Remove Tajaran/Unathi combat bonuses

[nanotoxin]

@nanotoxinOne of them involves clearly breaking established rules with an intent that goes against the general mentality of roleplay, while the other involves people simply making uses of bonuses given to them that might be too strong. I don't think the two are really comparable.

 

I was meaning, using them to power game/playing to win, because if they're not used to power game/play to win, then why the hell would the be a problem?

It could also be argued that absuing that advantage could break the don't be a dick rule.

[Frances]

I was meaning, using them to power game/playing to win, because if they're not used to power game/play to win, then why the hell would the be a problem?

It could also be argued that absuing that advantage could break the don't be a dick rule.

You can't "not use your claws". Short of losing fights on purpose, there will be no fair fights between Taj/Unathi and others, and in my experience, when people fight, they fight to their best (short of the rare RP-fight).

This leads to situations where an unbalanced and cheap outcome is unavoidable. You get me, right? For example, when a Tajaran and a human get ICly pissed at each other and decide to ham it up with their fists, the Tajaran is almost always guaranteed to win, instead of the players' robusting skills determining the outcome.

Also, I didn't speak much about people "picking races on purpose to be robust" in my above post, but the fact is that's something that remains a lot harder to prove and curb than antagonists simply ganking.

[nanotoxin]

You can't "not use your claws". Short of losing fights on purpose, there will be no fair fights between Taj/Unathi and others, and in my experience, when people fight, they fight to their best (short of the rare RP-fight).

This leads to situations where an unbalanced and cheap outcome is unavoidable. You get me, right? For example, when a Tajaran and a human get ICly pissed at each other and decide to ham it up with their fists, the Tajaran is almost always guaranteed to win, instead of the players' robusting skills determining the outcome.

Also, I didn't speak much about people "picking races on purpose to be robust" in my above post, but the fact is that's something that remains a lot harder to prove and curb than antagonists simply ganking.

 

Other than you, who cares? Life isn't fair. So why should a video game that's trying hard to be like real life fair? Removing it wouldn't make it any more fun.

Everyone has advantages and disadvantages. A human can just as easily pick up a bar stool a bottle of liquor if it's a bar fight. Besides, the Taj is not almost guaranteed a win? I'm not certain, but I don't think cuts will knock you down.

Fights in ss13 are pretty much click till you knock them down, then you win. A human can just as easily knock them down, wether it be disarm intent or straight up knocking them down. And I have faith that if someone was picking a race just to use their robustness, our wonderful staff would easily pick up on it. Either that, or the staff that handle the whitelist applications would pick up on it on that persons application. I still don't understand why everytime you personally don't like something, you want to remove it completely.

[Frances]

Other than you, who cares?

That's kind of shitty (and subjective) to say.

I believe I've done my part to explain my points. You don't really seem to display a good understanding of SS13 combat if in a single post you both say that "fights are click till you knock them down" but that a Tajaran "is not almost guaranteed a win" in this instance. I don't really have much else to say. I don't like being rude, but this has gone on for a few posts of back and forth, and, yeah, I'm just giving up.

Also, if you're saying I'm trying to get "everything I don't like removed", then you've also failed at understanding why I've made the previous suggestion thread about cloning.

[nanotoxin]

Other than you, who cares?

That's kind of shitty (and subjective) to say.

I believe I've done my part to explain my points. You don't really seem to display a good understanding of SS13 combat if in a single post you both say that "fights are click till you knock them down" but that a Tajaran "is not almost guaranteed a win" in this instance. I don't really have much else to say. I don't like being rude, but this has gone on for a few posts of back and forth, and, yeah, I'm just giving up.

Also, if you're saying I'm trying to get "everything I don't like removed", then you've also failed at understanding why I've made the previous suggestion thread about cloning.

 

It may be shitty thing to say, but I'm being honest lol. I've never heard any complaints about it till this thread.

Also, I do quite frequently play Tajara, I do know that it's not a guaranteed win. And if fights aren't click till you win, then I guess I don't understand. I do know that where you hit, and what you hit them with makes a difference, but at it's core, ss13 fighting is click till you win.

I was referencing your IPC brute damage resistance thread as well. Not just the cloning one. But they both seem to me as if "I don't like it get rid of it." sort of threads, this one included.

[Frances]

It may be shitty thing to say, but I'm being honest lol. I've never heard any complaints about it till this thread.

