Jboy2000000

[Guest]

BYOND Key: OneOneThreeEight

Staff BYOND Key: Jboy2000000

Reason for complaint: Giving me a warning for calling LordRaven's warden in a character complaint an "ignorant peon", being illiterate

Evidence/logs/etc: http://forums.aurorastation.org/viewtopic.php?f=35&p=58377#p58377

Additional remarks: Stop giving me arbitrary warnings, and stop deleting my utterly harmless posts because I happen to offend the precious sensitive sensibilities of other forum users who cannot read and always take anything and everything against them as grevious personal attacks. I did NOT call LordRaven a peon. I called their character, not LORD RAVEN, I repeat, an ignorant peon as their character was ignoring my character's roleplay status as a head of staff. I want Jboy to be held fully accountable and warned for this, this is a flagrant abuse of their power and this has been going on for awhile now, and they're threatening me with a forum ban. I want my warning wiped for this as well. How can someone be so unreasonable? Does context mean nothing to you, Jboy? Do you only choose to interpret posts in your way rather than actually asking what I meant before giving me a warning?

As a good man once said, this is like playing the fucking telephone game but the person on the other end is a liberal and hard of hearing.

[Jboy2000000]

Like what was said in the warning pictured above, Delta did use personal attacks against someone they were complaining against, and this type of behavior isn't anything new for him. I was simply the one to make the warning because everyone else was busy or otherwise unable to, but the entirety of the forum moderators (minus Cake) did talk among ourselves about the issue. You can ask Garn, Spoon, or any other forum mod. The thing about "next we go talk to an admin" wasn't even my idea, that was me passing was discussed as a group.

[SierraKomodo]

For reference, this was the forum post in question:

 

1. Your arrest was ordered by Captain Uriel Evans, For malpractice,assault, and neglect of duty.

2. You, had finished cauterizing all wounds and open incisions on his body, that is when I chose to enter.

3. Brig Wardens are not "Citizens" Outside of the brig, They have the authority to arrest people under the orders of the Captain of the Station.

4. The Force gloves were given to all security at the time, By a Scientist.

5. I stayed at a 4 tile distance with only pepperspray asking you to lay on the ground, You then bum rush me injected me and another officer with Chloyral Hydrate, Mixed with Soporific, causing toxin damage to both of us, That is not RP that is abuse of your hypnospray.

6. Code blue allows us to keep our weapons unholstered, And search areas without warrants, It was officially a code red declared by the HoS the cards could not be swiped though, He announced this through a priority announcement from the bridge console.

 

1. Neither you nor the captain informed me of my charges until after you illicitly entered my department and disobeyed a direct order to leave. Failure to communicate, no warrant was filed. The captain didn't say a fucking word to me, nor over comms.

2. No, I didn't. You bust in as I was trying to fix organs and the man's bones because the anesthetic was either neglectfully or purposefully disabled by another surgeon. It was not my fault that they were disabled.

3. You're a brig warden. Not an officer. You have no right to act like a security officer. Security officers exist to act like security officers.

4. You were illegally given those force gloves, as the RD from the round had testified. That means you were in possession of contraband as well as misappropriating contraband.

5. I walked towards you, injected you, so that I could finish my surgery. I did not finalize the cauterize step until several seconds after I gave you chloral. You were threatening me and I wasn't going to have a warden overstep their authority in my department and attempt to boss me around and punish me for a thing I was not even at fault for. You were an ignorant peon misinterpreting the situation and I had you neutralized so I could do my job in helping someone who needed more attention than you did. In regards to the chem mix, you're either doubly ignorant or a liar. I filled my hypospray to maximum capacity with chloral. I gave you 5. I gave the wizard 5 to disable them. I gave Calhoun 5 to disable him when he was chasing after me as well. I use the tools at my disposal to my advantage. It is no different from security officers using pepperspray on people with sunglasses.

6. No, it's code red when it's code red. He didn't tell any of the head of staffs it was code red. You need to swipe red to make it code red, buddy. You don't get automatic all-encompassing department-intruding authority unless it is, officially, code red. Because you say something is so, does not make it so. The head of security had me to talk to and ask me to actually swipe for red. I would've done it if he had asked. He did not. Failure to communicate.

