Nightmare 00 Complaint

[Nightmare]

I'm not closing any thread. I was asking if there was anything else you wanted to bring up, to avoid talking in circles. And yes, I didn't mean threat, that was indeed a typo.

[Witt]

Just going to point out here that this complaint is about Nasir not nightmares abilities as an admin; meaning that we should probably move this complaint into the player section.

[Guest]

Hold the fuck up here.

Alright, here is the sequence of events that occurred here. I was there for that round as the Captain, Vira De Santos. I was called to escape in the absence of security. I heard about a fight and attempted to defuse it, I saw Nasir and Mister Baldy Greenshirt Botanist going at it. From the combatlogs I saw, I witnessed greenshirt robusting nasir by throwing banana peel after banana peel. Nasir responded by scratching his stupid goonass up. Afterward, the greenshirt ran into Starboard Primary Hallway and eventually fell due to pain crit. He got back up after awhile, only to be captured by myself and my trusty energy pistol staring down his throat. I told him to sit the fuck down, and Nasir stood in the hallway and spat on the floor, not within 4 square tiles of the greenshirt. Soon, Mister Greg Ryan came out of nowhere and flashed Nasir for a total of four fucking times.

The escalation of force in this manner was absolutely unnecessary and would warrant a mandatory brigging for exceeding offical powers by pretending to be a blue-shirt security officer.

Additionally, the escalation of force used by FLASHING FOUR TIMES IN SUCCESSION is also IC-punishable by Severe Use of Excessive Force.

I have to agree with everyone in this thread that is currently prosecuting you and your character, Jackboot. You fail to be a competent enough head and manage to make issues even worse when you attempt to approach them.

I cannot respect anyone who finds it necessary to flash someone more than one or two times.

[hivefleetchicken]

Hold the fuck up here.

Alright, here is the sequence of events that occurred here. I was there for that round as the Captain, Vira De Santos. I was called to escape in the absence of security. I heard about a fight and attempted to defuse it, I saw Nasir and Mister Baldy Greenshirt Botanist going at it. From the combatlogs I saw, I witnessed greenshirt robusting nasir by throwing banana peel after banana peel. Nasir responded by scratching his stupid goonass up. Afterward, the greenshirt ran into Starboard Primary Hallway and eventually fell due to pain crit. He got back up after awhile, only to be captured by myself and my trusty energy pistol staring down his throat. I told him to sit the fuck down, and Nasir stood in the hallway and spat on the floor, not within 4 square tiles of the greenshirt. Soon, Mister Greg Ryan came out of nowhere and flashed Nasir for a total of four fucking times.

The escalation of force in this manner was absolutely unnecessary and would warrant a mandatory brigging for exceeding offical powers by pretending to be a blue-shirt security officer.

Additionally, the escalation of force used by FLASHING FOUR TIMES IN SUCCESSION is also IC-punishable by Severe Use of Excessive Force.

I have to agree with everyone in this thread that is currently prosecuting you and your character, Jackboot. You fail to be a competent enough head and manage to make issues even worse when you attempt to approach them.

I cannot respect anyone who finds it necessary to flash someone more than one or two times.

 

Quick thingy.

Delta.

Okay, I get what you're saying. Totally.

But the cursing and calling the botanist a ' stupid goon' isn't -really- cool. No offense or anything to you; I'm not your boss, but... He's actually an okay player.

The botanist, from what I saw after the fight, was roleplaying just fine with pain emotes and such, had a flavour text, and was played by a long time member of our community. I can understand that you might be angry on how the CMO responded to this, but the anger should not only be directed to the CMO and not the botanist, but also should be delivered in the form of polite, but firm statements in order to have a civilized argument. (Also, sorry to the administrative staff if it wasn't my place to say this.)

Now, I missed too much of this fight to include any of my main input on the matter. But I can agree to 1138's statement that Grey Ryan/Jackboot ran up to Nasir after the fight had finished and the situation was being handled well by the Captain (OneOneThreeEight) and flashed him once or twice, maybe even three times. This then sparked a bit of LOOC bickering, which turned to caps lock by one or two members of the argument, and then the fight was over pretty much once the transfer shuttle left.

[TishinaStalker]

Just going to point out here that this complaint is about Nasir not nightmares abilities as an admin; meaning that we should probably move this complaint into the player section.

 

Just in case, part of Jackboot's complaint is the fact that Nightmare, as an administrator, told Jackboot something over LOOC that could only be perceived as an insult. I don't believe the use of his abilities as an admin have been called out on, only his behavior as one for that one issue.

[Frances]

The botanist, from what I saw after the fight, was roleplaying just fine with pain emotes and such, had a flavour text, and was played by a long time member of our community.