Also, I do quite frequently play Tajara, I do know that it's not a guaranteed win. And if fights aren't click till you win, then I guess I don't understand. I do know that where you hit, and what you hit them with makes a difference, but at it's core, ss13 fighting is click till you win.

I was referencing your IPC brute damage resistance thread as well. Not just the cloning one. But they both seem to me as if "I don't like it get rid of it." sort of threads, this one included.

To no one caring about it, I've seen a few discussions about balance. It's been brought up in the reddit thread I've linked, and I've seen people complain about it before (there were a few Tajarans before who got called out just because they seriously hurt people in fights due to claw damage, and recently there's been a negative reaction to the possibility that people might be OP with IPC mechanics - which are weird - and Unathi cuffbreaks - which doesn't really matter that much. As a whole, though, I'll concede that the claw issue hasn't been brought up before, but the fact that it's gone ignored to this day doesn't necessarily mean it's not a problem. From a pure balance perspective, it's poor design. If you want to create varied species mechanics, alien races should be sidegrades, not upgrades.

For fighting, idk the exact numbers, but I believe claws are roughly twice as effective as fists, if not more (I'm too lazy to dig in the code but you're free to). This is no secret - five to six hits from claws can put you into crit while taking five or six punches would give you about 30 brute iirc.

As for allegations of me trying to get things I don't like removed, I'm against claws because they're poor design. The IPC brute-mitigation also feels to me like a minor imbalance, though several arguments as to the possible counterplay (especially as an antagonist, as most antag types have easy access to EMPs) convinced me that it wasn't as pressing of an issue as "IPCs are destroying all antags". Removal of cloning was a suggestion to bring a /new/ aspect of gameplay (a genuine fear of death - which was semi proven/argued to be something that wouldn't realistically happen), not a suggestion to simply remove cloning because I disliked it.

Though, like, if an aspect of the game sucks, and we're better off without it, what's wrong with wanting to have it removed?

[nanotoxin]

I don't exactly know where to go to dig in the code tbh, but I'm fairly certain like things missing random shots(X attempts to hit Y), where you're aiming, what they're wearing are factors as well.

I don't see the poor design in the different races having differnt buffs. Maybe if they had different debuffs, then maybe I could get behin that. But the complete removal of pretty much the Taj's only advantage, I think, is ludicrous.

 

Though, like, if an aspect of the game sucks, and we're better off without it, what's wrong with wanting to have it removed?

I think that's subjective as well. I think that different species, you know, actually being different, is a good thing. A damage buff, in my opinion, doesn't suck. Especially for a species that hunts. Wouldn't make sense lore wise either.

If you wanted to play a game where everythings fair for everyone, I'm sure there's some games out there for you, but It was designed to be unfair. Life is unfair. This game's not supposed to be fair for everyone. They shouldn't have it removed because people are abusing that mechanics. Whitelists can be removed however.

[the_furry]

are we really considering removing combat bonuses? can we also remove the disability such as gloves/weakness to temp/hardsuits/and all the other disability at the same time? or can we, you know, keep the cool uniqueness of each character so i don't feel like im just playing a fuzzy human.

[Frances]

If you wanted to play a game where everythings fair for everyone, I'm sure there's some games out there for you, but It was designed to be unfair. This game's not supposed to be fair for everyone.

Just gonna address that last point because I think it's very interesting.

There's reasons why SS13 isn't fair. There's a lot of RNG. Effective combat (well, according to Duck) comes from being as prepared as possible to gank your unsuspecting opponent in some weird and unexpected way. There's a ton of unpredictable happenings that result in hilarious chaos.

However, these all have one thing in common: they can happen to anyone. Anyone can get fucked by a random blob or virus. Anyone can get an instant disarm on the first tick of a fight. Anyone can get to play sec, and anyone can get to play syndie. Luck doesn't favor anyone.

Claws are different. They're unfair because they're consistent. There's a lot of random mechanics in SS13 that end up balancing each other out (or creating such a mess balance becomes unnecessary), but claws just exist as a consistent damage buff for two races, that no one else has. It's definitely not the same kind of fair/unfairness.

[Guest]

I don't exactly know where to go to dig in the code tbh, but I'm fairly certain like things missing random shots(X attempts to hit Y), where you're aiming, what they're wearing are factors as well.

SS13 was written by people who thought, hey this is cool, and adds it. Without thinking about what affect it will have in the long run.

