Enslavement Implant

[Jboy2000000]

The issue I have is that I don't see a traitor or antagonist with access to this to use it in a way that will be enjoyable for the character they enslave unless they were already willing to be an antagonist and now have their ticket to be one.

 

This point has already been raised and dismissed, to repeat: There are already two antags with involuntary conversion powers. Clearly only having to do the things you want to do as a player, is not a design goal here. The enslavement implant does not change that fact, or introduce any new problems. This argument is imo completely invalid.

 

Except no it's not invalid. There are two antags that have involuntary conversion, why is that a reason to say that there must be a third? Explain to me at least one way where adding another antag to the game who can force people who don't even like being an antag will add the overall enjoyment and roleplay environment of Aurora.

 

I kind of disagree with the mindset "if you don't like it, then leave/quit/abandon the round". If your solution to people who don't desire to be some traitor's murder slave or whatever they end up using them for is to leave and have their entire round ruined or forfeit, then I feel there's an issue.

 

This is also exactly how I feel. Traitors, the antags you're suggesting become just as powerful as supernatural, Eldrich beings with the ability to have complete and udder control and power over people, without being as rare as the antags in question. Cultists and vampires happen how many times in a day? Now, how often does a round have traitors in it, and how many? Vampres are one person, Cultists are part of the same group, Traitors are clusterfucks of whatever the fuck they want. Instead of having two antags that forcibly recruit people on the rare occasion they exist in the game, you're going to have people who force people to do things against their will ICly and OOCly almost every single round. Now, how much fun does that sound?

[Lucychan42]

The issue I have is that I don't see a traitor or antagonist with access to this to use it in a way that will be enjoyable for the character they enslave unless they were already willing to be an antagonist and now have their ticket to be one.

 

This point has already been raised and dismissed, to repeat: There are already two antags with involuntary conversion powers. Clearly only having to do the things you want to do as a player, is not a design goal here. The enslavement implant does not change that fact, or introduce any new problems. This argument is imo completely invalid.

 

Jboy brought up part of my point: we don't need a third antagonist with mind control powers. And to expand on that, we don't need a traitor with mind control powers. Cultists and Vampires have the chance to have an interesting goal in mind that doesn't involve killing. Generally, I haven't seen a traitor that doesn't at least take hostages let alone set off bombs with the intent of causing harm. A traitor inherently always escalates to some level of mass damage or individual killing as a result of their nature. We don't need to give them the ability to make thralls who will exist to aid them in this mission.

The reason it's been brought up and dismissed so many times is because the dismissal is exactly what you said. "Well, two other people have it so why can't the traitor? Your point is 'completely invalid." My issue is that two antagonists with mind control is enough, and traitors are exceptionally common antagonists, and they're very simple in their goals. Traitors kill, they steal, they mess up the station in some way. My belief is that there shouldn't be potential for a player to be forced into doing those things through an implant. If you /really/ need that extra hand then get creative. Plant a bomb, threaten to detonate it if they try to leave a certain area and demand they do something for you or things go boom. Traitors are so common that if they're given a mind control implant that they can buy then it would get a bit silly of being able to ruin someone's round.

And you may argue "well then I can just kill them" or "if they're not useful to me then I'll slaughter them" well then do your thing, if that's the only way you know how to play traitor then that's your own choice and experience. I don't think that's a fair argument to say "if I can't enslave then I'll kill them" but I doubt there's much to be argued about that.

Edit: I would much rather have the choice of "okay I'll do what you say don't kill me" and "screw you, just try and shoot me I'm wearing adamantium". It at least gives me a decision over what happens. An implant is just "yeah you're mine now, have fun." Not too exciting and kind of unfortunate.