All of this was fairly irrelevant. The botanist made no attempts to roleplay before being beat up, and simply resorted to throwing banana peels randomly (there are absolutely no speak or emote logs on his character for his entire round before the fight except for two sentences), which constitutes imo an unacceptable breach of character, and makes for terrible, terrible roleplay. I would also note that said player has gotten into several incidents with the staff over their roleplaying in the past.

Just setting things straight.

[hivefleetchicken]

The botanist, from what I saw after the fight, was roleplaying just fine with pain emotes and such, had a flavour text, and was played by a long time member of our community.

All of this was fairly irrelevant. The botanist made no attempts to roleplay before being beat up, and simply resorted to throwing banana peels randomly (there are absolutely no speak or emote logs on his character for his entire round before the fight except for two sentences), which constitutes imo an unacceptable breach of character, and makes for terrible, terrible roleplay. I would also note that said player has gotten into several incidents with the staff over their roleplaying in the past.

Just setting things straight.

 

Ah. Thank you. I wasn't at all aware of this, I just showed up after the fight was over.

Thanks for helping me see that.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Hold the fuck up here.

Alright, here is the sequence of events that occurred here. I was there for that round as the Captain, Vira De Santos. I was called to escape in the absence of security. I heard about a fight and attempted to defuse it, I saw Nasir and Mister Baldy Greenshirt Botanist going at it. From the combatlogs I saw, I witnessed greenshirt robusting nasir by throwing banana peel after banana peel. Nasir responded by scratching his stupid goonass up.

Is that language necessary? Anger leads to the Dark Side. You arrived late, when the fight was already halfway over. All I saw, as an IC character, was Nasir smash the botanists face into a window so hard it shattered. I then called security multiple times and yelled at the two several times before pulling out my flash because the botanists health bar was draining rapidly. It doesn't matter if he was a bad RP'er, he was IC'ly dying and Dr. Ryan was going to break up the fight and fix his face then fix Nasir's bruises. It's in the logs and Ffrances concurs that my rise of force was justified, albiet my questionable use of the four flashes which I will elaborate on more blow.

 

Afterward, the greenshirt ran into Starboard Primary Hallway and eventually fell due to pain crit. He got back up after awhile, only to be captured by myself and my trusty energy pistol staring down his throat. I told him to sit the fuck down, and Nasir stood in the hallway and spat on the floor, not within 4 square tiles of the greenshirt. Soon, Mister Greg Ryan came out of nowhere and flashed Nasir for a total of four fucking times.

 

Are you sure you're remembering it right? The quadruple flash was when Nasir was still in escape itself, and had just thrown a few more punches. The flash that sparked LOOC ire was when Greg walked up to Nasir who was approaching the botanist again, and flashed him once more and called him a brute before returning to the botanist. That was IC anger and outrage at the behaviour from Nasir. I expected IC ire at Greg's outburst - and perhaps surprise, given his nature, but not the extremely condescending remark made by nightmare. I didn't respond in LOOC, and elected to remain in character because I don't respond to baiting, especially in a public setting.

The quad-flash only came about because, as I said before, Nasir showed zero response to the other flashes. When my character is flashed, they tend to stop everything and focus on the giant blinding light that just exploded their eyeballs. Which is kind of the point of flashes. You can keep screaming and be like "OW WHAT THE HELL WHY" but being flashed should be a major kick in the balls to your momentum. Nasir didn't have any of this, he just kept silently getting back up and clawing the botanist. It's like one of those zombie movies where the zombie gets shot in the chest, and each time keeps rising back up and shuffling towards you. If you ignore three flashes through the duration of the fight, you're going to get a more severe response. Nasir was terrifying, IC'ly, and Greg was getting desperate to keep the guy on his ass for as long as possible.

 

The escalation of force in this manner was absolutely unnecessary and would warrant a mandatory brigging for exceeding offical powers by pretending to be a blue-shirt security officer.

If I pretended to be an officer, I would have negated my calls for security and handled the entire situation on my own like an hero. I only intervened when someone was being grievously injured. IC'ly it was consistent with the personality of Dr. Ryan and within justified levels of force. In the perfect situation, Nasir would be flashed and the botanist would have been dragged out to escape earlier to fix his broken face and chest.

If you want to get really technical, the Captain - which you played - can't be sec either. You were completely out of your technical authority lowering your self-defense weapon on an unarmed pain-crit man. Did I spew garbage at you? No, because I understand that extenuating circumstances exist.

 

Additionally, the escalation of force used by FLASHING FOUR TIMES IN SUCCESSION is also IC-punishable by Severe Use of Excessive Force.

