenience. Most of cargo were in fact loyalist so aside from a few baldies there was cause there. However the main issue is the AI. The AI did, what I feel at least, was it's job. It intercepted communiques from the mutineers and I had a good idea of with who, and when they were and was able to plan accordingly. Which is why you guys managed to fail to capture me until you came after me with Xray and E-guns set to lethal which were used on me the moment you saw me with no real rp, but this is about the AI, who again was under orders to do things like call shuttle, prevent recall, block paths, etc..

[Guest]

Consider this complaint resolved.

[Doomberg]

Done and done.