Staff Complaint - TishinaStalker

[Frances]

BYOND Key: FFrances

Staff BYOND Key: TishinaStalker

Reason for complaint: I don't even really know what to call it

Evidence/logs/etc:

 

LOOC: LividCake: phoebe's first shift was fun

LOOC: LividCake: :I

LOOC: FFrances: shame, now you must create a new character

LOOC: FFrances: it would be improper to play another round as a character who is deceased

LOOC: LividCake: yes, i know

LOOC: FFrances: which is why I have had over 305 characters during the course of my time on this server

LOOC: FFrances: they all have the exact same appearance, age, and personality

LOOC: Nikov: Stop lying to her, everyone gets cloned.

LOOC: FFrances: wait, you can play as the same char again?

Secondary Admin PM from-TishinaStalker: Why are you deliberately telling her it would not be right to play the same character just because she died in a round?

PM to-TishinaStalker: are we not allowed to joke around now?

Secondary Admin PM from-TishinaStalker: You're not even making it clear that you're joking. It seems like you convinced her that it's a fact and not a joke.

PM to-TishinaStalker: I wasn't finished talking to them?

Secondary Admin PM from-TishinaStalker: Someone had to call you out on it and then you played totally clueless, man.

Secondary Admin PM from-TishinaStalker: Another player had to call you out on LOOC and then you proceeded to play clueless by saying "wait, you can play as the same char again?"

Secondary Admin PM from-TishinaStalker: You have a terrible sense of humor. Your sense of humor here shows: "I'm going to give false information. If someone calls me out, then I play clueless. haha, jokes." That's not really funny in the slightest for anyone but you and it misdirects others.

PM to-TishinaStalker: Except I'm fairly sure the other person could see right away what I was saying was in a nonserious tone, and they replied in kind?

PM to-TishinaStalker: Let's verify

LOOC: FFrances: Lividcake?

LOOC: LividCake: what

LOOC: FFrances: did you genuinely believe players were no longer allowed to play as characters who had died in a round?

LOOC: LividCake: no, im not new to ss13, yo

LOOC: LividCake: Linus has died a bunch

LOOC: FFrances: a game administrator would nevertheless like me to inform you that that is not the case

LOOC: LividCake: still play him

LOOC: FFrances: and is informing me my joke was in bad taste

LOOC: FFrances: so I apologize

LOOC: LividCake: it's fine

LOOC: LividCake: lol

PM to-TishinaStalker: want to join our conversation in looc?

Secondary Admin PM from-TishinaStalker: Now you're just doing this to infuriate me, FFrances.

PM to-TishinaStalker: er, sure, if you want to believe that over common sense, go ahead

Secondary Admin PM from-TishinaStalker: It's the only thing common sense is pointing to, but it doesn't matter, really. Don't try to misinform players like that unless you're explicitly going to say "Hey, it's a joke." Thank you.

PM to-TishinaStalker: I believe you're being a little strict here?

Secondary Admin PM from-TishinaStalker: No, I'm really not. I'm simply making sure that you're not misinforming players and I'm telling you to be more cautious about it.

PM to-TishinaStalker: Even when the other player was quite obviously in the know and joking back?

Secondary Admin PM from-TishinaStalker: I'm simply making *sure*. I'm not even here to argue, but you're still continuing this. It's simply "Don't misinform players as a joke. They might take it seriously." "But you're being strict *more and more lines*" instead of "Okay".

PM to-TishinaStalker: I think you /are/ being excessively strict considering the context. That's a level of hugboxing beyond anything I've ever seen.

Secondary Admin PM from-TishinaStalker: If I was being strict, then I would be giving you a warning. Guess what I'm doing instead? Saying "Please don't misinform players as jokes. They might take it seriously." Thank you. Discussion over.

PM to-TishinaStalker: It's not the degree of punishment, it's the fact that players are being boinked over making silly jokes like this.

Secondary Admin PM from-TishinaStalker: Thank you. Discussion over.

Additional remarks:

Above logs should be enough, I can provide more information or explanations if needed.

[Gollee]

I'm with Tish.

You were making a joke to a player Tish thought was new.

Tish asks you to cut it out.

You proceed to get pretty obnoxious and rude, when it could have been very easily solved by you remembering the concerns admins have, and that it looks like that person may be on the verge of character deletion.