Then punish Greg? I never at all argued that it wasn't against IC procedures. Slap Greg into cuffs and let him explain why he did what he did. Whether or not you IC'ly find it justified would be your character's call. Greg is extremely non-violent outside antag roles (which are usually all turned off), and only ever whips out his flash if there is a danger to his staff or his patients/injured crew. This was the most violent I can remember Greg being to another crew. (He's shot a hulk with multiple sedatives/violent people in medbay with a syringe gun, but I don't think he's ever gone to red intent outside accidental misclicks.)

 

I have to agree with everyone in this thread that is currently prosecuting you and your character, Jackboot. You fail to be a competent enough head and manage to make issues even worse when you attempt to approach them.

Who's prosecuting my character? And as to your question of my Head abilities, yeah - I'm not the best with Captain or Chief Engineer, and flipflop between people liking me as HoS and despising me as HoS. I've since learned - especially with the reasons provided by Frances for my whitelist strip - that I'm better off as CMO or HoP if I am to play Heads. Which I'll stick to whenever I feel like reapplying.

stupid goddamn shields those were most trouble than they were worth

However, this isn't the subject of this topic, and going down that road would derail the discussion. My only remark would be that my behaviour does not justify poor behaviour on part of an administrator. Especially lying about his conduct when Tishina has stated specific examples of this sort of behaviour in the past.

 

I cannot respect anyone who finds it necessary to flash someone more than one or two times.

Okay.

[Guest]

Hold the fuck up here.

Alright, here is the sequence of events that occurred here. I was there for that round as the Captain, Vira De Santos. I was called to escape in the absence of security. I heard about a fight and attempted to defuse it, I saw Nasir and Mister Baldy Greenshirt Botanist going at it. From the combatlogs I saw, I witnessed greenshirt robusting nasir by throwing banana peel after banana peel. Nasir responded by scratching his stupid goonass up. Afterward, the greenshirt ran into Starboard Primary Hallway and eventually fell due to pain crit. He got back up after awhile, only to be captured by myself and my trusty energy pistol staring down his throat. I told him to sit the fuck down, and Nasir stood in the hallway and spat on the floor, not within 4 square tiles of the greenshirt. Soon, Mister Greg Ryan came out of nowhere and flashed Nasir for a total of four fucking times.

The escalation of force in this manner was absolutely unnecessary and would warrant a mandatory brigging for exceeding offical powers by pretending to be a blue-shirt security officer.

Additionally, the escalation of force used by FLASHING FOUR TIMES IN SUCCESSION is also IC-punishable by Severe Use of Excessive Force.

I have to agree with everyone in this thread that is currently prosecuting you and your character, Jackboot. You fail to be a competent enough head and manage to make issues even worse when you attempt to approach them.

I cannot respect anyone who finds it necessary to flash someone more than one or two times.

 

Quick thingy.

Delta.

Okay, I get what you're saying. Totally.

But the cursing and calling the botanist a ' stupid goon' isn't -really- cool. No offense or anything to you; I'm not your boss, but... He's actually an okay player.

The botanist, from what I saw after the fight, was roleplaying just fine with pain emotes and such, had a flavour text, and was played by a long time member of our community. I can understand that you might be angry on how the CMO responded to this, but the anger should not only be directed to the CMO and not the botanist, but also should be delivered in the form of polite, but firm statements in order to have a civilized argument. (Also, sorry to the administrative staff if it wasn't my place to say this.)

Now, I missed too much of this fight to include any of my main input on the matter. But I can agree to 1138's statement that Grey Ryan/Jackboot ran up to Nasir after the fight had finished and the situation was being handled well by the Captain (OneOneThreeEight) and flashed him once or twice, maybe even three times. This then sparked a bit of LOOC bickering, which turned to caps lock by one or two members of the argument, and then the fight was over pretty much once the transfer shuttle left.

 

I was more pissed at how both of them handled it, not one or the other. However, the majority fault does lie with the acting CMO at the time.

[Frances]

The quad-flash only came about because, as I said before, Nasir showed zero response to the other flashes. When my character is flashed, they tend to stop everything and focus on the giant blinding light that just exploded their eyeballs. Which is kind of the point of flashes. You can keep screaming and be like "OW WHAT THE HELL WHY" but being flashed should be a major kick in the balls to your momentum. Nasir didn't have any of this, he just kept silently getting back up and clawing the botanist. It's like one of those zombie movies where the zombie gets shot in the chest, and each time keeps rising back up and shuffling towards you. If you ignore three flashes through the duration of the fight, you're going to get a more severe response. Nasir was terrifying, IC'ly, and Greg was getting desperate to keep the guy on his ass for as long as possible.