They are factors but the game runs on a flip of a coin, literally, a flip of a coin decides if you get hurt or the Armour takes the damage.

No I don't want to make the system more realistic because that would take up a lot of my time. Time I would much prefer playing.

This whole game is poorly designed.

[Guest]

This was probably already repeated several times throughout the thread because I'll be honest, I didn't read half of it. Sorry for the meme.

Anyway. Balance is a topic that has been discussed at length many times. To paraphrase Skull, "It'd be hard as fuck to put effort into balancing things, because balance is fucking awful." And by that, I took it like this: Balance requires a constant amount of effort to maintain, as there is always one person or another seeking power and a way to exert it, and in essence, achieve results in which they are directly benefited by it. As a result, though, you get people who lose.

It is not the nature of SS13 to be 'balanced'. If you want to see a game that is constantly developed against the desire of the community and more to 'change the competitive part of it', see League of Legends. That game has changed so much it's horrible to give it a once-over.

I'm not saying that if the development team actually decides to do some balancing changes to races it will automatically make the game shittier than it used to be, but it's a foreseeable path that will lead up to future developments regarding 'game balance' because the community wanted the development team to police 'balance'.

I disagree with the notion that balancing is required for certain races in terms of their combat capability. It's actually a lot more fun trying to work around the strengths of other players/races and punishing them super hard for showing weakness.

Combat in itself is not about who is the strongest, it is who is the most vulnerable and how a competitor can exploit that vulnerability to achieve an ideal scenario. Arguably, the way SS13 combat is set up is fine the way it is, despite it being 'click2win', there are still many mechanics deeply embedded into the code of the game that can determine who lives or dies, or perhaps weighing luck completely into the equation and fucking everyone involved over.

I dislike combat scenarios that are predictable, to be honest. It is a lot more fun getting thrown into a conflict without a plan and being forced to make decisions in order to survive. And if you don't, well, at least you can take solace in that you tried and had fun in it. Right?

Right.

And regarding consistency. How do you stop consistency, without factoring into bawwing the developers into doing so?

You take it out of the equation by force. You wanna stop Unathi/Tajaran from clawing your face off as a traitor? Buy a e-bow and an e-sword. Shoot them twice, cut their hands off. It's simple, elegant, and it'd be a fun gimmick.

Edited June 25, 2015 by Guest

[nanotoxin]

I don't exactly know where to go to dig in the code tbh, but I'm fairly certain like things missing random shots(X attempts to hit Y), where you're aiming, what they're wearing are factors as well.

SS13 was written by people who thought, hey this is cool, and adds it. Without thinking about what affect it will have in the long run.

They are factors but the game runs on a flip of a coin, literally, a flip of a coin decides if you get hurt or the Armour takes the damage.

No I don't want to make the system more realistic because that would take up a lot of my time. Time I would much prefer playing.

This whole game is poorly designed.

 

I'm not asking you to make it realistic or anything. I'm really not asking for anything to be changed. I like how it's realistic in that the species are actually different species instead of being reskinned humans.

 

Claws are different. They're unfair because they're consistent. There's a lot of random mechanics in SS13 that end up balancing each other out (or creating such a mess balance becomes unnecessary), but claws just exist as a consistent damage buff for two races, that no one else has. It's definitely not the same kind of fair/unfairness.

 

So.What. It should be unfair. They're not humans. We shouldn't make them as such.

[Guest]

Also, a friendly piece of advice as a player since I don't wanna see any of you get yelled at.

Argue points, do not argue about people.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Argue points, do not argue about people.

 

That's exactly what Hitler would say.

 

Unathi and Tajaran powergaming

 

I don't feel like quoting all the specific posts, so I'll just list all the ways you can avoid losing claws in a non-lethal fight:

• Use disarm intent. I pretty much always roll disarm intent as my lizard. I haven't clawed anyone in quite awhile.
• Flash or other stun weapons.
  
• IC'ly realize how dangerous your claws are to humans, and use one of the above.

 

Ways to prevent being OP'd by catlizard claws:

• Literally anything this game's combat is freaking insane who even punches anymore outside pitched battles

[Frances]

I dislike combat scenarios that are predictable, to be honest.

That seems more like an argument against power imbalances than for them.