By the information you've told me, it looks like an uncomfortable fraction of security was shit. Especially on point one and point five. You wanna lecture me on proper escalation? Check yourself first.

[Guest]

Like what was said in the warning pictured above, Delta did use personal attacks against someone they were complaining against, and this type of behavior isn't anything new for him. I was simply the one to make the warning because everyone else was busy or otherwise unable to, but the entirety of the forum moderators (minus Cake) did talk among ourselves about the issue. You can ask Garn, Spoon, or any other forum mod. The thing about "next we go talk to an admin" wasn't even my idea, that was me passing was discussed as a group.

 

Then the lot of you were all blatantly misinterpreting my post and are now actively seeking ways to have me forumbanned. I was attacking the character, not the person in the post. I called their conduct shit, not them.

I don't care who said what where and how, they are twisting my words and it is wrong.

I was intentionally harsh on the last note with "check yourself", because the target of the complaint had made points in their cases that were blatant lies. Is it offensive and against the rules to point out other users are being dishonest? He took the characteristically dishonest way out and went for the "I am offended by your accusations that I am being dishonest so I will call the admins on you to sort you" cop-out. It is gross and you people should not pander to that.

You are better than that.

[Redfield5]

This is the stupidest staff complaint that I have gazed upon. Really; we get up in arms over 'ignorant peon?' Look, it isn't even that bad of a word, and I assure you that our staff has taken insults much more charged than these.

[Serveris]

I personally feel like Jboy was kind of grasping at straws concerning this warning reason. There've definitely been things deserving of forum moderator action, but I'm having trouble really justifying the means to this. Yes, he (Delta) could've worded it more eloquently, but I fail to see this as a 'personal attack' worthy of issuing a warning over. At worst, edit the two words out of the entire post and move on with your day.

[Skull132]

I don't think that 2 words in a post otherwise well enough constructed and on point is enough to warrant a warning for breaking rule 1 and should ever constitute as a personal attack. We have not forced people to be 110% uptight about their conduct, either here or in-game, and I don't think we've started yet?

And yes, I did actually read the entire post that was reported, however, while noticeably charged, it's not something I would consider a personal attack. It does not slander Raven, and, as I said, is relatively on topic. What I'd actually take more issue with are the call-outs for Raven being a liar, or the overall crassness of the post. However, there have been many-a-complaints that start out or devolve to that. (Thanks to the magic of Garn and a few others, though, usually hugs and kisses are had at the end.) And I don't think we've issued warnings for similar posts? Or if we've done so, then inconsistently?

Unless any forum mod/server admin can correct me on this, or provide me with further context.

[SierraKomodo]

I don't think that 2 words in a post otherwise well enough constructed and on point is enough to warrant a warning for breaking rule 1 and should ever constitute as a personal attack. We have not forced people to be 110% uptight about their conduct, either here or in-game, and I don't think we've started yet?

And yes, I did actually read the entire post that was reported, however, while noticeably charged, it's not something I would consider a personal attack. It does not slander Raven, and, as I said, is relatively on topic. What I'd actually take more issue with are the call-outs for Raven being a liar, or the overall crassness of the post. However, there have been many-a-complaints that start out or devolve to that. (Thanks to the magic of Garn and a few others, though, usually hugs and kisses are had at the end.) And I don't think we've issued warnings for similar posts? Or if we've done so, then inconsistently?

Unless any forum mod/server admin can correct me on this, or provide me with further context.

 

There was some brief discussion on the post in the discord channel before anything was actually taken; One of the reasons this post got a warning is because of the past history of recent notes/forum warnings Delta already has. If you check his forum notes, you'll notice two prior warnings and 3 notes about PMs forum mods have sent him regarding. I personally use a specific strike-based system with forum moderating - You get 2-3 PM reminders/warnings that aren't actual forum warnings, then 2-3 official forum warnings, then I take things to an admin if there's been a consistent issue beyond that; I did mention that in the discord discussion and I think that influenced the post receiving a warning.

