Reminder to Sec players

[Guest]

It's during the times when I actually have to coordinate security is when I'm reminded how shit Security is. That is not making judgements about players or their skill, but more in their ability to either make proper judgements themselves or communicate relevant information.

Security is split into different roles for a reason, and it's to provide an extra layer of RP for everyone involved. Simply shubbing a perp into a cell and setting the time as an officer is not enough. Officer needs to search him, Detective to question him, CSI to work the crime scene and Warden should ideally put him into his cell. Instead, we have Detectives playing Officers, Wardens playing Detectives, Cadets and CSIs, who can't even work the cells, playing Wardens. Officers? Well, they usually do whatever and then go SSD, but that's nothing new. It has always been like that.

Why does this annoy me? Because I'm incompetant at playing a Head of Security role and want to push the blame?

No. It's because I literally have to force security to do the basic thing requried for any functional team. What is that one thing you ask? Communication. It's kinda retarded when I have to ask three times to get informed of anything. I mean, it could be just me. People being unwilling to communicate anything to me. How is that my fault, anyway? Well, this is devoling into a rant, but at any rate, just please... follow some basic common sense rules and make some effort to communicate, because, I can't help you if I don't know what's going on. No one can. And you are not doing anyone a favor by being quiet. You can handle it, sure, but please inform your fellow security of what's going on. It's just a single line of text with an :s at the start.

[Guest Menown]

I usually head to cryo when I have to repeat myself constantly. As an officer, I deliver the subject to processing if there's a warden. Then I alert the arrival over the radio and call for a warden. More often than not, minutes after a warden arrives, I hear from somebody else, "Why is so-and-so in a cell?"

Or, when we are dealing with an incident, having to explain to different people constantly what is happening, due to them being in the bar, off snogging their SO, or off doing jack-shit. It gets annoying dealing with people being dick-wits in security, and the rest of the crew, so I usually say fuck it and go to cryo.

[NebulaFlare]

There is a reason why I play an undercover sleeper agent in security. Because I have an excuse not to care about what the heck goes on. If I played an officer that did care, well...I'd have another case of someone going absolutely crazy.

Long gone are the days of Commander Lysanuh Dilgan. I don't know what it is about this department. Engineering, I can let them go off and do their own thing without worrying. Research, everyone does what's needed and asked. Both of them are like a big chummy family.

Security gets both ends of the spectrum. Complete rookie mallcops and war-weathered cigar-biting vets, tossed in with a few gung-ho 'Shoot the tator!' officers. What I think we need is an IC look from perhaps a DO, and a 'retraining' of the sec team, if you will.

[Gollee]

What I think we need is an IC look from perhaps a DO, and a 'retraining' of the sec team, if you will.

 

In progress.

[Guest]

I am not calling out spacific individuals, I'm saying that almost entire security department, over a range of more than dozen rounds last month, has display complete inability to communicate with department members. Be you mallcop prime, grizzled war vet or a space ninja, communication is something everyone needs improvement in. Hell, I've seen Heads of Staff that don't communicate with security, despite being asked several times. Instead they do everything solo, ignoring their job of an adminstrator. However, that most likely stems from necessity, since Security is nearly unmanageable in current state.

[Gollee]

Addition: Serveris and SierraKomodo have been unleashed like enraged Valkries bringing the twin Furies of Paperwork and regulation down on the poorer elements of Security.

[PigVomit]

You're right. Communication is a necessity for the main departments (except for research, which is kind of just there). A vocal security team performs far better than a silent force. Sure, kids still chant "SHITCURITY!" Every chance they get, but at the end of the day SEC gets the job done.

But let's be fair to both sides, here. This problem occurs in all departments. I don't need to cite examples, because fuckwits exist on many games on many servers. You can't change people. On the other hand, you can take action yourself and be an instrument of change. Be the security officer that upholds protocol through even the most hopeless of sec teams. Eventually one becomes two, and two becomes a whole squad of model RPers.

[Guest]

On the other hand, you can take action yourself and be an instrument of change. Be the security officer that upholds protocol through even the most hopeless of sec teams. Eventually one becomes two, and two becomes a whole squad of model RPers.

I try, I really do.

[TechnoKat]

I'm okay with newbies playing security/any other vital role. More shenanigans occure.

[TechnoKat]

Well, there was a really bad cult round earlier. Antags weren't the problem. Something has to be done about newbies going security.

[Dreamix]

blah blah Something has to be done about newbies going security.

