Staff Complaint - Serveris6

[Dumplinz]

The mutiny charge as said earlier is moot, I didn't get to charge Jun, because I was supposed to interview her afterwards but couldn't because I had to deal with PMs, additionally arresting a superior can easily be reasoned to be mutiny, you can disagree in the call, but the reasoning isn't off the mark.

Jun wasn't supposed to be charged with anything, and came out violently, I was even trying to negotiate more before dealing with you. The warning is entirely wrong because your interpretation of the mutiny charge isn't based on any of the words it says on the wiki. Tabling someone was assault, yes, there shouldn't be confusing there, but the radio communication that I reference and you ignore is where the mutiny charge comes from. Beyond literally using the phrase remove from power, Arresting a person who is your direct superior and has no captain above him is directly eliminating the chain of command (even more because my radio was taken) effectively ending leadership within security. This is mutiny, the fulfills half of the sentence when it only needs to have one part in the description of Mutiny.

You being biased was coming from your lack of evidence, witholding discussion with the accusers, and ridiculous majority rules about a mutiny interpretation when is clear that almost all the charges on the wiki are left vague and for the HoS to decide on.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

The mutiny charge as said earlier is moot, I didn't get to charge Jun, because I was supposed to interview her afterwards but couldn't because I had to deal with PMs, additionally arresting a superior can easily be reasoned to be mutiny, you can disagree in the call, but the reasoning isn't off the mark.

Jun wasn't supposed to be charged with anything, and came out violently, I was even trying to negotiate more before dealing with you. The warning is entirely wrong because your interpretation of the mutiny charge isn't based on any of the words it says on the wiki. Tabling someone was assault, yes, there shouldn't be confusing there, but the radio communication that I reference and you ignore is where the mutiny charge comes from. Beyond literally using the phrase remove from power, Arresting a person who is your direct superior and has no captain above him is directly eliminating the chain of command (even more because my radio was taken) effectively ending leadership within security. This is mutiny, the fulfills half of the sentence when it only needs to have one part in the description of Mutiny.

You being biased was coming from your lack of evidence, witholding discussion with the accusers, and ridiculous majority rules about a mutiny interpretation when is clear that almost all the charges on the wiki are left vague and for the HoS to decide on.

 

Mutiny - To openly rebel against or attempt to remove command staff with violent intent. - See "Sedition" for less violent mutineers.

Sedition - To incite rebellion, or rally against the established chain of command. - This includes attempting to make separate areas of the ship into "Nations" or generally conspiring against the chain of command.

If she attempted to kill you or otherwise incapacitate you with violence (tabling someone is different from using harm baton on their skull repeatedly) then it would be mutiny, but she didn't.

[Skull132]

I'm kind of with Eliot's last reply here. Because Jun wasn't actually charged with mutiny, instead with assaulting a head of staff (which grabbing and tabling a head of staff in a clear attempt to arrest/overpower him is), and disobeying of orders, I don't think Dumplinz should be in immediate trouble. But there are a few issues that I would align with getting used to the bigger set of trousers that you have as a HoS, that have become apparent as we go through this complaint.

I will also clarify. Mutiny is, word for word, "To openly rebel against or attempt to remove command staff with violent intent." It is actually a very clear directive, as are all regulations. They are all written in a manner that is not open to interpretation, as having them open to interpretation would cause a heap of issues. As such, in order to convict someone of mutiny, you must be able to prove that their end goal, with your arrest, was to remove the command staff from power and subjugate their own rule over the station. Since this was just an attempted arrest of a head of staff, wrongful though it may be, exceeding official powers with a side-order of sedition would be applicable.

Going over the logs, I'm not really sure why most of the conversation started hinging on whether or not mutiny was applicable...?

[Eliot Clef]

The mutiny charge as said earlier is moot, I didn't get to charge Jun, because I was supposed to interview her afterwards but couldn't because I had to deal with PMs, additionally arresting a superior can easily be reasoned to be mutiny, you can disagree in the call, but the reasoning isn't off the mark.