As proven by the logs posted, Greg did not successfully flash Nasir one before the spam-flashing, thus giving him no incentive to go back to fighting, as the fighting hadn't been interrupted per se.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

The quad-flash only came about because, as I said before, Nasir showed zero response to the other flashes. When my character is flashed, they tend to stop everything and focus on the giant blinding light that just exploded their eyeballs. Which is kind of the point of flashes. You can keep screaming and be like "OW WHAT THE HELL WHY" but being flashed should be a major kick in the balls to your momentum. Nasir didn't have any of this, he just kept silently getting back up and clawing the botanist. It's like one of those zombie movies where the zombie gets shot in the chest, and each time keeps rising back up and shuffling towards you. If you ignore three flashes through the duration of the fight, you're going to get a more severe response. Nasir was terrifying, IC'ly, and Greg was getting desperate to keep the guy on his ass for as long as possible.

As proven by the logs posted, Greg did not successfully flash Nasir one before the spam-flashing, thus giving him no incentive to go back to fighting, as the fighting hadn't been interrupted per se.

 

I distinctly remember him being flashed at least twice during the fighting before the quadruple. Once was by the botanist when he picked up my flash, and the other time was by myself. Human memory is a fickle thing, so I of course must go by what the logs say, as much as I remember otherwise...

That one flash was still enough to suck out momentum, and it's not the isolated incident that is the cusp of my complaint: It's that this is what Nasir always does. He used excessive force without at all including security and pain-crit'd a man, only stopping after being flashed several times. Nasir is violent, explosive, and is a walking time bomb that is nearly unaffected by bullets, tasers, flashes, or anything that might break his 'bad-ass' persona.

[TishinaStalker]

Hold the fuck up here.

Alright, here is the sequence of events that occurred here. I was there for that round as the Captain, Vira De Santos. I was called to escape in the absence of security. I heard about a fight and attempted to defuse it, I saw Nasir and Mister Baldy Greenshirt Botanist going at it. From the combatlogs I saw, I witnessed greenshirt robusting nasir by throwing banana peel after banana peel. Nasir responded by scratching his stupid goonass up. Afterward, the greenshirt ran into Starboard Primary Hallway and eventually fell due to pain crit. He got back up after awhile, only to be captured by myself and my trusty energy pistol staring down his throat. I told him to sit the fuck down, and Nasir stood in the hallway and spat on the floor, not within 4 square tiles of the greenshirt. Soon, Mister Greg Ryan came out of nowhere and flashed Nasir for a total of four fucking times.

The escalation of force in this manner was absolutely unnecessary and would warrant a mandatory brigging for exceeding offical powers by pretending to be a blue-shirt security officer.

Additionally, the escalation of force used by FLASHING FOUR TIMES IN SUCCESSION is also IC-punishable by Severe Use of Excessive Force.

I have to agree with everyone in this thread that is currently prosecuting you and your character, Jackboot. You fail to be a competent enough head and manage to make issues even worse when you attempt to approach them.

I cannot respect anyone who finds it necessary to flash someone more than one or two times.

 

Quick thingy.

Delta.

Okay, I get what you're saying. Totally.

But the cursing and calling the botanist a ' stupid goon' isn't -really- cool. No offense or anything to you; I'm not your boss, but... He's actually an okay player.

The botanist, from what I saw after the fight, was roleplaying just fine with pain emotes and such, had a flavour text, and was played by a long time member of our community. I can understand that you might be angry on how the CMO responded to this, but the anger should not only be directed to the CMO and not the botanist, but also should be delivered in the form of polite, but firm statements in order to have a civilized argument. (Also, sorry to the administrative staff if it wasn't my place to say this.)

Now, I missed too much of this fight to include any of my main input on the matter. But I can agree to 1138's statement that Grey Ryan/Jackboot ran up to Nasir after the fight had finished and the situation was being handled well by the Captain (OneOneThreeEight) and flashed him once or twice, maybe even three times. This then sparked a bit of LOOC bickering, which turned to caps lock by one or two members of the argument, and then the fight was over pretty much once the transfer shuttle left.

 

I was more pissed at how both of them handled it, not one or the other. However, the majority fault does lie with the acting CMO at the time.

 

Not to be rude, but it seems like you didn't bat an eyelash at Jackboot's post. Probably because you're reaffirming your belief that it's the CMO's fault, while quoting Hive, but not seeming to mention anything of what Jackboot had just posted. For example, earlier you posted that you can't respect a person that flashes someone more than two times, didn't quote him, but Jackboot's previous post stated that FFrances said that his use of force was justified. Furthermore, one of the important parts of Jackboot's post, "... Nasir showed zero response to the other flashes. When my character is flashed, they tend to stop everything and focus on the giant blinding light that just exploded their eyeballs. Which is kind of the point of flashes." There is nothing but truth in a statement like that because that is quite literally "the point of flashes." Which in the end failed to get a response from Nasir. In conclusion, he also pointed out the fact that you played pseudo-security as well when you were leveling an energy pistol at a dude that's not only in pain crit, but also in the middle of having his face pieced back together by Greg Ryan in the hall.