Quality over quantity, or something. I would rather want one decent security officer visible on the crew manifest, than three officers, of which two are SSD, warden being "fuck knows" where asleep without even a way to find him to take him to cryo, one CSI that is running around like a retard, that lost his crime kit, a detective that is doing exactly opposite of what he should be doing, not even capable of making a proper sentence in english over comms, and a security cadet that is constantly throwing flashbangs, and refuses to stop.

Really, the only decent officers I recently see already have some sort of whitelist (head or alien). We need to do something about security, preferably a sec-whitelist.

[Alberyk]

We need to do something about security, preferably a sec-whitelist.

 

Not a good idea. We already have age-gates on sec jobs, then, administrative actions are better in this kind of case, I believe.

[TechnoKat]

Well, if we're not going to look at this issue further, every round will be like this,

[PigVomit]

Well, there was a really bad cult round earlier. Antags weren't the problem. Something has to be done about newbies going security.

 

Hmm..I may have been one of the cultists that round. The general experience was: 1) security rushes through the process of gaining IC knowledge; 2) they brig you for possessing "contraband" and "suspicious activity" even after citing religious purposes (which in real life is a non-starter; cases get thrown out based on prejudice like this) and 3) you get implanted just because you refuse to cooperate after interrogation.

I'm sorry but unless you personally witness some sadistic shit like ghosts, energy swords, and gibs, it's METAGAMING to automatically assume something is illegal just because it's "foreign". No one knows what the tomes/runes/scrolls say because they're in an ancient, untranslated language. The soul shards can easily be dismissed as relics or symbols of a faith much like the holy cross. Hell, even blood on the floors is circumstantial at best; the officer has to, again, personally witness the events take place.

The bottom line is we need people who know about basic police procedure to teach folks. Otherwise, many rounds regardless of gamemode will be ruined before they even begin. That's why I stand by my original statement. Be the instrument of that change and lead by example. I feel that's the only way anything will get done.

[TechnoKat]

It all began with three cultistd gibbing a person up entirely and then swords began coming out of thin air, I was the only security officer during it, until more started joining and were like "lol ill release u even tho u had two swords and shit", ended up with themselves self antagging and me arresting shitton of people. You're talking about another cult round, I don't remember partaking.

They also had books and papers on, yes, but I only took that as gang affiliation as all the suspects had the same thing.

edit:: I think I remember the scenario you're talking about, entire security force was just terribad and I didn't want to jump in arresting all of them, otherwise we'd have none left, as well there were no Head of Staff around. I had a fax ready to be sent if IAA or someone else came. I believe it was a warden and another security officer holding you outside his office, yes?

[Dreamix]

It all began with three cultistd gibbing a person up entirely and then swords began coming out of thin air, I was the only security officer during it, until more started joining and were like "lol ill release u even tho u had two swords and shit", ended up with themselves self antagging and me arresting shitton of people. You're talking about another cult round, I don't remember partaking. blah blah

I also took part in this specific round, I joined as a CMO to coordinate medical, as security was (as I thought) well-staffed. But, actually in-game, when that poor guy got gibbed (was later cloned), the only active security officer was Techno's Kaipov, which I would try to help by joining with my security officer, if I only knew that security is SSD.

I will write a answer to Alberyk's post, later.

[PigVomit]

It all began with three cultistd gibbing a person up entirely and then swords began coming out of thin air, I was the only security officer during it, until more started joining and were like "lol ill release u even tho u had two swords and shit", ended up with themselves self antagging and me arresting shitton of people. You're talking about another cult round, I don't remember partaking.

They also had books and papers on, yes, but I only took that as gang affiliation as all the suspects had the same thing.

edit:: I think I remember the scenario you're talking about, entire security force was just terribad and I didn't want to jump in arresting all of them, otherwise we'd have none left, as well there were no Head of Staff around. I had a fax ready to be sent if IAA or someone else came. I believe it was a warden and another security officer holding you outside his office, yes?

 

Oh wow! Yea we're definitely talking about two separate rounds. Like Gestapo vs. Flower Children in terms of sec behavior. If they can meet somewhere in the middle, that'd go a long way in the "making the game enjoyable for others" department. Otherwise, why should cultists hold back at all? Their attempts to roleplay can easily be traded for an energy sword, beat cops into crit, capture their souls and turn them into constructs.

Of course, I tried to be mister nice guy and you saw what happened with that. The other tags didn't have much luck either, converting only one more person the entire time.