Seriously, this could have just been solved by you saying, "Right, okay, sorry, but I'm pretty sure they know it's a joke, should I ask?"

I am sort of dissapointed that you, a previous headmin has fallen to being so uncooperative lawyer-y and fond of wordplay, when you know how stressful adminning is, maybe try and remember what it's like in their shoes?

[VikingPingvin]

Reason for complaint: I don't even really know what to call it

 

Me neither. What was your point in making this complaint?

[Frances]

Tishina was fairly short and direct, as was I. I was a bit taken aback, and I don't think my reaction was uncalled, given that he immediately described my actions as "an attempt to deliberately mislead another player for my own amusement", and proved that he had no clear understanding of the situation. Compare:

Secondary Admin PM from-TishinaStalker: You're not even making it clear that you're joking.

LOOC: FFrances: which is why I have had over 305 characters during the course of my time on this server

LOOC: FFrances: they all have the exact same appearance, age, and personality

 

There was also a brief exchange over a misunderstanding early on (which I've omitted as it was irrelevant) in which Tish acted very tense and somewhat accusatory. I don't really understand how anything I did was out of line, given that the server's staff has a longtime habit of deliberately antagonizing most players they have to PM.

 

Me neither. What was your point in making this complaint?

The two quotes just above in this message should help single out the issue.

[SoapyCup]

I don't see any wrongdoing by Tish.

He was simply making sure that a possibly new player wasn't getting false information.

Frances easily could have just the player in LOOC if he/she knew that Frances was joking. Frances just caused a long, unneeded argument.

[Frances]

Frances easily could have just the player in LOOC if he/she knew that Frances was joking. Frances just caused a long, unneeded argument.

Except I did. Tish and I exchanged about five messages (most of which consisted of me being confused and him trying to explain why he thought what I did was bad) before I asked the player if they were aware I was joking (which already seemed pretty obvious due to the "yes, i know" they had replied, but I mostly wanted to show/reassure Tish that everything was good between this person and I).

How am I the bad person here? Was my joke truly in bad enough taste to warrant being admin-PMed and asked to not do it again?

[Garnascus]

alright, i really feel like i gotta say something here.... First off i just dont really feel right in how tish handled it, i mean i would have spoken too you as well probably but i would have probably said something like "hey man just be more explicit in case new players are actually watchin" which is a valid concern i think since we have had a lot of new players recently. Frances i admit, i dont really know who you are but i understand you were once a headmin of this server and from your posts here i really think your presence here does more good than harm.

I just recently joined as a moderator but ill be frank, ive been around the block in situations like this and i get the feeling there is a tension revolving around you and certain staff members. now i dont have the right to preach to you nor am i gonna try to lecture anyone on how to handle things. I think we are all just very passionate individuals, in this case it happens to be about space station thirteen. Sometimes that passion can do some pretty amazing things but it can also drive us to go a little over the edge sometimes. My advice is we /all/ take a step back here and re-evaluatewhat we are here for and why we came here in the first place.

[Frances]

@Garnascus

I've always been a relatively aloof person on here. I tend to rely on moderate amounts of shitposting to drive my point from time to time (though not nearly as badly as some people do), but I'd like to think in the end I'm always down for having a honest discussion.

It is true that there have been tensions between the staff and I lately, and I can guess they're mostly due to the fact that I sometimes like to play bald characters and basically chucklefuck - however, short of being asked to tone down my act twice (and a recent jobban which was a dumb experience imo) there hasn't really been any communication. I really wouldn't mind if admins tried to talk to me more, and if they outright asked me to stop playing non-serious characters I'd be down with that, but my experience has been more about a few arbitrary reprimands here and there along with being treated like a second-class citizen (though I'm not sure if everyone has to face that these days, but I can assume most staff's reactions whenever I post in this forum is "oh, dear, not another complaint by Frances")

So, yeah, I wish people were nicer to each other, and you make a good point, but as a whole what I'm looking to discuss with these complaints is the underlying issues of reprimands being doled out over silly things, and in ways that are probably exaggerated. I wasn't particularly patient with Tishina, but I can 100% assure you that it was because the way he contacted me wasn't particularly fun, and I (along with what I assume to be a lot of people) would've reacted the same way regardless of who the involved admin was or whatever history the two parties may have.