[Frances]

On flashing: The botanist flashed Nasir once - and since nobody made any efforts to stop/restrain him, once he shrugged off the flash (basically got up from being stunned), he began fighting again, because the botanist kept punching him repeatedly while he was down, over ten times. The only person Greg got to flash was a very unfortunate engineer bystander. Nasir was not flashed again until the quadruple flash, and was well within his right to continue fighting.

Now, having read all of these replies, here is my take on it, as well as what I propose:

-Nasir's response to the botanist was justifiable ICly (the botanist kept punching him, little was made to stop him, you'd be pissed)

-Greg's response was excessive, but justifiable ICly (Greg might not have had the best reflexes or judgement in the heat of conflict, not being an experienced fighter - his intent was clearly to stop the fight. If anything, the quadruple flash would have been an IC issue)

-Nightmare's LOOC comment was done in the heat of the moment, and had nothing to do with his quality as an admin (which is why it wasn't sent through a PM) - people are still allowed to express themselves and have thoughts, and the full situation from both sides wasn't known at the time.

Let me know if we can all agree on these points, and if so (or not), how you'd all wish to proceed.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

I can agree to that, Frances. With reluctance, but still acceptance - in the IC regard. The IC behaviour of Nasir was, in this instance, perhaps justifiable to an extent, but I am still bothered that it's a symptom of the long-term behaviour he exhibits. He's still accused myself and Tishinastalker of lying, and has himself lied about Nasir's conduct in the past, and his statements justifying them are questionable.

 

Nasir doesn't like your CE, how he does things, or how he talks. Its as simple as that.

Isn't this borderline metagrudge? Ignoring your boss as soon as he arrives on the station then cussing him out for such a petty IC reason? Your boss?

 

Yes, Nasir was uncaring about your threats to fire him because he's completely aware as to who the captain was that round and knew that they would see how full of shit your CE was.

Full of shit? You mean doing things like asking what you're doing? A status report request makes him full of shit? Asking him to do something - delegating his engineers which is his primary job - is bullshit? And you're using "I have friends in high places" to justify that behaviour?

 

Nasir pain RP's fine when I do it. Im not going to spend 30 minutes of /me over a stubbed toe. I pain RP when I pain RP.

My complaint that he ignores being hit with enough force to slow down a hulk is met with this? It's a logical fallacy and belittles my argument.

 

I also don't believe that Nasir has given 'death threats' for a sec officer trying to do a 100% legal and legit arrest for someone abusing comms, I also think that is untrue.

So Tishina, myself, Rebel, and others who were on the security team during that incident are all liars? What? At least Phoebe and Izemut both know when to stop or refrain themselves most of the time. But with Nasir it's just blown up to 11. I rue joining the station as sec with you on because I know we're going to have to deal with you if we dare do something so heinous and horrible as to issue a warning to someone for comms abuse.

I can understand feeling ballsy enough, thinking that he could take on three officers, but continuing his assault without relenting after being shot, stunned, AND tased multiple times? Please no. This is "outrageous behaviour" at its finest.

I'm not even the only one that brought it up in this thread.

 

And Nasir's upgrade to harm intent, even in this case was /after/ the botanist started punching him first.

He smashed the botanists face into glass as the first move of the fight. This is harm intent in everything but having the red box enabled. That's not even in question - it's incredibly violent. The fight was justified IC, fine - but you can't say that this wasn't the catalyst to it and that it wasn't violent.

The cusp of the matter is that Nasir plays like the anti-thesis of what administration expects from player-characters. His attitude is toxic towards everyone around him except the female humans he ignores the entire station to sit with (becoming violent if you interrupt their date), he has ridiculous anger issues and is confrontational, hyper-violent to the point that angering him puts your very life at risk, and is extremely unpleasant to deal with in both an IC and OOC manner. Making snide remarks about redshirts? Fine, we'll brig you if you do it excessively or issue stern warnings. As Constantine I brigged Phoebe for a few minutes for insulting an officer when she got excessive with it (From an IC point of view.) After that, she lowered her level of toxicity towards Constantine, because she understood that her actions carried consequences. (Even if she's hilariously mean about him when she thinks he can't hear her.)

In a same situation, the situation would probably have Constantine with a cracked skull and paincrit, and Nasir would drag the entire security department into a manhunt as he single-handedly goes Rambo against everything in a red shirt. This isn't even a hypothetical - it's exactly what he did on the holodeck in a different context. How is this acceptable behaviour?