On the other hand Jboy does also use the forum warning system in place of sending forum PMs for first, second, third, etc offenses. If admins okay it, I can post a screenshot of the note/warnings log for reference. I can say that most of the notes are in regards to getting off topic in the complaints section, and personal attacks. Out of this there are 3 PM notes from myself and 3 forum warnings, including this one, from Jboy.

[Guest]

Sure, I'm willing to put myself out there.

 

 

Here is the first one for "ad hominem". Remember the time where Sue spent a custom event moping in the bathroom and then finally pulling the trigger on their sorrowful self? I do.

http://forums.aurorastation.org/viewtopic.php?f=35&p=53117#p53117

Me pointing out how cancerous and stupid the romanceRP crusade was, apparently warranted the Furry Freedom Force manifested in the forum moderation team to personally take offense to this and give me the first warning in awhile. It's really too bad that you people completely invalidate otherwise well-constructed posts that are otherwise intended to take apart player behavior and actions and then consider it a vicious assault on their character. Might I also note, Jboy took something I said extremely out of context, mentioned here:

 

You even said started spreading salt in OOC that if people were going to be autistic idiots that you weren't even going to try to keep your event going.

 

I did my absolute best to not call them a liar but that was exactly what it was.

Now, point two. This is a good one.

 

 

Jboy has literally decreed that the forums are not the place to criticize or insult the quality of characters or the RP quality therein of those characters. I'm sorry, do you want to call someone's character a self-insert Mary Sue in which every action done against the character either in IC or OOC also counts as an attack on the player? You can't do that with Sierra and Jboy protecting everyone's feelings from those who are legitimately trying to foster a fun and heavy RP gameplay environment. This is the kinda stuff you would see on Polaris, not Aurora. Aurora has never been a hugbox, and I doubt Skull wants to start. Ever.

http://forums.aurorastation.org/viewtopic.php?f=92&p=54101#p54101

I can't say I'm necessarily proud or ashamed of the above post, but at the time the_furry was on a shitpost spree and he needed to be convinced and told to stop. He has now and he's a lot more chill because of it.

The community and everyone in it has thicker skin than you might believe. There exists a fair deal of people that don't actually care about the insults and only care about stacking up sufficient enough excuses to remove their ideological opponents that might disagree with them. They do a really awful job of acting like they're terribly insulted, but nonetheless Sierra and Jboy both fall for it. An actual post you could warn me for is if my points only existed to degrade and insult a person without any citations as to why that person is terrible, or if I simply constructed a fair number of pointless shitposts intended to rile up the community.

I don't think I've done that yet, given I have yet to come up with an actual logical reason to do so. I always have a point with my serious posts. I almost always try to use logical citations as evidence for the claims I make.

So, I suggest a few things get done.

1.) My warnings fully get wiped.

2.) Jboy is told to retire or take a break from being a forum mod.

3.) The remaining forum mods stop enforcing the forum rules as if it were to perpetuate a hugbox with no discourse or disagreements, ever.

4.) The Aurora community gets told to man up, deal with it, and grow some thicker skin.

5.) ???????

6.) Profit.

[Jboy2000000]

The warning on the Taja Sexuality Flip post was because of this: It was not about Furry. It was not about the "Romance Crusade." it was not about what you think is or isn't right or good, and like I said, it wasn't the place for you to call out someone and insult them. No where on the forum is for insulting people.

 

Just don't take them seriously, they've never had anything useful to say

Apparently nothing of depth can be said here without it going over your head.

The fact that I have to dumb down it down for you is what’s disappointing.

 

What does the rule of ad hominem say?

Do not use ad hominem. This means do not attack a person's character (character in this case meaning the mental and moral qualities distinctive to an individual). You are expected to argue the presented ideas, not the person. If someone were to attack you, don’t take matters into your own hands, report it to us.

And while not directly related between the two, I think these pair together good.

 

I can't say I'm necessarily proud or ashamed of the above post, but at the time the_furry was on a shitpost spree and he needed to be convinced and told to stop. He has now and he's a lot more chill because of it.

 

"don’t take matters into your own hands, report it to us."