However, unless I'm being targeted in particular for admin intervention (which I don't believe to be the case), then this remains a problem because it's something that other users could encounter, and I don't want anyone to get boinked because they attempted to crack what was obviously a joke (and immediately being accused of trying to troll players in a shitty way for their own amusement).

Edit: For the most part I try to remain direct and matter-of-fact in my dealings, but I'd be lying if I said my most recent experiences with the staff didn't somewhat piss me off, and I think anyone reasonable enough should be able to understand why. People are rude, dismissive, they're not very good at communicating, the administration's stance on certain issues has been outright puzzling, and so on.

[Garnascus]

Maybe its that they feel that type of "chucklefucking" isnt something someone like you should be doing in the first place, maybe its less a case of them not communicating with you and more of a case of them feeling you should know where the line is in the first place. Especially since you have been in this position and can relate to how frustrating dealing with some of them can be ( not that ive witnessed very much of your play so i cant really say ). Like i said though, im only speculating and i dont have the right to preach to anyone here. not that i want too anyway.

The issue of reprimands that you feel being doled out unnecesarily is a tricky topic. Ive only been on staff for a little while (im still in trial) but when i handle an ahelp i was actually surprised how much the higher ranked people leave the decision and handling of it entirely up to me, or the person handling it. Within reason they offer advice of course but the final judgement is almost always up to whoever answers the ahelp or initiates contact, An important point i want to stress though is that among my fellow moderators and the admins (tish included) they almost always ask the opinion or discuss the judgement in msay.

I think in this instance tish was right to speak with you but the way they spoke to you is not the way i would have, essentially what i want to get across is we arent a hivemind i dont think and some of us would handle a situation a little differently.

[Frances]

Hm. Well, I don't really agree that this situation was PM-worthy. I made a statement to the fact that character deaths were always permanent on the server, which caused me to create over 300 characters which all happened to be identical copies of each other - I don't understand how anyone could possibly take that seriously.

But what if we assume they did? Because I remember coming on Aurora, more than a year ago, with only the general knowledge that LRP servers favored randomizing character names every round as to avoid metabuddying. I thought the concept of permadeath for complex, roleplayed characters was sorta interesting and sorta hardcore, so I inquired in OOC as to whether that was the case (and rather quickly got a clear explanation).

Point of that is, if someone was actually unsure about HRP's stance on character death, I'm fairly sure they'd find a way to acquire information from a more reliable source than a passing and somewhat ridiculous comment a random person made in LOOC. And if the person involved here had expressed genuine confusion, a simple "nah, I'm just fucking with you" would've dispelled any doubts. Because really, do you expect a person to make 300 copies of the same character to arbitrarily circumvent some extreme rule? That seems like a pretty humorous and fictitious situation to me.

And I mean, I've seen admins joke about stuff all the time. There's countless "banned" jokes and sometimes it can be pretty hard to get a proper answer out of OOC about a question, yet nobody seems to bat an eyelid at that. It's the internet, and I'm not a kindergarten teacher feeding her students false information about the world or anything terrible like that. If the server's administration has to protect its users from common jokes, I'd say the amount of faith they have in them is disappointing.

[Doomberg]

I don't really understand how anything I did was out of line, given that the server's staff has a longtime habit of deliberately antagonizing most players they have to PM.

 

I'm sorry, allow me to pitch in here for a second.

 

You're an idiot. You were always an idiot. Notes are here to represent how much of an idiot you are, and they are not biased, because you acted like an idiot and were given notes that represent it, so that next time you act like an idiot, our staff actually knows to punish you appropriately rather than giving you another slap on the wrist (that you will clearly disregard or argue against).

 

Hypocrisy is a wonderful thing, isn't it? God forbid one of our administrators actually happens to come off as mildly abrasive when PMing you, though - you're liable to demand a refund, it would appear. Setting this little charade aside, allow me to exercise my suspension of disbelief and pretend that you are trying to achieve something constructive with this complaint: You are a former head administrator. You made a misleading joke, Tish attempted to both gauge your intent in making it and tell you not to do this kind of thing because a genuinely new player might actually take it seriously. You responded by taking it to LOOC in an obviously infuriating gesture. There isn't even any punishment to contest, here.