[Frances]

In an attempt to clarify things, there seems to be two complaints here:

-Nasir's toxicity as a character, and his ability to get into confrontations

-The means through which Nightmare executes fights while playing as Nasir

On the first, I'll say that I never saw Nasir start fights without reason. Yes, he's prone to overreacting, but a lot of people are. That is an IC flaw. The way through which it is carried out does not seem unreasonable to me - characters who get into repeated fights are somewhat of a grey area, especially when things are kept canon - but he's not the first to have done things which have toed the line of what would get an employee fired, and as far as I know, we've never asked people to stop playing characters unless this was a constant and repeated issue.

He has the right to start fights like that, from a RP standpoint. Should he still be allowed to come in to work after it happening so much? That's something for Nightmare and other players to discuss, and find grounds to agree on.

On the second complaint, which is fighting and pain RP.

I'll go ahead and say that Nasir is a fairly robust character. He's a Tajaran, has the claws damage bonus, and it can be fairly safely assumed that the Tajaran physique is more built for combat than the human one. He's also not some 22-year old nurse fresh off med school - working cargo jobs, it makes sense for him to be tough. Now, there's a point at which we usually intervene - for example, when someone keeps fighting with two broken arms, or powers through being shocked multiple times to hack out of their jail cell. But if your complaint is essentially that he managed to outrobust three security officers who stunned him several times, I'm actually going to turn to the sec officers, and inquire as to why they were unable to subdue him when he should have been, by all accounts, stunlocked and handcuffed the moment he went down.

There's such a thing as violent offenders. You stun them, cuff them, and you're done. As long as they're not spamming resist ten million times after being caught, or trying to escape by going on a spacewalk without a suit, I'm going to call this an IC issue.

Lastly, on metagrudging:

Isn't this borderline metagrudge? Ignoring your boss as soon as he arrives on the station then cussing him out for such a petty IC reason?

I'd like to know exactly what the history these two characters had. I think there's limits to the metagrudging rule, and it's in place to prevent people from hating on characters who outrobusted them while antag in a previous round, for example. But certain negative experiences will carry a level of canonicality - you can't be a dick to your staff every round, then expect them to treat you nicely forever because "negative interactions aren't canon unless agreed".

[Chaznoodles]

Staff should be held to higher account than players, due to the position held. Staff should always be well-mannered and polite OOCly, and should refrain from doing things which could be counted as grief.

If Nightmare did indeed throw the botanist into the glass and smash it at the beginning of the fight, then he should be counted as the instigator and dealt with as such. Alongside this, remember that clawing attacks deal extra damage, and that the botanist was severely wounded, possibly in a way to disrupt their round, without real cause. There is no real excuse for acting like this. We ban players for doing things like this. Administrators should not be treated any differently.

Personally, I'll see if I can grab Mocheeze at some point and ask him what happened from his view (Unless I've missed his post here), amd bring it back to this discussion.

A final note. From my perspective, Ffrances, you appear to be defending Nasir's actions unconditionally. Try ro look from the perspective of the other side. Also, Nightmare. You're held in high regard in a high position on this server. Act like it.

If anyone has any individual concerns that they are unhappy to voice in this thread for worry of being shot down or bandwagoned against, message a staff member who is not involved in this discussion and they will bring it to this thread.

[TishinaStalker]

If Nightmare did indeed throw the botanist into the glass and smash it at the beginning of the fight, then he should be counted as the instigator and dealt with as such. Alongside this, remember that clawing attacks deal extra damage, and that the botanist was severely wounded, possibly in a way to disrupt their round, without real cause.

 

Side note: I /think/ the botanist's face was broken from hitting the glass. I think I remember seeing him as Unknown without a mask, but I do not recall properly. In the case that his face was broken (which could've been likely as I'm pretty sure that throwing people against reinforced windows can break bones [Drengr accidentally broke a dude's arm while arresting him because he threw him, and it was hilarious]), if it wasn't for the fact that this happened during crew transfer procedures, then the botanist would definitely have had to undergo surgery, and surgery is definitely a disruption to someone's round. Some surgeons shake awake their patients because they don't want to be a bigger disruption than they already are, and, really, what sort of surgeon shakes their patient until they wake up post-surgery? Not saying that I personally think surgeons doing that is bad because it shows that they're being considerate for their fellow players, since putting someone under the knife effectively takes you out for quite a bit.

[Nightmare]

It was normal glass that he was thrown into, which did little damage. After throwing him into it, I tried to run away until he struck me 3 times, then of course im going to fight back. The only reason that he was seriously hurt is because the botanist kept fighting. Im not going to kept getting hit and not fight back, that's silly. We ban people if they fight with no lead up to it or for no reason. I believe this fight was completely fine. I threw him into glass, he got up and started punching me, so I started punching back. If you expect we to stand there and get beat up...im not exactly sure i'll be doing that.