 

You take it out of the equation by force. You wanna stop Unathi/Tajaran from clawing your face off as a traitor? Buy a e-bow and an e-sword. Shoot them twice, cut their hands off. It's simple, elegant, and it'd be a fun gimmick.

I don't expect people to read every single post of superlong threads, but

anybody getting into a physical altercation with an Unathi or Tajaran (and where neither party is an antag or sec) will absolutely get rekt. And that's just' date=' uh, not good.[/quote']

So I wasn't arguing antags. Sure, melee combat isn't always relevant in the grand scheme of antagging. I was speaking mainly of the issue of small, everyday fights.

Anyway, this whole thread is sorta horrid. I'm trying my best to reply to the arguments I think are the most invalid, but Skull posted a very nice solution a few pages ago, and everyone seems to be ignoring it in favor of trying to argue that having races that are objectively better than the default isn't a problem.

[Jakers457]

I've seen human characters beat the shit out of and even behead Unathi Officers. Perhaps a species being objectively better than another might be distressing to some, but it's better to add than to take. I'm sure Skull has a work around up his sleeve to make things seem a little more 'fair' I suppose. I'm probably rehashing the points already made, but I wouldn't say it's necessary to nerf two species when there are more fruitful alternatives.

Sure, finding yourself toe to toe with a cat/lizard puts you at a disadvantage if you were say, human, but I enjoy that when playing my human characters. You have to choose your fights wisely and make the right calls, it's the same with being an antag. People get salty when they're half-baked plan of holding a room of people hostage with a bomb goes tits up, and it's no different from fighting another species. You want to hold hostages? You need to actually think it through. You want to fight a hulking lizard-bastard? You need to take your opponents abilities into consideration and fight fucking dirty if need be.

TLDR: Rehashed arguments. Nerfing is a lazy solution that takes more from the game. Combat situations should be thought out, not expecting to have a fair fight. Set IPCs/Cats a light, they hate the heat.

[Guest]

Argue points, do not argue about people.

 

That's exactly what Hitler would say.

I'm going to leave this here and ask if it was really needed?

I'm also going to ask that everyone go back and read Skull's posts, and think about things before replying.

I take swear words as someone who is not thinking, even I do it when not thinking.

[Johnny Mnemonic]

Argue points, do not argue about people.

 

That's exactly what Hitler would say.

I'm going to leave this here and ask if it was really needed?

>being this much against the freedom of speech just like hitler was.

Should we remove claws, take two. NO!

my main point is, this is a roleplaying server. play your role. Do you seriously want any random baldie and 85 year old grandma be able to knock down a 7 foot Unathi, immersion be damned? Even in everyday extended fights, you shouldn't be able to be a human and expect to berserk your way to taking down a Unathi simply because. no, you're a dirty human, if you really must, you'll throw dust in their eyes and pull out a flash and claim that war is dishonorable and that the drive to success is what really prevailed, or some shit like that. I don't even WANT to be ABLE to take down an Unathi in a fistfight.

I'm still more inclined to adding disadvantages rather then take away existing features, but! But even if we don't add disadvantages, so what? As Nick said, life isn't fair, we're acting out scenarios with realism in mind. so.fucking.what. if everyone can't be equally robust? life isn't robust

only Diona are

apply for diona today!

[Guest]

Freedom of speech protects you from the government, not people who run private communities you either choose to be part of or not. You're entitled to your opinion but that doesn't mean we have to hear someone's crap.

Anyway, I think we've all gotten our points across.

[Johnny Mnemonic]

i tried writing this like 50 times but keep deleting everything, so just to elaborate on the comment i made and do it in a way where i don't have to copy paste this in multiple PM's, i wasn't inciting anything, it's a joke, i mean, i'm pretty sure JackBoot was /also/ just making a joke because it's the sort of thing he does and really, who uses the word hitler un-ironically like that? There wasn't really a reason why JB, or anyone, shouldn't be allowed to make a quip like that, and my comment was supposed to be more of a support of that statment, however it's 5AM and i'm not clever enough now to think of something new, and also i can't think of a way to phrase delta's comment into something else hitler would say, so instead of doing something to derail this, i'll just apologize and whoever can edit comments can edit my quip out if they see fit

and yea, i laid my case, i think if species get redesign that should probably get it's own thread

[Guest]

i think if species get redesign that should probably get it's own thread

I agree with that. Lets start clean with no intention of removing or equalizing them, just about redesigning them?

How's that sound?