[Frances]

Hypocrisy is a wonderful thing, isn't it? God forbid one of our administrators actually happens to come off as mildly abrasive when PMing you, though - you're liable to demand a refund, it would appear. Setting this little charade aside, allow me to exercise my suspension of disbelief and pretend that you are trying to achieve something constructive with this complaint: You are a former head administrator. You made a misleading joke, Tish attempted to both gauge your intent in making it and tell you not to do this kind of thing because a genuinely new player might actually take it seriously. You responded by taking it to LOOC in an obviously infuriating gesture. There isn't even any punishment to contest, here.

If you could link to the thread this quote came from, then you'd at least give people the chance to see that it was that person's third (?) ban appeal, in which they repeatedly insulted the staff while demanding whatever ridiculous thing. The proper term isn't exactly apples to oranges, but... it's a different magnitude, is it not? (Edit: This was the full post, for consideration.)

Anyway.

I don't think you'll be able to stick a hypocrisy charge, because I never said I was blameless of this. It's the general attitude I was brought into the staff team with, and it's the one I've seen go continuously enforced through the year and a half I've spent here. I'm sorry if I didn't know I wasn't allowed to change my mind about it, or that me personally partaking in the "not being nice to users" movement made it so that I could never criticize anyone from doing the same thing ever again (though if you want to prove I've done bad as well, I'd pick a much better example than throwing a few insults at somebody who was already being a downright cock.)

I'm not trying to have a pissing match here, though your "allow me to pretend your post isn't shit" jab leads me to believe you might. And, in full honesty, come on? Don't resort to ad hominem, just look at the issue as it is. Are you really calling me pretending to have over 300 characters a misleading joke?

Edited August 4, 2015 by Guest

[Doomberg]

Don't resort to ad hominem

 

Refer to previous quote and kindly swallow your own medicine.

Moving on - yes, I am. A POTENTIALLY misleading joke if the player you're talking to is new. You have yet to explain the purpose of this complaint. Would you like staff to take back their PM, now?

[Frances]

Yes. I don't really care what happens to me, but I believe that as a whole, players should not be boinked for making what is basically clear and inoffensive jokes. (Again, I'll bring the amount of joking that goes in OOC regarding both the server rules and gameplay mechanics as something which does not seem to bother the admins significantly.) The purpose of this complaint is to bring attention to this problem, as I really don't understand why my joke would be singled out as something bad while I hardly believe anyone could take it seriously, or receive any harmful effects from it.

 

Refer to previous quote and kindly swallow your own medicine.

Where did I resort to ad hominem? You're also being downright hostile and I don't feel very comfortable with this. I have been on the defensive due to the way this situation is being handled, yes, but I believe I've tried my best to explain myself in a relatively straightforward fashion and you guys aren't reacting very maturely.

[Doomberg]

Yes. I don't really care what happens to me, but I believe that as a whole, players should not be boinked for making what is basically clear and inoffensive jokes. (Again, I'll bring the amount of joking that goes in OOC regarding both the server rules and gameplay mechanics as something which does not seem to bother the admins significantly.)

 

"Being Voltage/Pump is bannable" is not something anyone would ever believe.

 

The purpose of this complaint is to bring attention to this problem, as I really don't understand why my joke would be singled out as something bad while I hardly believe anyone could take it seriously, or receive any harmful effects from it.

That is your own interpretation - the handling staff member's may differ. Staff complaints exist to deal with unjust or inappropriate punishment, or poor conduct. Which of these is this complaint based on, exactly... ? I see neither from Tish.

 

Where did I resort to ad hominem?

 

The ban appeal you handily linked earlier. I wasn't referring to this thread.

 

You're also being downright hostile and I don't feel very comfortable with this. I have been on the defensive due to the way this situation is being handled, yes, but I believe I've tried my best to explain myself in a relatively straightforward fashion and you guys aren't reacting very maturely.

 

I distinctly recall it being your belief that players should sometimes be informed that they are being idiots, or something of that nature - and I have not even done that much. You have been acting like an entitled customer. I hate to say this, but you are neither of these things. I would rather not have my staff second-guess themselves or worry about every single call they have to make because there might be complaints like this sprouting the moment someone is slightly upset.