If I was walking down the street, and someone tripped me, chances are I'd push them, yes most defintally. If they got up after and started swinging at me, chances are likely that I'd fight back. If he got hurt during the fight, well things happen. So no, I disagree with this being any type of grief.

[Frances]

Staff should be held to higher account than players, due to the position held. Staff should always be well-mannered and polite OOCly, and should refrain from doing things which could be counted as grief.

Explain to me how this was grief.

If Nightmare did indeed throw the botanist into the glass and smash it at the beginning of the fight, then he should be counted as the instigator and dealt with as such.

Except Nightmare had an IC reason for what he did (shoving someone into a window because they tripped them on banana peels), while Mocheeze had none (laying down banana peels to trip people, because... it's funny?)

Alongside this, remember that clawing attacks deal extra damage, and that the botanist was severely wounded, possibly in a way to disrupt their round, without real cause. There is no real excuse for acting like this. We ban players for doing things like this. Administrators should not be treated any differently.

If you had read the thread, you would see that everybody agrees that Nasir had the right to react the way he did in this specific instance, for the least. Night didn't start punching the fuck out of that botanist for no reason. The botanist decided to start fighting the already pissed-off, scary-looking beast, and got fucked as a result.

A final note. From my perspective, Ffrances, you appear to be defending Nasir's actions unconditionally. Try ro look from the perspective of the other side.

I feel like I've considered and debated this in a reasonable manner, taking in consideration everyone's actions and perspectives. The only mistake (?) I seem to be doing in your eyes is favoring Nasir's point of view. Tell me how I've ignored the botanist, though, because I've done my best to consider his actions (which do seem to put him at fault, or at least, make him accountable).

[Chaznoodles]

Apologies if this seems out of order in any way Ffrances, but that's exactly what I mean. I feel like my point there was not listened to in favour of taking a defensive stance.

 

Staff should be held to higher account than players, due to the position held. Staff should always be well-mannered and polite OOCly, and should refrain from doing things which could be counted as grief.

 

Nasir took a player out the round for what would have been an extremely long period of time due to the injuries given, however due to the escape shuttle being in progress, noneof the surgery was carried out. If a player beat someone to critical, breaking numerous bones and taking them out of the round for an extended period because they slipped him on a banana peel, how would we react? In this case, the window throwing should not have happened, as it sparked off the whole encounter. Who in their right mind would slip on a banana peel, then go over to the person ho did it and smash a window with their face?

 

If Nightmare did indeed throw the botanist into the glass and smash it at the beginning of the fight, then he should be counted as the instigator and dealt with as such.

 

Again, how would we react if we messaged a player about this, and their reasoning was 'He slipped me on a banana peel'? Mocheeze's character was thrown into a window which smashed. The character in question may have just been a messy character, or something to those lines. Not having read about the character, I do not know.

 

Alongside this, remember that clawing attacks deal extra damage, and that the botanist was severely wounded, possibly in a way to disrupt their round, without real cause. There is no real excuse for acting like this. We ban players for doing things like this. Administrators should not be treated any differently.

 

Everyone agreeing with his actions does not stop me from disagreeing with them. Nasir started this incident with the window-throw in my opinion, and turned away from roleplay in favour of beating someone near to death, picking it back up when it stopped, alongside the previous reasoning. You can't just say that he got what he deserved because he was part of it, because that's not how things should work.

Alright, here's the questions I asked Mocheeze, and the answers he provided, from his point of view:

 

[Frances]

Alright, neato. Seeing Mocheeze's account, I'm pretty much willing to retract the blame I was placing on him. Is wanting to trip people over banana peels as a prank against the rules? Not as a sole action. But was Nightmare at fault? I can't agree with that.

The reaction of shoving someone into a glass pane was excessive ICly. Someone tripped you, you lose your shit, you dunk them into a pane of glass. It should carry IC consequences. But given that the botanist chose to fight Nasir right after that (chose as in "punched repeatedly"), I really fail to see this as griefing. You get into fights, you risk getting injured. Considering I would argue that Mocheeze was the one that was not letting up after getting his face clawed out (basically being stopped by paincrit) and that there were a lot of punches being thrown by the botanist, I'm still heavily tempted to file this one under reasonable escalation.

There was no killing, and there was no attacking of people who were already downed. Who initiated the fight doesn't matter as much as how the fight progressed. And given that the botanist fairly willingly continued for the punching of fists in the other party's face for as long as possible, I find it just that they be met with an equal number of fists being shoved in their own direction.