[Kaed]

The way i see it, if the antag commands you to do something that's not usually your job, you just fuck it up really badly, because your character shouldn't know how to do it. If he tells a security officer to make chloral hydrate, he can expect a beakerful of random elements. If he tells a chemist to attack someone, he can expect to lose a servant pretty quickly. And if he tells a cargo tech to sabotage the engine, it'll probably end up doubling in power output

 

Oh, definitely. That's why you don't enslave a security guard to set up the supermatter. Dumb idea.

 

Jboy brought up part of my point: we don't need a third antagonist with mind control powers. And to expand on that, we don't need a traitor with mind control powers. Cultists and Vampires have the chance to have an interesting goal in mind that doesn't involve killing. Generally, I haven't seen a traitor that doesn't at least take hostages let alone set off bombs with the intent of causing harm. A traitor inherently always escalates to some level of mass damage or individual killing as a result of their nature. We don't need to give them the ability to make thralls who will exist to aid them in this mission.

The reason it's been brought up and dismissed so many times is because the dismissal is exactly what you said. "Well, two other people have it so why can't the traitor? Your point is 'completely invalid." My issue is that two antagonists with mind control is enough, and traitors are exceptionally common antagonists, and they're very simple in their goals. Traitors kill, they steal, they mess up the station in some way. My belief is that there shouldn't be potential for a player to be forced into doing those things through an implant. If you /really/ need that extra hand then get creative. Plant a bomb, threaten to detonate it if they try to leave a certain area and demand they do something for you or things go boom. Traitors are so common that if they're given a mind control implant that they can buy then it would get a bit silly of being able to ruin someone's round.

And you may argue "well then I can just kill them" or "if they're not useful to me then I'll slaughter them" well then do your thing, if that's the only way you know how to play traitor then that's your own choice and experience. I don't think that's a fair argument to say "if I can't enslave then I'll kill them" but I doubt there's much to be argued about that.

Edit: I would much rather have the choice of "okay I'll do what you say don't kill me" and "screw you, just try and shoot me I'm wearing adamantium". It at least gives me a decision over what happens. An implant is just "yeah you're mine now, have fun." Not too exciting and kind of unfortunate.

 

This argument is rife with subjective conjecture, and additionally, I see traitors in rounds far less often than I see heists, changlings, or wizards. Autotraitor is, at the current time, basically broken, unless they've recently fixed it. You are also pigeonholing and entire class of antagonist into doing the sort of things you expect them to do. I can tell you myself that I very, very rarely go on murder sprees or bomb things as ANY antag, much less traitor, where there are many exciting tools to choose from. I don't find doing those things to be fun, and derive much more enjoyment out of the conflict between two characters with uneven levels of power over the other, whether it be kidnapping, or forcing them to your will.

I don't think there's any reason why enslavement implants shouldn't be a thing, and I categorically dismiss the whole 'but players shouldn't have to be part of things they don't want' arguement. That is against the purpose of a roleplay server that is intended to include antagonists. Even skull, the person who hosts the damn server, agrees with this. You can't play on this server and expect to have a special safety comfort bubble, unless it is extended. And extended rounds happen frequently enough that there is an opportunity for everyone to have fun. Don't ruin the fun of other people because of misguided moralizing about social correctness and comfort boundaries.

The very fact that there is an argument here indicates that there is an audience for this kind of feature. Inclusion is for the people who want it. The people who don't want it isn't why it's being suggested as a feature to the game. It doesn't unbalance the game or provide an unfair advantage that was previously not there in other places, it's more conductive to roleplay than a bomb or gun. The crux of the arguments against it can be summed up as 'I don't like it'. That's not an argument, it's an opinion that goes against the philosophy of the server's goal to provide high roleplay including antagonistic scenarios. I don't like YOUR argument that traitors 'should be planting a bomb and holding the station hostage if they want help'. It seems a little hypocritical to suggest antags shouldn't force things on other players, then turn around and tell everyone what the same antags should be doing in a round.

Edited April 2, 2016 by Guest

[Kaed]

Re-bumping this since it's fallen away.