[Frances]

Ad hominem is bad when it's not relevant to the argument at hand. You're saying that because I was once rude to users, I have no right to criticize other admins for being rude to users, which is simply false. If you can find a way to explain why my actions from a year ago are relevant to Tishina's actions now, then I'll be glad to talk more about this. In the meantime, I don't understand why I'm going under personal scrutiny in my own complaint against somebody else - if you're mad at me for something I did, there's other places and means to deal with it. (Furthermore, I'd argue that calling someone a knobhead when they're being a knobhead isn't exactly a bad form of ad hominem, as irrelevant as that thread is now.)

Back to the joke, what exactly makes it so that when you think "being voltage is bannable" isn't a believable statement, it isn't, but when I think "I had to make 300 identical characters because of rules on permadeath" isn't, it is? Isn't a user being banned for simply existing about as ridiculous a premise as the one of a user creating the same character 300 times to circumvent a rule?

[Doomberg]

Ad hominem is bad when it's not relevant to the argument at hand.

It is, though. You're arguing against an approach that you, yourself, took when you were in my shoes.

 

Back to the joke, what exactly makes it so that when you think "being voltage is bannable" isn't a believable statement, it isn't, but when I think "I had to make 300 identical characters because of rules on permadeath" isn't, it is? Isn't a user being banned for simply existing about as ridiculous a premise as the one of a user creating the same character 300 times to circumvent a rule?

 

"Every death is permanent. I've already gone through 300 identical characters.". Second statement: An indication that the previous was a joke, or, an exaggeration/joke about the consequences of the previous statement - which is true - and its implications.

"Being Voltage is bannable." - Being Voltage is bannable. Obvious inside joke. No way to misinterpret.

[Frances]

It is, though. You're arguing against an approach that you, yourself, took when you were in my shoes.

So, wait, you're obviously portraying the approach as bad, yet when I complain that your staff is still engaging in it... it isn't?

 

"Every death is permanent. I've already gone through 300 identical characters.". Second statement: An indication that the previous was a joke, or, an exaggeration/joke about the consequences of the previous statement - which is true - and its implications.

"Being Voltage is bannable." - Being Voltage is bannable. Obvious inside joke. No way to misinterpret.

There was already an exaggeration: the fact that nobody sane would create 300 identical characters, nor that any mod would let this happen. I would argue that that statement would leave little to misinterpretation. What do you think?

[Doomberg]

So, wait, you're obviously portraying the approach as bad, yet when I complain that your staff is still engaging in it... it isn't?

 

I'm looking at your prior conduct of that sort as staff in contrast to Tish's. They are very, very different.

 

There was already an exaggeration: the fact that nobody sane would create 300 identical characters, nor would any mod let this happen. I would argue that that statement would leave little to misinterpretation.

 

I'm not sure what you're trying to say, here. That was the point - the 300 characters comment can be an exaggeration/joke about an already-existing permanent death rule, when, instead, let's say you lost 3. Regardless, iiiit's up to the responding staffer to interpret, and as it stands, I do not disagree with Tish's interpretation.

[Frances]

I'm looking at your prior conduct of that sort as staff in contrast to Tish's. They are very, very different.

Wouldn't you be better off examining Tish's conduct alone? The question isn't "was he as bad as X", the question is "was what he has done bad".

 

I'm not sure what you're trying to say, here. That was the point - the 300 characters comment can be an exaggeration/joke about an already-existing permanent death rule, when, instead, let's say you lost 3. Regardless, iiiit's up to the responding staffer to interpret, and as it stands, I do not disagree with Tish's interpretation.

Then yes, you have the right to throw my complaint out on the grounds of your personal belief that somebody could actually believe that a person would've created 300 of the same character to play a game, though to express myself in full honesty, I don't know who the fuck would actually believe that.

I would've liked for more people to comment on this, but if it's multiple admins' as well as the headmin's opinion, there's not much I can do. So I give up.

As a last question, though, how would you turn this joke into something acceptable?

[Doomberg]

Wouldn't you be better off examining Tish's conduct alone? The question isn't "was he as bad as X", the question is "was what he has done bad".

I feel like it's relevant to point out when I feel that the pot is calling the kettle black, is all. Said conduct is, in fact, an improvement from how past staff handled things, from what I've seen. It's being worked on.

