Staff Complaint - LordRaven001

[Nikov]

BYOND Key: Nikov

Staff BYOND Key: LordRaven001

Reason for complaint: Warned against Valid Hunting, lack of Fear RP.

"Charged into the AI Core with zero fear of the lethal turrets, later chased down an engineering borg shooting ion bolts at it Please don't hunt down antags it makes it unfun for them and other people involved."

Evidence/logs/etc: Character in question is Manfred Hayden, Chief Engineer for that shift. Manfred's twenty-year career in a space navy was primarily engineering, but included small arms training for boarding or shore actions as "naval infantry". He has no amazing skill, but can operate and aim a weapon with the good sense to keep his body behind cover, or working the angles of a room. In a number of rounds he's been handed shotguns or pistols by Captains to secure Engineering in a Code Red, and he dutifully follows whatever rules they place on him. So this is an accepted character trait from other rounds.

Following a long period of stillness, the AI revealed itself to be malfunctioning. Manfred made no great effort to out the AI as malf, and was in fact in surgery around the time this decision was made. With engineering being rather short-staffed, Manfred was personally ordered to destroy the AI. He began setting up an emitter and generator to shoot out the core. The AI attempted several methods of defeating him while monologue-ing and roleplaying with others about synthetic rights, etc. Clearly, demonstrably, admittedly, a malfunctioning AI. After defeating a supermatter overload attempt and preemptively shutting down atmospherics, he finished drilling into the AI core with the emitter. He did not, however, know if the AI was truly dead. AI cores can be moved aside, he had no idea how many emitter shots were needed to do the job, so on and so forth.

A security detachment and a doctor or two had gathered around the breach, keeping cyborgs away from interfering with the CE's work (one did, briefly but gallantly, throw itself in front of the emitter). There was a security officer, a female human, in a sec hardsuit with an ion rifle. Manfred asked her for the ion rifle. She happily handed it over. Manfred, wearing an atmos hardsuit, began working his way into the core with the ion rifle. His intention was to...

1. Carry out his orders to destroy the AI.

2. Reduce property damage by disabling, not destroying, the AI core and other hardware.

3. Reduce risk of injry or death by methodically eliminating defenses by using the layout of the core and the weaknesses of the turrets, which he was very familiar with, to his advantage.

4. Maintain his reputation and show courage in the face of danger and in front of his peers.

5. Keep said human woman from getting shot instead of him.

At this, I received a warning for "valid hunting", as LordRaven001 argued an Engineer shouldn't "charge into lethal turrets guns blazing". Or somesuch. He should instead roleplay fear.

Fear of what.

Fear of shirking off a lawful order?

Fear of Security destroying millions of dollars of hardware?

Fear of Security getting ambushed by turrets that might surprise them?

Fear of looking like a coward in front of his peers?

Fear of allowing a woman to come to harm doing his job? A man's job?

"Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear, not absence of fear." - Mark Twain

Manfred was, in fact, afraid. He was ordered to destroy the AI, which had just attempted to blow up the entire station using the supermatter engine, and would doubtlessly try to kill everyone he knew. This is something he is deeply afraid of. What he is more afraid of still is failing to protect and serve the people who depend on him. He is afraid of shame, of being considered a coward. And if that isn't more fearful than death, then explain to me what compelled men to leave their trenches at the Somme. They all feared shame more than death.

Additional remarks: Being a heavy RP server, characters should be expected to be deeper than job descriptions.

Edited May 8, 2016 by Guest

[LordRaven001]

Following a long period of stillness, the AI revealed itself to be malfunctioning. Manfred made no great effort to out the AI as malf, and was in fact in surgery around the time this decision was made. With engineering being rather short-staffed, Manfred was personally ordered to destroy the AI. He began setting up an emitter and generator to shoot out the core. The AI attempted several methods of defeating him while monologue-ing and roleplaying with others about synthetic rights, etc. Clearly, demonstrably, admittedly, a malfunctioning AI. After defeating a supermatter overload attempt and preemptively shutting down atmospherics, he finished drilling into the AI core with the emitter. He did not, however, know if the AI was truly dead. AI cores can be moved aside, he had no idea how many emitter shots were needed to do the job, so on and so forth.

