I_speak_money Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 The gamemode vote. We've all seen it hundreds of times. Maybe even more. It is essentially the decision that we all, as a community, agree upon so that we can have an enjoyable medium of role-play for the following hours. But there's a problem with it: us. We're humans, we're not perfect. We are usually under the effect of some sort of psychological phenomena documented in someone's PhD dissertation. But the most prominent one we're exposed to is the herd mentality. What is the herd mentality you ask? Officially, herd mentality is the phenomena that describes how people are influenced by their peers to adopt certain behaviors, follow trends, and/or purchase items. How does that apply to us? Let me explain. The time for a vote is called. Some people select X gamemode. Some people select Y gamemode. Some people even select Z gamemode. But something particularly special happens, two-three more people select the Y gamemode. Suddenly, all of the other people who voted for their minority-gamemodes start switching into the Y gamemode. And here comes the division, some other people dump their votes into the Z gamemode. The division arises. Red versus blue. Y versus Z. Now, it doesn't matter if you wanted to play Heist or Ninja, but it's between Y and Z. An overwhelming majority pump their votes into Y and Z and hope for the best. Did you see what just happened? Did you see it? It's easy to miss, but I'll make it more clear. Suddenly, all of the other people who voted for their minority-gamemodes start switching into the Y gamemode. I've seen it happen so many times that I think I'm going crazy just seeing it happen. It's like clockwork. Nine times out of ten, this happens in the gamemode vote. In the most extreme of cases, everyone's vote is initially spread out through all the gamemodes, in which case the vote is actually the vote. But the majority of the time, the phenomena that was just previously mentioned happens. So what's the solution to this? Hide the votes. Just hide them. The visual presence of the vote numbers is essentially affecting the way people vote for the gamemode. Time for the next problem. Vote is 11:11 for either the X gamemode or the Y gamemode. And then there's that one fucking person who thinks s/he is the king. 12:11. 11:12. Those fucking vote hoppers. They're taking advantage of the previous problem. Want another solution to chop him down from his/her tree? Lock in the vote. Yep, that's right. Just lock them in. You want to play Heist? Alright, you're locked in for heist. That's it. No more beating around the bush between X and Y, it's just Heist for you now. Final problem. OOC vote manipulation. Hell, I'm even guilty of this. Remember the @@ Nuke nuke @@ spam crap that I pumped in OOC. Any time I managed to use some sort of odd symbol : (%, &, $, #, @, !!) along with the gamemode of my choice, nine times out of ten, the vote went through in my favor. Thankfully, it only took me two times of my crap before Doomberg put a halt on it, which I appreciate. What's the solution? Crank up the autovote from 75 to say, 100, and mute the OOC all the way until vote end. You know the part where the server starts talking math? Yeah, no OOC in that time period. By doing this, we're eliminating any possible chance within this game client of any vote manipulation/influencing. No more "@@ nuke baby @@"s or "%% heist time now %%"s for anyone to with or without intentions to influence the vote. So what's the point of all these changes? Why am I suggesting them? Why did I go out of my way to type up this post for you all to see? I care about the votes. The votes matter. I want the vote to be as accurate as possible. I don't want to play X just because 3-4 people wanted to play and everyone followed pursuit. I want to play X because a majority of the server actually wanted to play this gamemode. Thanks for reading, and as always, feel free to leave your appreciations, criticisms, or silence. Some of you have reached out to me to mention the people who always vote X gamemode despite everyone else's vote. My response? This isn't a perfect world. There's always outliers in the graph. Always. If Joe McHonk wants to always vote nuke, that's within his ability to do so. But for the rest of us, this system of changes if carried out correctly will make the game much more enjoyable.
Frances Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 The main problem I'd see with that is that secret is a high percentage more popular as a "starter" vote than any of the other gamemodes are. If 10 people want to play secret and 10 people want to play various specific gamemodes, secret is always going to win by default. What could we do to counter that? Also, I don't think there's any problem with "vote manipulation" (also known as "hey, guys, does anyone feel like playing vampire next round?") The main issue is it's outlawed because... it's outlawed. If nobody does it it gives an unfair advantage to the single person who mentions a gamemode, but I honestly wouldn't mind giving people a chance to discuss the next gamemode in a civil manner, proven it didn't turn into cries of "nuke, nuke, nuke!".
I_speak_money Posted August 25, 2015 Author Posted August 25, 2015 or we trust players to be adults The issue is not a matter of trust. The issue is the way our mind works. Like it or not, at one point in time during your life, you were exposed to the herd mentality. And during that exposure, you also acted in a way that you would not normally act whether you feel that way or not. It's just the way it works. The main problem I'd see with that is that secret is a high percentage more popular as a "starter" vote than any of the other gamemodes are. If 10 people want to play secret and 10 people want to play various specific gamemodes, secret is always going to win by default. What could we do to counter that? Secret versus non secret is a whole other issue that needs to be addressed appropriately, but with the removal of the vote counts next to the gamemode, that is essentially allowing for a pseudo-secret gamemode vote. No one really knows what vote it is, until the autovote ends. In that case, we can still classify that information until the actual game starts.