As for how I'd turn the joke into something acceptable? Just... aim it at people whom you know are familiar with the rules already, or at the very least add a "that was a joke, by the way" at the end? It's not even really something I'd PM anyone for personally, I simply don't think that PMing you about it was inherently wrong.

In any case, as per our usual procedure, I'll be leaving this open for 24 hours before locking it.

[Frances]

Hm.

Well, maybe as a last addition since you're bringing up users being familiar with the rules, not once did I mention anything about an actual rule. Or server stance. Or admins.

I guess I didn't highlight that and now it might be a bit too late, but it's yet something else to consider.

[Doomberg]

That would kind of be debating semantics, at this point? The idea is: It can be misunderstood. Or, rather, if this would please you more, we believe it can be misunderstood.

[TishinaStalker]

This is the only post I'm going to put on this thread and it's everything that I need to say:

I finally realized why your post made me see red last night (which is why I refrained from posting on them). You completely and totally removed a very important part of your log. As it stands, you made it seem like I'm pissed at the fact that you asked Livid if they knew it was a joke and for apologizing. The fuck? You deliberately decided to leave out that people were making jokes at my expense in LOOC because of you with gems such as calling me a nazi. Were they jokes? Yes. Were they at my expense since I was the administrator in question? Yes. Would most people feel insulted when asked "want to join our conversation?" when the conversation is jokes at their expense? Yes. I would like you to explain that, but I personally don't really care at this point because you'll just go on another massive spiel to try and justify it like the wordsmith you are, and I don't have the energy or the cares to argue in circles with you over a small matter of "Jokes that can misinform are bad, alright?"

 

Would you like staff to take back their PM, now?

 

Yes

 

Tough. I'm not going to apologize at all for this matter. There are people on this server who have legitimately made TONS of characters because they have died; done so of their own accord of course. Now, lets say I'm a new player coming in to this heavy RP server. Maybe I already think "They might look down on that because heavy RP" or maybe I know one of these players and reading your message suddenly makes it tick "Ohhhh, so that's why". Misinformative jokes that leads to people getting rid of their characters is god awful, so I did my duty as an administrator; care for the player. I talked with you about how misinformative jokes can be bad unless you're explicitly saying that it's a joke, but you decided to give me this huge spiel about "Oh, you're being strict", and then wanted to keep pushing the arguement when it was a simple "Misinformative jokes are bad" "Alrighty", but instead you wanted to continue arguing because m-muh jokes, why aren't you laughing Tish?

That being said, no, I will not and I will never apologize to you for this regardless of what I'm told to do by other people or staff because I was acting in a way to care for another player on the server. Last I checked, that's my job here. I'm not going to apologize for doing my job in a justified manner. I'm sticking to my guns.

[Frances]

I legitimately thought you were pissed at me for asking LividCake a question (or at the very least for the overly polite and exaggerated way in which I did, which would've limit made sense.)

I did not attempt to "hide" anything in this complaint, but if you were to post the logs of the jokes that were made in LOOC, people could observe that:

• 1. These jokes were made in complete spontaneity by unrelated onlookers, and I did not provoke them myself
  
  2. I don't believe any of them were targeted at you since your name never came up (though my memory is a bit hazy on that, so feel free to correct me)
  
  3. They were another very, very obvious attempt at humor/satire, involving regular players such as Hivefleetchicken, and amounted to the equivalent of "the staff tell me I have to RP and won't even let me toolbox the clown, they're such nazis, right?"

 

I mean, I'm sorry if you took offense to that, and I agree that my "well, want to join us since nobody seems to have issues with my past comment" was a bit biting, though considering the way you opened your PMs over something that should not even have been an issue I feel like it was fairly well deserved.

Anyway, these were more jokes that were obviously inoffensive, but considering you already got mad at me for joking that I had over 300 characters I guess that was to be expected.

I understand your intent to protect players, and I fully agree with it, but I don't think there was anyone to be protected from this.

And again no, my argument still consists of "who's going to believe a random LOOC person claiming they have over 300 identical characters and base their entire SS13 HRP experience on that without questioning anything?" But there's not much I can do to prove that, since that argument mostly relies on common sense, and you guys don't seem to care.