Telling people to get a thicker skin, or saying that people already have a thicker skin than we think doesn't change the fact that you're being reported for breaking the community guidelines, and that you are. You have notes and warnings going back all the way to ye olde 2014 of acting just like how you do today. If you think every mod and every admin is wrong for not doing what you think is right and best, you should try to become a mod or admin yourself and try to enforce as you see them and how you want them to be.

[Guest]

Telling people to get a thicker skin, or saying that people already have a thicker skin than we think doesn't change the fact that you're being reported for breaking the community guidelines, and that you are.

 

If two staff members just said that you were grasping at straws in attempting to discipline or get me closer to the point where you'll remove me from the forum community and were, actually, in the wrong, how am I actually violating community guidelines, Jboy? I even hailed you over discord and asked you to DM me your reasoning for why you gave me the warning. You decided to ignore me, say you didn't owe me an explanation and for me to "take it up with an admin".

Why should anyone listen to you if you are incapable of communicating with the community why you believe their forum conduct was wrong, by analyzing the message and intent of the post rather than blindly enforcing "community guidelines" not actually made by the community? Why should anyone take you seriously if you're unable to understand what the written rule means and how to properly apply it? Did the admins not coach you guys on how to enforce these rules?

"Don't be a dick" already exists in server rules and it applies on the forums. Your interpretation of an ad hominem fallacy is incorrect, by the way. My posts were constructed in a manner to criticize not only the person but their behavior and actions stemming from that person. It is not ad hominem to criticize someone, as well as the points they are making. It is ad hominem to insult someone for no reason and ignoring the topic of debate just to go out on a limb to insult someone. It is not ad hominem to call someone a hypocrite for preaching one thing and doing another, or to call someone a liar for having done one thing and having said that they had not done that thing and had done another.

For example, if this post was constructed only or majorly of the many ways I could call you names and nothing else to address your points, you could warn me for it and I would not be in the right to argue.

A fair majority would agree that you are in the wrong in this instance. You need a break and a lesson in what logical fallaciousness is.

[LordRaven001]

Since I was the one that reported your post I will speak my mind about it. Jboy did not fully decide this on his own by his own opinion, There was a big discussion in the Staff Discord Chat that numerous staff/duty officer's agreed upon that he broke the rules, He has a past from what I can see of breaking the flame war and the Ad Hominem rule, There are a few posts even in this forum topic that could have been re-worded to sound, excuse me for being blunt and rude, but, less like an ass, We are all here for the same reason, that is to play a game, You intentionally insulted a player's character which in roleplay is an extension of that person as a whole. on the way they preformed and instead of speaking with this player (Myself) you went straight to the forums to attempt to get me punished, That is all kinds of wrong, If you want something done, Speak with the PERSON, do not go above that person and attempt to get them in-trouble, Should you have spoken with me and asked me to change my roleplay I would have done it and this situation would have never happened. I am quite fond of adapting my play-style so that it is fun for everyone, You currently are doing the opposite of that, Jboy I believe acted with in his full right to warn the post based on the history of the individual in question, Had 1138 not had a history of breaking these two rules it would have been out of line, Everybody makes mistakes, You shouldn't attempt to punish a person if it was a mistake, The same would be said in your warning had you not have a major history of breaking these two rules.

Those are my two cents, Do with them what you will.

[Guest]

There are a few posts even in this forum topic that could have been re-worded to sound, excuse me for being blunt and rude, but, less like an ass,

 

I insist that you please tone down the cursing, sir.

 

You intentionally insulted a player's character which in roleplay is an extension of that person as a whole. on the way they preformed and instead of speaking with this player (Myself) you went straight to the forums to attempt to get me punished, That is all kinds of wrong, If you want something done, Speak with the PERSON, do not go above that person and attempt to get them in-trouble, Should you have spoken with me and asked me to change my roleplay I would have done it and this situation would have never happened.

 

You were incapable of being reasoned with in IC during that incident, and I made the conclusion that you were impossible to reason with in OOC because I believed that the actions from that round that drove you to behave the way you did were a result of user frustration and anger at being chloraled because you didn't get your way.

I shouldn't have to tell you to follow corporate regulations and not act like a turbonerd in-game.

When I spoke to other DOs and some staff in regards to what I should do, they all said make a complaint. So I did, because that's what was recommended. Because what you did was absolutely out of line and awful. And previous precedents have been held to punish people accordingly for being terrible. For instance, Alberyk is very close to a permanent secban.