[TechnoKat]

It all began with three cultistd gibbing a person up entirely and then swords began coming out of thin air, I was the only security officer during it, until more started joining and were like "lol ill release u even tho u had two swords and shit", ended up with themselves self antagging and me arresting shitton of people. You're talking about another cult round, I don't remember partaking.

They also had books and papers on, yes, but I only took that as gang affiliation as all the suspects had the same thing.

edit:: I think I remember the scenario you're talking about, entire security force was just terribad and I didn't want to jump in arresting all of them, otherwise we'd have none left, as well there were no Head of Staff around. I had a fax ready to be sent if IAA or someone else came. I believe it was a warden and another security officer holding you outside his office, yes?

 

Oh wow! Yea we're definitely talking about two separate rounds. Like Gestapo vs. Flower Children in terms of sec behavior. If they can meet somewhere in the middle, that'd go a long way in the "making the game enjoyable for others" department. Otherwise, why should cultists hold back at all? Their attempts to roleplay can easily be traded for an energy sword, beat cops into crit, capture their souls and turn them into constructs.

Of course, I tried to be mister nice guy and you saw what happened with that. The other tags didn't have much luck either, converting only one more person the entire time.

 

 

edit:: I think I remember the scenario you're talking about, entire security force was just terribad and I didn't want to jump in arresting all of them, otherwise we'd have none left, as well there were no Head of Staff around. I had a fax ready to be sent if IAA or someone else came. I believe it was a warden and another security officer holding you outside his office, yes?

 

stop being passive aggressive.

[Guest]

I'm okay with newbies playing security/any other vital role.

Something has to be done about newbies going security.

Quick to change your mind, there, bud.

For reference, I'm thinking these new players need to be taught how to play Security, something no one has any patience for, these days.

Edit: Added F in front of 'eference'... oops.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Guest

[PigVomit]

Not trying to be passive aggressive..I was agreeing with you lol.

[Dreamix]

As I said, a reply. A rant? May be a little aggressive. Things may be a exaggerated. Long post ahead.

or reference, I'm thinking these new players need to be taught how to play Security, something no one has any patience for, these days.

Sometimes, I wonder how you people want to achieve that. Really, I imagine it's hard to teach someone how to be a good officer, considering that it's sometimes a stressful and pretty important job (in the sense of pushing the round forward), and that you can't just drop everything you were doing to IC-ly cite someone a wiki tutorial. It would be just easier to make a separate server to teach people how to be robust, and stuff. But, that defeats the point. Also, how the hell you need someone to teach you how to play security? I understand, simple stuff like how to unbuckle, you could miss that or just misread how to do it correctly, but stuff like corporate regulations? I personally think (IMHO), if you didn't read the tutorial, you really shouldn't play this role, and potentially ruining someone's round.

Also, what if they simply don't care? What if they just want to robust antags on Aurora, without random assistants outrobusting them? You can't just fire them because they are bad (but didn't done anything terrible, yet), you can't just ahelp it to have a admin talk to them, you can't just ban them (how being IC-ly bad is a bannable offence?).

You say, heads of staff? If something is happening, they are usually busy, if it's boring, they probably have no way to see that someone is terrible, and remembering 43535 characters from previous rounds to school them later, is hard.

Can you even find one player, that would like to spend his time to teach people how to play a role? Almost every round, repeating the same tutorial, literally dying out of boredom? I see no way this could be fun, life is not easy, it wouldn't be a easy and fun five-minute talk with people that actually care, it would be hell. And I fully understand, and I am not surprised, that no one has any patience for this, these days. Why do people want to IC-ly interact within their (as some could say) jerk-circle/metafriendships, IC-ly teaching others how to do stuff, and actually roleplaying with them? Because they have a guarantee that their IC-friend will not just leave, go SSD, run away, or start harm-batonning you because they've got antagged (and I assure you, I am not a member of any of those meta-friendship circle jerks, I am trying to always be, sort of, independent)

 

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things

Not a good idea. We already have age-gates on sec jobs, then, administrative actions are better in this kind of case, I believe

Administrative actions? Let's see

IC, DO actions? DO's can't just investigate XXX bad officer's behaviors. DO's can't just constantly sit on their asses, responding to incident reports. Also, the delay, imagine that the 'bad officer' does not care, it's 1 day before a report is made, +2 days before a DO responds, +7 days before the meeting-thingy time expires. Also, what if the player made another, still bad, character? Do we need to repeat this never-ending circle again?