Frances Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 Well, the only I could see this work would be by removing secret whatsoever and having the vote results "be" the secret round (basically not announcing the roundtype until the end of the game). A problem with that is that sometimes it can be really inconvenient to not know what the gamemode is. Some people only queue up certain characters for certain gamemodes (for example I might want to continue my office romance if it's extended, but queue up my action-hero doctor (with antag prefs on) if I know it's gonna be nuke). (Terrible examples I know)
I_speak_money Posted August 25, 2015 Author Posted August 25, 2015 A problem with that is that sometimes it can be really inconvenient to not know what the gamemode is. Some people only queue up certain characters for certain gamemodes (for example I might want to continue my office romance if it's extended, but queue up my action-hero doctor (with antag prefs on) if I know it's gonna be nuke).(Terrible examples I know) That would also be sufficient. Round types: AP (action-packed), LA (little-action), NA (no action).
jackfractal Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 I don't think it's herd mentality at all. The thought process there would be "Everyone is voting nuke, so I'll vote nuke too! Baaa!" That's... not how it usually works. What it usually is, is voting against the other mode. "I hate nuke! I want to play extended, but if it's a vote between Ninja or Nuke, I'll vote Ninja." I really like the idea of probability-based voting. Votes are hidden, and you vote where you want. Every vote gives the round-type a chance in the dice-roll to pick the round-type. I could see that working really well.
Eliot Clef Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 I don't actually have a problem with basically anything you're identifying as a problem. I'm totally cool with people changing their votes. I'm totally cool with people changing their votes specifically to vote against a game mode they wouldn't like to play. If a few people would like to play Z but a narrow majority vote X and sufficient people would rather change their vote to Y to avoid X, I think that's completely fair. If X had enough overall support people wouldn't change away from their niche game modes to Y to avoid it. Honestly, I think the main thing hiding or locking the votes would do is make Secret the safest game mode for everyone to vote for.
LordFowl Posted August 26, 2015 Posted August 26, 2015 http://aurorastation.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=2006&p=19051&hilit=voting#p19051
I_speak_money Posted August 26, 2015 Author Posted August 26, 2015 http://aurorastation.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=2006&p=19051&hilit=voting#p19051 Let us not derail this thread into just thinking that it's all about the vote-hopping. There are other factors at play.
canon35 Posted August 26, 2015 Posted August 26, 2015 I think we shouldn't change it. Just keep it as is, that way we won't constantly get secret. Most of the time, people vote for Z (If Z is something not-secret) because they dislike secret. I personally dislike secret extended, which is why I don't normally vote for it.
LordFowl Posted August 26, 2015 Posted August 26, 2015 http://aurorastation.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=2006&p=19051&hilit=voting#p19051 Let us not derail this thread into just thinking that it's all about the vote-hopping. There are other factors at play. One third of your argument is about vote-hopping entirely. Furthermore, the thread I just listed is not solely in concerns of vote-hopping, as it also discusses the 'group-think' which the rest of your topic concerns itself with.
Guest Posted August 26, 2015 Posted August 26, 2015 Yep, I recall that thread. My belief on how voting works is relatively the same, and from what I've seen the 'group-think' still remains since then. By the time SoundScopes started doubting it there wasn't any point in continuing. I myself doubt the voting system is going to be changed, even though I'd really like invisible voting numbers.
Frances Posted August 26, 2015 Posted August 26, 2015 Maybe to refocus discussion a bit, the biggest hurdle this suggestion would encounter is that if left completely uninfluenced, there would always be a greater portion of people voting for secret than for any other gamemode. What would you all suggest to counter that?
Guest Posted August 26, 2015 Posted August 26, 2015 We could always put in mutiny/revolutionnonotreallythisgamemodesucks/heist into secret, and buff up the chance for team-based antagonist modes. Except nuke, that needs to stay at the bottom due to how destructive it can be just to blitz it.
Frances Posted August 26, 2015 Posted August 26, 2015 So you mean remove voting altogether (unless it's between secret and extended), and only run secret?
Frances Posted August 26, 2015 Posted August 26, 2015 So just add these gamemodes to secret? (Aren't they already, though?)