In fact, we are actually told to go above each other and complain to people who have the power to investigate and discipline regarding community issues.

 

Had 1138 not had a history of breaking these two rules it would have been out of line,

 

Because it's 1138, it's okay to act like Jboy did.

No, it's not. It's grasping for straws.

[Skull132]

Okay gents.

Here's the thing about ad hominem. Ad hominem is to purposefully undermine the character of an individual, instead of dealing with the complaints and arguments that the individual has raised. By this solitary definition, the warning issued to Delta on both counts (the Sue/alb thing and the LordRaven thing) falls short. While containing insults and being disrespectful (the former more-so, the latter less-so) towards other involved parties, they do not contain ad hominems.

Now. The thing about the ad hominem rule, or the general, "Don't be a dick rule" is that you do not necessarily need to issue ad hominems to be caught by it. If your post is literally awful, and contains more insults and charged language than it contains constructive reasoning, then it probably doesn't need to be on the forums either. Or, to more accurately describe de-facto enforcement, continually making posts like that will land you in trouble. This is why I would like the warning for Sue/Alb complaint to stay, as it falls into the category of being way too much salt. Because it was too much. Ya, not ad hominem, but it's still butts if you cannot remain respectful up to a certain point. While we accept that the occasional insult or two will end up in a post, we will not accept conduct which makes a regular habit of using them.

However, this presently reported post would hardly scratch the surface of that premise, I feel.

Also,

I even hailed you over discord and asked you to DM me your reasoning for why you gave me the warning. You decided to ignore me, say you didn't owe me an explanation and for me to "take it up with an admin".

This is something I'm curious about. Can you please send me the logs of the conversation had between yourself and Jboy about the event? Because, a moderator, forum mod or otherwise, is expected to explain his reasoning behind his actions when asked by an individual who has a right to know.

[Guest]

The issue with the Sue post was that, yes, I was very angry about what occurred. I loaded my arguments with a lot of heated ammunition and that wasn't a good idea. If anything, I was being a giant dickhead about setting the premise of my arguments.

In this instance, no, definitely not. Two words should not have set off the forum Arbitrators from slamming down from orbit to

Yes, I can get the logs. I'll edit this post when I recover them real quick.

Edit: Done.

 

[Gollee]

What was your problem with taking it into PMs? It's the rational and considerate thing to do. Those logs just show you being hard-headed.

[Guest]

Jboy never addressed or spoke to me in DMs. Despite being on the same Discord server as him I was unable to send DMs to him.

[Gollee]

I'm the same rank as you in the server discord, and I can send PMs. You never said in those logs that you couldn't figure out how to PM him. All you did is complain and throw insults in a public channel.

[Guest]

I'm the same rank as you in the server discord, and I can send PMs. You never said in those logs that you couldn't figure out how to PM him. All you did is complain and throw insults in a public channel.

 

Okay, what is your point? I asked them to speak to me and they refused. That is my point here. I asked them to DM me to clarify why and they did not.

 

Only post if involved. If you are not a moderator or administrator and were not involved in the incident(s) referred to, you may not post or reply to a staff complaint regarding said incident(s). It is permissible, however, to provide testimony regarding a staff member's behavior backed by proof, in the form of screenshots or logs.

 

Are you involved, Gollee? Please stop derailing this discussion.

[Gollee]

I'm the same rank as you in the server discord, and I can send PMs. You never said in those logs that you couldn't figure out how to PM him. All you did is complain and throw insults in a public channel.

 

Okay, what is your point? I asked them to speak to me and they refused. That is my point here. I asked them to DM me to clarify why and they did not.

My point is that you were given recourse to remedy the situation, instead you decided to complain about it in general chat, which might as well be OOC. You threw insults instead of actually working to resolve the situation, which is a common theme. You said in the logs that you said earlier that you asked them to PM you, but you didn't post that log, so I will assume that is incorrect until you do.

 

Only post if involved. If you are not a moderator or administrator and were not involved in the incident(s) referred to, you may not post or reply to a staff complaint regarding said incident(s). It is permissible, however, to provide testimony regarding a staff member's behavior backed by proof, in the form of screenshots or logs.