IC, heads of staff? Usually free to demote, but, during a uneventful round, you don't see bad people actually being bad, as they are usually SSD or not doing anything. During a eventful and chaotic round, heads are usually busy doing stuff.

OOC, banning? Meh, I already said why not, it's obvious.

OOC, age-gates? Meh. Do those age-gates even work, other than being a round-ruiner if MySQL (or whatever, I don't really know) database-thing stops working, disallowing everyone from joining security? Can't you just join once, start the timer, and come back ten days later, free to robust shit?

How about, types of offences?

SSD? What the hell are you going to do? Ban? "i had 2 go, sorry, important whatever" But, something should be done, as SSD's are taking job slots, equipment, and from lobby-er's perspective it may seem that security is overstaffed, but in reality it is a ghost town. Something other than banning, because of obvious reasons.

Wasting flashbangs or other equipment? Does not really warrant OOC action, does not really warrant IC action, as security officers can't just take each other's ID's.

Wrong or unjust detainment or charge? Does not really warrant OOC action. "im just rping a unexprienced cop" May ruin someone's round.

Being a massive pain in the ass, a chucklefuck? That does warrant OOC action, however, it's not something, for what the offender will get anything else than a slap in the wrist, unless the offender is literally a griefer.

Not communicating on the security channel, being someone like this? You can't just ban, you can't just fire someone for not talking over security comms, you can't really do anything other than writing long rants like this one you are reading now or Bokaza's one.

 

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And finally, last but not the least, whitelisting security? I assure you, everyone who already has some sort of whitelist is already at least a decent security player. Let's face it, the ones that are not decent, are here not to roleplay, interact and to create fun for others, but to catch antags (and go SSD if it's secret extended), or because of some other oblivious reasons. And, don't even try to use the "already understaffed security will thin in numbers even more", because I personally would rather see two decent officers, that are not bad, actually communicate over comms in proper english, do not waste equipment, etc etc, than "than three officers, of which two are SSD, warden being "fuck knows" where asleep without even a way to find him to take him to cryo, one CSI that is running around like a retard, that lost his crime kit, a detective that is doing exactly opposite of what he should be doing, not even capable of making a proper sentence in english over comms, and a security cadet that is constantly throwing flashbangs, and refuses to stop.", as said in my earlier post. Also, as it was already said (regarding anything about any whitelist), it's much easier to take away a whitelist, than to ban a player.

Yes, it bothers me a lot. TL;DR: WE CAN DO LITERALLY NOTHING, OR ALMOST OVERKILL IT.

I would love if my badly written, probably terrible grammatically, overly aggressive, oh my god, post actually made someone think "maybe, but maybe we should actually do something about this terrible security situation?".

[Zidanyia]

I'm okay with newbies playing security/any other vital role.

Something has to be done about newbies going security.

Quick to change your mind, there, bud.

or reference, I'm thinking these new players need to be taught how to play Security, something no one has any patience for, these days.

 

There are two types of players here, as I've seen for myself.

1.) People who want to have fun by any means necessary. These people commonly play in civilian positions and engineering.

2.) People who want to realistically/practically roleplay, and make a chore out of their position. These people fall into security/command most of the time.

Bokaza, I think you and a few others fall into the latter. It's not at all surprising that you want to stop the influx of badsec flooding into your department. Nobody wants shitters in their department, ever.

The issue is, it's not always that badsec CAN help it, most of the time they're just rookies and they're attempting to learn for themselves how to be a space cop. They're just here to play, they're not necessarily into the whole complex, in-depth mechanics of the RedTape system. A lot of newsec are from party 1, for that matter. They're just around to have simple fun, and there's nothing wrong with that, imo.

Bureaucracy is like this. Either you love it, or you hate it. Very rarely is there an inbetween, but it can be agreed that most of the time it's a required evil.

Consider the following.

Party 1 will generally have more 'success' in their pursuit of fun, no matter the outcome. They generally do not care about the state of the round as it progresses or is likely to progress towards. They're just in it to partake in the fun, to be a piece of the story. They don't care about 'how much' involvement, they just wanna be part of it in some way.

Party 2 will likely constantly worry about the impact their decisions will make, and stress out over worst case scenarios in their head without recognizing the current situation. They will often tell other people to 'stop what they're doing', but not typically tell why out of impatience, a sense of urgency or just being outright irritated from previous events. These people typically have the most amount of foresight among the rest of the playerbase, and know that their actions and other people's actions will carry weight...