[Nanako]

And to expand on that, we don't need a traitor with mind control powers. Cultists and Vampires have the chance to have an interesting goal in mind that doesn't involve killing.

 

So why shouldn't traitors have that chance too?

Because you know what their alternative is right ? Killing. Taking people out of the round for a while, getting them cloned, causing metagrudges and much saltiness.

Getting enslaved by an antag is at least more interesting than getting murdered, and it also gives the antag a chance to not escalate things into a confrontation against security armed with fancy weaponry.

 

Generally, I haven't seen a traitor that doesn't at least take hostages let alone set off bombs with the intent of causing harm.

i rarely see them take hostages, i almost always see them bombing things. they do what they can

 

A traitor inherently always escalates to some level of mass damage or individual killing as a result of their nature. We don't need to give them the ability to make thralls who will exist to aid them in this mission.

 

their nature in this case being: a lone operative who can't easily handle a rebellious hostage that siezes weapons. Hostage taking is far more common with raider gangs because they have a group of armed people to fight uprisings.

Giving the traitors enslavement options would provide more nonlethal options for dealing with people.

 

Traitors kill, they steal, they mess up the station in some way. My belief is that there shouldn't be potential for a player to be forced into doing those things through an implant.

But that's a silly belief because there's already potential for players to be forced into those things through completely undetectable non-implant methods. why are you choosing the weaker version to suddenly protest against

If you /really/ need that extra hand then get creative. Plant a bomb, threaten to detonate it if they try to leave a certain area and demand they do something for you or things go boom.

Gameplay wise this isn't a big deal. blowing something up makes engineering's day more interesting, they'll be practically begging you to go ahead with it.

Traitors are so common that if they're given a mind control implant that they can buy then it would get a bit silly of being able to ruin someone's round.

The most common gamemode is secret. traitors are twice as common as other antags due to the options we have available, but there are a million ways to 'ruin someone's round' that don't involve conversion

 

And you may argue "well then I can just kill them" or "if they're not useful to me then I'll slaughter them" well then do your thing, if that's the only way you know how to play traitor then that's your own choice and experience.

Control over your environment is kind of a necessity to do something effective. mind control is a nonlethal alternative

 

Edit: I would much rather have the choice of "okay I'll do what you say don't kill me" and "screw you, just try and shoot me I'm wearing adamantium". It at least gives me a decision over what happens. An implant is just "yeah you're mine now, have fun." Not too exciting and kind of unfortunate.

Implanters work like injections, in that they take several seconds to happen, and the victim can interrupt them by moving. hitting the guy with the implanter can probably also work. At least it can be very easy to out-robust him while he's trying to do that.

Unless you're afk, which is kinda against the rules, the only way someone can really implant you is if you're willing or unconscious. which either means you agree to the implant, or you're beaten and they choose implanting over killing.

[DatBerry]

Why dont we just add an option in character creation about implants?

Checking exploitable info would show "reports about Chemist McChloride's genes/nerve system/hormones have a high chance of accepting a mind slave implant"

[Kaed]

Why dont we just add an option in character creation about implants?

Checking exploitable info would show "reports about Chemist McChloride's genes/nerve system/hormones have a high chance of accepting a mind slave implant"

 

Not a bad idea, but most people never bother to fill out antagonist information in the first place. It would only be as useful as the people who realize it's there or care enough to use it.

[Nanako]

Why dont we just add an option in character creation about implants?

Checking exploitable info would show "reports about Chemist McChloride's genes/nerve system/hormones have a high chance of accepting a mind slave implant"

 

no, this is stupid.

The idea does nothing vampires can't already do with thralls, there's no need or point in kneecapping it or compromising

[Guest]

The idea does nothing vampires can't already do with thralls

 

Meme magic is real.

[DatBerry]

Not a bad idea, but most people never bother to fill out antagonist information in the first place. It would only be as useful as the people who realize it's there or care enough to use it.

 

We could have it check antag options instead, maybe add it to other antag that convert