 

Are you involved, Gollee? Please stop derailing this discussion.

 

Yes, I am one of the staff members that discussed this. It's a continuation of a behavior that you said quite some time ago that you would stop. As is the log you posted.

[Guest]

Yes, I am one of the staff members that discussed this.

 

Just because you spoke about something with someone does not make you a direct proponent or a reliable source for a discussion. This topic is relating to Jboy enforcing the written rule beyond what is acceptable in terms of interpretation in a topic about me providing testimony against a shitcurity officer. You are not Jboy. You are not LordRaven. You did not bear witness nor take direct part in either situation. I have yet to see any logs in regards to any discussion anywhere. I am the only person in this topic that has put themselves out there to attempt in being as transparent and honest as possible.

To clarify in case you're not interested in reading and comprehending: You are not involved if you had no say in the forum warning.

The other topic is locked due to the fact that Sierra felt the need to protect LordRaven's otherwise unoffended feelings and shut down any further discussion. You may not discuss details relating to that topic as they are not relevant. Take them to that topic if and when it is finally unlocked, provided the forum Arbite responsible processes the appeal.

[Gollee]

https://gyazo.com/c503f914b782e8d94ee097baa33b04d6

https://gyazo.com/26160edf422e00a28953cd866af08986

https://gyazo.com/4107c8fce90a4cc8dbb3cce75ed12c88

https://gyazo.com/553b366dba706d867da35d7cca1184a3

I was actively involved, so stop. Jboy acted with several staff members, including myself, in agreement; not only that, LordRaven is part of my team. I am involved; that is not up for debate, so stop derailing.

And you have still yet to provide logs that you asked for them to PM you.

And once again, stop insulting people.

 

The other topic is locked due to the fact that Sierra felt the need to protect LordRaven's otherwise unoffended feelings and shut down any further discussion.

[Guest]

Did I not establish that I was insulting the character and not the person?

Can you not discern the difference between that, Gollee? I have mentioned this a few times in this thread now.

Can I also mention how quick LordRaven was to link the post that offended him into the staff chat rather than reporting it (via the little report button) and then leaving it to the forum mods to deal with? That's hilariously hypocritical because he just said a few posts ago about literally the same thing.

IN ADDITION: You're not a forum mod! Why are you influencing forum mod decisions? They can do their job themselves.

[Gollee]

He had already reported it by that point.

 

You were an ignorant peon misinterpreting the situation and I had you neutralized so I could do my job in helping someone who needed more attention than you did.

This line doesn't say "Your character", nor does it say that anywhere in the paragraph I pulled it from. It says you

It was brought up in the general chat, so I discussed it. It was with a member of my team, so I discussed it. I am a staff member, whatever you seem to believe, so I discussed it. Drop the derailing, I am posting here whatever you think.

[Guest]

It was not intentionally phrased to insult the player. You've seen me directly insult players before, don't distract and detract with semantics and accuse me of derailing. The only one that's shitposting lies and misinformation would be you.

To clarify, since everyone is so convinced I was so out for LordRaven's booty in the previous instance: "You" being "LordRaven's Warden", as I cannot directly interact with LordRaven in-game aside from their character. "You" is an easier way of saying "Your character", is that such a reach to you?

https://gyazo.com/4107c8fce90a4cc8dbb3cce75ed12c88

"Foster hate". Yeah, okay, Gollee. "Ignorant peon" directed at a 2d spacesquid immediately reminds you of the equivalent of a hate crime over a video game. Got it.

https://gyazo.com/553b366dba706d867da35d7cca1184a3

You have a great deal of emotional investment in this case, Gollee! I believe we call that motive. You seem to match that of LordRaven's as well. I do believe you're actively undermining your own case in this regard.

I personally apologize to Jboy for my comments and if I was angry hateful or upset in any regard, it is clear that he is not the source of this metagrudging clique nonsense. Gollee, it is you. It is you and LordRaven that have both been petty and insistently attempting to bend staff structure to fit your own ends.

Don't reply. I want this thread closed up, I'll be opening another sometime later.