But often, they do not know how much. And because they do not know this, they will likely panic in one way or another, making brash and uncalculated decisions. It seems like, in the end, Party 2 will have a much worse time than Party 1 would if they were both to make a mistake.

Consider the motives (albeit, very carefully) of the other party that you're addressing. Remember why the player is playing the way they do, and remember why you're playing the way you do.

[Guest]

As I said, a reply. A rant? May be a little aggressive. Things may be a exaggerated. Long post ahead.

-snip-

I would love if my badly written, probably terrible grammatically, overly aggressive, oh my god, post actually made someone think "maybe, but maybe we should actually do something about this terrible security situation?".

Breath deeply. Step by step. I'm going to respond both to you and Zidanyia to save text and effort.

-snip-

Consider the motives (albeit, very carefully) of the other party that you're addressing. Remember why the player is playing the way they do, and remember why you're playing the way you do.

Hmm. 90% of RP is done through talking. Communication in its most basic level. More communication, more RP. What does communication allow as well? Teamwork. It does wonders to help enable it. Simply by having the older officers reporting in on what they are doing, will both help organize teamwork and help the quiet newbies learn what they need to do. Teamwork, regardless if the player belongs to the latter or the former, is something generally considered fun. A most boring activity can become fun if done in pairs. So, it would be in the interest of the former group, if they chose to play security, to help enable it.

This is really not a debate about paperwork, or shitsec, or anything else at that matter. The whole point of the OP was a plea that communication is kranked up.

So, yes, Dreamix, start by doing what I just outlined, if you really want to fix sec, as I was mearly pointing out that no one has the patience. So, let's not bother.

[Covert0ddity]

Police in real life go through much more training and experience than I'm sure we expect from players of a 2d spess game. Generally a Bachelors (for some) is required/preferred in any given law enforcement agency. Or, military experience can count for that. And after those are met, a BMT-like police academy is attended for time, and THEN they are eligible for even being interviewed by specific agencies. Now, considering this is a game and most people playing it have little to no experience in the graces of law, we cannot realistically imprint the know-how and experience that some of us seem to want, and expect, from real officers here.

Wwwwe can, however, put more people under the eyes of their peers. If someone's regularly shit, then we impose secban. I'm not sure how it is now, but when I was an admin I was (and other admins) were less inclined to deal out jobbans for whatever reason, being they knew the player they were banning personally or that they felt that banning someone from specific job would be less useful than a general ban or something - I don't really remember.

Alternatively, a very light 3-4 question sec whitelist with someone active handling them so it doesn't take a month for someone to be processed through the works.

[Zidanyia]

As I said, a reply. A rant? May be a little aggressive. Things may be a exaggerated. Long post ahead.

-snip-

I would love if my badly written, probably terrible grammatically, overly aggressive, oh my god, post actually made someone think "maybe, but maybe we should actually do something about this terrible security situation?".

Breath deeply. Step by step. I'm going to respond both to you and Zidanyia to save text and effort.

-snip-

Consider the motives (albeit, very carefully) of the other party that you're addressing. Remember why the player is playing the way they do, and remember why you're playing the way you do.

Hmm. 90% of RP is done through talking. Communication in its most basic level. More communication, more RP. What does communication allow as well? Teamwork. It does wonders to help enable it. Simply by having the older officers reporting in on what they are doing, will both help organize teamwork and help the quiet newbies learn what they need to do. Teamwork, regardless if the player belongs to the latter or the former, is something generally considered fun. A most boring activity can become fun if done in pairs. So, it would be in the interest of the former group, if they chose to play security, to help enable it.

This is really not a debate about paperwork, or shitsec, or anything else at that matter. The whole point of the OP was a plea that communication is kranked up.

So, yes, Dreamix, start by doing what I just outlined, if you really want to fix sec, as I was mearly pointing out that no one has the patience. So, let's not bother.

 

I see 'mediocre sec' more than I see badsec here at Aurora, but uh, on the 'plea for communication'.

You really can't fault people for not communicating. In the heat of the situation, a lot of people are too engrossed in the 'now' of it to consider communicating.

You're honestly setting forth an awkward expectation for officers to be very specific about their situation and location when they're already RPing with somebody else and dealing with conflict.

It's something you need to train people to remember. They need to learn how to communicate when things are getting nuts rather than tackling the problem by themselves.

Up to you lot as whitelistees to set an example and teach, aye?