Basically,

Again, how would we react if we messaged a player about this, and their reasoning was 'He slipped me on a banana peel'?

is not an accurate portrayal of events. "A character with temper issues shoved me into a pane of glass when I tripped him on a banana peel, then I reacted by punching him and we both fought" would be closer to reality.

One last argument I could see being brought up about this is that Tajaran and Unathi players have an extra responsibility in fighting due to their racial damage bonus (claws). To which I'll simply reply that players who are in possession of a gun are expected to play fair with it and not shoot people at the drop of a hat, but if somebody glaringly ignores the gun in a situation where it is obvious they should not be ignoring it, they have full right to expect getting shot.

[EvilBrage]

I can't say I have any problems with Nightmare as an administrator, but I do have problems with Nasir as a character; I can recall a few instances that could be described, at very least, as "unbecoming." Mind, I have to reach about a month or two back, but I remember playing Internal Affairs and watching Nasir climb over the bar again and again to get drunk, and every time, he was arrested for doing so. Soon enough, the transfer shuttle was coming and my character informed Nasir that he would be filing an official report with Central Command about his behavior, to which he casually replies to the effect of, "what you say doesn't matter, they'll just hire me again for the next shift like they always do." Threats of physical violence were abound after the exchange as well. I can also recall numerous instances in which fear and common sense were ignored in favor of charging my antagonist characters with nothing but claws.

It is ridiculous that an administrator was so willing to disturb the atmosphere by drawing upon the very OOC knowledge that CentCom will not fire anyone unless their players decide to shelve a character, and that in and of itself is telling of Nightmare's attitude while playing Nasir, I believe. He is incapable of playing Nasir in a disadvantageous position, whether it be fear, pain, lack of intelligence, or simple self-preservation. It's my belief that he associates himself with Nasir too deeply, and his pride results in this kind of behavior. I haven't noticed this happen with any other characters, but again, I haven't actually seen any of his other characters, which may indicate that Nasir is the only one he's played for a while. Switching characters around is important to keep them all fresh.

No one should have to dread interacting with a particular character; games are supposed to be fun.

[Dea Tacita]

I can't say I have any problems with Nightmare as an administrator, but I do have problems with Nasir as a character; I can recall a few instances that could be described, at very least, as "unbecoming." Mind, I have to reach about a month or two back, but I remember playing Internal Affairs and watching Nasir climb over the bar again and again to get drunk, and every time, he was arrested for doing so. Soon enough, the transfer shuttle was coming and my character informed Nasir that he would be filing an official report with Central Command about his behavior, to which he casually replies to the effect of, "what you say doesn't matter, they'll just hire me again for the next shift like they always do." Threats of physical violence were abound after the exchange as well. I can also recall numerous instances in which fear and common sense were ignored in favor of charging my antagonist characters with nothing but claws.

It is ridiculous that an administrator was so willing to disturb the atmosphere by drawing upon the very OOC knowledge that CentCom will not fire anyone unless their players decide to shelve a character, and that in and of itself is telling of Nightmare's attitude while playing Nasir, I believe. He is incapable of playing Nasir in a disadvantageous position, whether it be fear, pain, lack of intelligence, or simple self-preservation. It's my belief that he associates himself with Nasir too deeply, and his pride results in this kind of behavior. I haven't noticed this happen with any other characters, but again, I haven't actually seen any of his other characters, which may indicate that Nasir is the only one he's played for a while. Switching characters around is important to keep them all fresh.

No one should have to dread interacting with a particular character; games are supposed to be fun.

 

Nightmare is a pretty gr8 admin and a decently close friend whose been there when I need them. But that aside, I do agree with generally everything stated here.

Another example, and I believe that this has probably already been mentioned is a situation where I was Head of Security and Nasir disabled/injured the entirety of security, around 8 or so officers from what I recall. Though my memory isn't what it once was, so I might be wrong on that. But regardless, his character was tazed, stunned, and, flashed dozens of times, and, yet he continued to rambo through security without a modicum of roleplay. He wasn't even involved in the arrest being made actually. Eventually, when he was finally detained. His character did nothing but attempt to escape, curse at everyone involved even remotely in the situation, and scream about how he was going to "Crush my wind pipe" or something equally crude.

But yeah, mistakes were made on both sides of that incident (Myself included) but....honestly, that alone just.... murdered playing security for me.

[Farcry11]

So, is this, like, resolved? Seems important that something be said definitively about this.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Wow I didn't realize this was still open.

Nasir's behaviour seems to have drastically changed from what I've observed. He looks to still be a buttface, but he's no longer a hotheaded time-bomb that has explosive psychosis every 5 minutes. I've not had any OOC issues with his behaviour since this complaint, and personally consider this entire matter settled in a favourable way.