Jun wasn't supposed to be charged with anything, and came out violently, I was even trying to negotiate more before dealing with you. The warning is entirely wrong because your interpretation of the mutiny charge isn't based on any of the words it says on the wiki. Tabling someone was assault, yes, there shouldn't be confusing there, but the radio communication that I reference and you ignore is where the mutiny charge comes from. Beyond literally using the phrase remove from power, Arresting a person who is your direct superior and has no captain above him is directly eliminating the chain of command (even more because my radio was taken) effectively ending leadership within security. This is mutiny, the fulfills half of the sentence when it only needs to have one part in the description of Mutiny.

You being biased was coming from your lack of evidence, witholding discussion with the accusers, and ridiculous majority rules about a mutiny interpretation when is clear that almost all the charges on the wiki are left vague and for the HoS to decide on.

 

The Assault charge requires some damage to have occurred. To the best of my knowledge in this situation, Jun just pushed you down and tabled you. Assaulting a Head of Staff, which is a potential additional interpretation, also requires damage to have occurred. For that matter, even Minor Assault requires damage to have occurred. Pushing and tabling you is Battery, not Assault. So our first and most basic charge in this conflict is Battery.

You were cuffed and detained, because Jun believed you were incompetent for duty. This was extremely pre-emptive, but was a belief of myself and Centurion (CakeIsOssim) at the time, as well as the CMO (whose identity I forget). We were trying to go through official channels and do some investigation when the Jun incident was ongoing.

At the time, I recall the Warden stating that Jun was being held under Kidnapping / Hostage Taking, which is not correct because Jun was wholly cooperative with Security in dealing with you. She made no demands, and for all practical purposes was making an arrest of what she believed to be a negligent employee. (Actually this is Exceeding Official Powers because she was a Detective at the time and shouldn't be making non-emergency arrests at all, but that's beside the point here.)

In total, my personal opinion of where her charges should be are: Battery (5-8), Illegal Detainment (15, Demotion), Exceeding Official Powers (15-30, Demotion). In total you could have brigged her for 35-88 minutes and demoted her without really being in too much question, the thing that strikes me as off is the apparent intent (maybe not on your part, it could've just been the Warden) to keep her in solitary. Sedition and Neglect of Duty also probably wouldn't have been inappropriate, though superfluous. Maybe petty theft if you want to push the radio thing. TL;DR, you had plenty of ways to get Jun out of your hair.

Mutiny is an inappropriate and abusive charge for circumstances like this, where removing an arguably negligent Head of Security was the goal rather than any sort of violent revolt. You're a Head, not The Law, and the regulation (as Jackboot and Skull132 enumerated in their posts) is explicit about what constitutes Mutiny. What occurred did not, unless there was more violent action taken, constitute mutiny.

Jackboot / Jawdat didn't end up demoting you (as noted above), it's true, but it had a lot to do with everyone trying to get you handled through official channels leaving the round. There wasn't anybody left to speak against you in that meeting.

 

Because Jun wasn't actually charged with mutiny, instead with assaulting a head of staff (which grabbing and tabling a head of staff in a clear attempt to arrest/overpower him is), and disobeying of orders, I don't think Dumplinz should be in immediate trouble.

 

Just so I understand correctly: Assault on a Head of Staff is written so it is considered to be the Assault charge (significant injury) on a Head of Staff. Assault (and even Minor Assault) assumes damage to be incurred. Ordinarily pushing and tabling would only really be battery.

Does this mean that Battery against a Head of Staff constitutes Assault on a Head of Staff regardless of injury?

EDIT: I'm editing this post to take out some redundancy. I wrote some of it intermittently while being hassled in person.

Edited January 14, 2016 by Guest

[Skull132]

Because Jun wasn't actually charged with mutiny, instead with assaulting a head of staff (which grabbing and tabling a head of staff in a clear attempt to arrest/overpower him is), and disobeying of orders, I don't think Dumplinz should be in immediate trouble.

 

Just so I understand correctly: Assault on a Head of Staff is written so it is considered to be the Assault charge (significant injury) on a Head of Staff. Assault (and even Minor Assault) assumes damage to be incurred. Ordinarily pushing and tabling would only really be battery.