Guest Posted August 26, 2015 Posted August 26, 2015 What's the solution? Crank up the autovote from 75 to say, 100, and mute the OOC all the way until vote end. You know the part where the server starts talking math? Yeah, no OOC in that time period. By doing this, we're eliminating any possible chance within this game client of any vote manipulation/influencing. No more "@@ nuke baby @@"s or "%% heist time now %%"s for anyone to with or without intentions to influence the vote. The vote starts at 75 to give people time to connect, that will not change. OOC gets muted for votes automatically and staff should be telling people off who try to influence the vote beforehand. Unless you want OOC muted until the vote has taken place but that stops people talking about the previous round while waiting for the next. Here you are asking for something that is already implemented. I will say this thread is the same as http://aurorastation.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=2006&p=19051&hilit=voting#p19051 this thread, but with more psychology involved. Check to make sure the suggestion hasn't been done before making a new thread Just because you add one or two more details doesn't mean the suggestion is not the same.I'm well aware of the heard effect, I'm also aware that when people are faced with an unknown, they will usually try to head for a safest most familiar option. If you removed the ability to see votes then you will have more people who will only vote secret or nuke (Our community has shown meny times that these are the most requested gamemodes). Frances you know what is in secret because I showed you a picture of it the other day. http://puu.sh/jJJa9/60461812b4.png Delta remember when we added mutany into secret, we ended up stuck in the lobby for 20 minutes because there were never two heads who wanted to start at round start. My question is this, how is the voting broken? I have seen every option win the vote at some point in my time here. I have seen every option start. The vote result varies between each round(With an exception for secret but that changes gamemode depending(mostly)) Are you trying to fix the system or the people?
I_speak_money Posted August 26, 2015 Author Posted August 26, 2015 If the vote counts are removed, the general consensus is that people will play with the safe option and hit 'secret' or 'nuke' as those are the two most popular. Okay. What's the solution to that? Make it all secret. Vote counts get removed. Autovote ends. Gamemode selection: classified. You don't actually know what gamemode it is until you see something that gives it away in the round or until the end of the round. If people want a secret inside of a secret, we can change that gamemode name to 'random', as that is what it basically is in its most simplest form. Others have suggested that some people play certain characters during certain gamemodes.The solution to that? As I mentioned before, we can add another tag that gives people a scale to estimate what kind of gamemode it is: action-packed, mediocre action, and little to no action. So if all is said and done, Joe McHonk goes to vote. He particularly likes heist, so he votes for that one. Autovote ends. Gamemode is not listed/classified but is listed as action-packed. He decides he's going to go with Urist McRambo, security officer, for this gamemode because he likes fighting antags. Tada.
Guest Posted August 26, 2015 Posted August 26, 2015 You have not answered my question. My question is this, how is the voting broken? I have seen every option win the vote at some point in my time here. I have seen every option start. The vote result varies between each round(With an exception for secret but that changes gamemode depending(mostly)) Are you trying to fix the system or the people?
I_speak_money Posted August 26, 2015 Author Posted August 26, 2015 You have not answered my question. My question is this, how is the voting broken? I have seen every option win the vote at some point in my time here. I have seen every option start. The vote result varies between each round(With an exception for secret but that changes gamemode depending(mostly)) Are you trying to fix the system or the people? It's not broken in the absolute. It has faults which I addressed in the first post of this thread. Yes, every option does eventually get selected. Key word is eventually. Next time there's a gamemode vote, watch the vote. Click on X gamemode, and repeatedly click your choice over and over again. Do that a few times. You'll see all the phenomena that I described occur over and over again. If my changes were to be implemented, the voting system would be changed dramatically for the better. The vote would be about something a majority of us all agree upon. Rather than having to follow some internal compulsion for a social contract amongst peers, we can choose the gamemode of our heart's content and hope other players feel the same way. Instead of a eh-eh-eh situation, it should be a yes-yes-yes situation.
Guest Posted August 26, 2015 Posted August 26, 2015 I fail to see how your changes would make that happen because what I said will happen. You can't force people to change the way they work. I watch how votes are called and on a few random times logged who votes for what and when. The next option after removing visible votes would be to remove secret because people choose that one too much. Eventually it would come to just forcing secret every round. Every system has faults, it all about what faults you are willing to accept in the system. Your system wouldn't let the majority win. It would let the people who have the most backing it win, witch is not always the majority. Example: 3 people vote Nuke, 5 vote Extended, 7 people voted Cult, and the gamemode is Cult. The majority (8) Wanted either Nuke or Extended. The current system lets people move to a gamemode they would prefer rather than being forced to play a gamemode they didn't want to play. You also have to account for people who will not play at round start or won't play until they know what the roundtype is. I'd like to point you to a few threads. http://aurorastation.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=2006 (http://aurorastation.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=2006&start=10#p19077 My specific reply to the thread) http://aurorastation.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=1288
nanotoxin Posted August 27, 2015 Posted August 27, 2015 Why not make voting for game modes anonymous?
Guest Posted August 27, 2015 Posted August 27, 2015 Already explained in http://aurorastation.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=2006 Specifically this post http://aurorastation.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=2006&start=20
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