Does this mean that Battery against a Head of Staff constitutes Assault on a Head of Staff regardless of injury?

 

It's intent to overpower and disable in this case, though. Clearly so. Battery is just unwanted physical contact.

[Eliot Clef]

Because Jun wasn't actually charged with mutiny, instead with assaulting a head of staff (which grabbing and tabling a head of staff in a clear attempt to arrest/overpower him is), and disobeying of orders, I don't think Dumplinz should be in immediate trouble.

 

Just so I understand correctly: Assault on a Head of Staff is written so it is considered to be the Assault charge (significant injury) on a Head of Staff. Assault (and even Minor Assault) assumes damage to be incurred. Ordinarily pushing and tabling would only really be battery.

Does this mean that Battery against a Head of Staff constitutes Assault on a Head of Staff regardless of injury?

 

It's intent to overpower and disable in this case, though. Clearly so. Battery is just unwanted physical contact.

 

Hmm. That's true, but wouldn't that still only be Minor Assault? (Admittedly, taking his radio away muddies the waters a lot with regards to perceived intent, here...)

[Gollee]

Illegal detention?

[Skull132]

Hmm. That's true, but wouldn't that still only be Minor Assault? (Admittedly, taking his radio away muddies the waters a lot with regards to perceived intent, here...)

 

Yah, the issue is, intent was very clearly illegal detention. Which is kidnapping. Which usually comes with assault, and not minor assault. Though it would have been clearer if an actual weapon were used, like a baton.

[SierraKomodo]

I think we're getting a bit off topic here. The nuances/specifics of the regulations aren't what's in question in this complaint (Although I do agree some clarification might be warranted, another thread might be best for this discussion); It's the warning issued by Serveris and whether or not this warning is valid.

[Eliot Clef]

Illegal detention?

 

Apologies, I'm not disputing the other charges listed, I'm trying to get clarification on specific charges involved.

 

Yah, the issue is, intent was very clearly illegal detention. Which is kidnapping. Which usually comes with assault, and not minor assault. Though it would have been clearer if an actual weapon were used, like a baton.

 

Hokay. Thanks for the clarification.

 

I think we're getting a bit off topic here. The nuances/specifics of the regulations aren't what's in question in this complaint (Although I do agree some clarification might be warranted, another thread might be best for this discussion); It's the warning issued by Serveris and whether or not this warning is valid.

 

Yeah, sorry 'bout that. I'll make a separate thread for this when I get home.

[Dumplinz]

The Mutiny charge was the Crux of the Moderators argument to charge me with a warning because of Jun staying there for 30-40 minutes (in solitary). Which as repeatedly said, wasn't even charged with mutiny, but without accusing me of charging Jun with Mutiny, the Warning loses it's weight.

This is Clearly If nothing else, A clarify issue "This is the way we the staff want this to be interpreted" There wasn't a Motive of power hungry or anything similarly ridiculous. Easily seen From me trying to interview and resolve the Incident Peacefully, twice. I could have just waited for Jun to come into the Brig with the weapon, But I called her into the HoS office to avoid this completely.

But because people complained about things not even relating to me

- Didn't Authorize the Detective arrest of whomever

- Didn't Demand Authorization of the Science Weapon, Simply Asked If what they were doing was okay without an RD

- Didn't Charge Jun with Mutiny

Makes this Warning incredibly Unjust. Disallowing the recharging of the weapon was RP Simple, Cause and Reaction, Which doesn't inhibit the story of the game, but expands upon it. The words the Science department was saying was definitely disrespectful, and an RD wouldn't have allowed it, but they didn't have an RD so it was allowed. This issue with science is an RP Issue, No Rules were broken here, No authorization through the HoS were Required, the only thing you could mention is me saying " Hey, Don't become a problem with the Freeze gun, Or it becomes a Security issue. Completely Reasonable

[Tenenza]

This complaint has been inactive for over a month.

As a result, I'll bump it, and if it still remains inactive for several days, then it will be archived.