If you didn't know the AI was dead, Why would you charge head first into the AI Core surrounded by possible vented,lethally armed turrets, and cyborgs inside? Manfred may have been ordered but no rational character would fearlessly charge into the AI Core willingly sacrificing their life.

 

1. Carry out his orders to destroy the AI.

Which you did with an Emitter, Security's job is to secure and eliminate threats, Not the Chief Engineers, I got in-trouble for the exact same thing you did, Its a heavily enforced policy.

2. Reduce property damage by disabling, not destroying, the AI core and other hardware.

Which Security, Who have good weapons training, and are trained by Biesel police could have done easily with an EMP Grenade or an Ion Rifle.

3. Reduce risk of injry or death by methodically eliminating defenses by using the layout of the core and the weaknesses of the turrets, which he was very familiar with, to his advantage.

The Head of Security, And two security officers are there, They could have thrown in two EMPs and safely secured the core, You instead risked your life with zero fear and rambo rushed the AI Core.

4. Maintain his reputation and show courage in the face of danger and in front of his peers.

5. Keep said human woman from getting shot instead of him.

These two reasons are still not an excuse to fearlessly charge into the AI's Core, with unknown hostile forces await.

 

At this, I received a warning for "valid hunting", as LordRaven001 argued an Engineer shouldn't "charge into lethal turrets guns blazing". Or somesuch. He should instead roleplay fear.

Not true at all, We had a long conversation, about FearRP, Proper Roleplay, and your characters backstory , Even though you were very argumentative and disrespectful in the ahelp, Continuously complaining about me and badmouthing me in LOOC too the Head of Security. Had you not started hunting down cyborgs with an ion rifle while on fire (PainRP,FearRP), Primarily the Engineering Cyborg you kept shooting at while chasing him into the emergency medbay entrance when that cyborg was armed with a weapon and a plasma tank, I would have not warned you for valid hunting or FearRP.

 

Manfred was, in fact, afraid. He was ordered to destroy the AI, which had just attempted to blow up the entire station using the supermatter engine, and would doubtlessly try to kill everyone he knew. This is something he is deeply afraid of. What he is more afraid of still is failing to protect and serve the people who depend on him. He is afraid of shame, of being considered a coward. And if that isn't more fearful than death, then explain to me what compelled men to leave their trenches at the Somme. They all feared shame more than death.

 

Being afraid of shame and other peoples opinion doesn't give you the training or skill to charge headfirst into a core armed to the teeth with anti-personnel weaponry, Then hunt down cyborgs, As you stated previously the ENTIRE security team was outside the core, You could have let one of them enter, We have a strict policy on playing hero/valid hunting.

 

Being a heavy RP server, characters should be expected to be deeper than job descriptions.

As they are treated, Your character being a Chief Engineer with minimalism weapons and military training wouldn't know how to operate an ion rifle with such precision and training to eliminate eight turrets and an SMES, Then hunt down an engineering cyborg.

EDIT: I will get the ahelp logs as soon as an admin comes online.

[Icuris]

Head of Security here, I also am terrible with computers so not going to attempt to do the quoting thing. With my luck I'd download a virus.

I'll add what I saw in this situation and compare it to an old situation that I've had in the past.

1.

Following a long period of stillness, the AI revealed itself to be malfunctioning. Manfred made no great effort to out the AI as malf, and was in fact in surgery around the time this decision was made. With engineering being rather short-staffed, Manfred was personally ordered to destroy the AI. He began setting up an emitter and generator to shoot out the core. The AI attempted several methods of defeating him while monologue-ing and roleplaying with others about synthetic rights, etc. Clearly, demonstrably, admittedly, a malfunctioning AI. After defeating a supermatter overload attempt and preemptively shutting down atmospherics, he finished drilling into the AI core with the emitter. He did not, however, know if the AI was truly dead. AI cores can be moved aside, he had no idea how many emitter shots were needed to do the job, so on and so forth.

If you didn't know the AI was dead, Why would you charge head first into the AI Core surrounded by possible vented,lethally armed turrets, and cyborgs inside? Manfred may have been ordered but no rational character would fearlessly charge into the AI Core willingly sacrificing their life.

 

First things first. I arrived very late to this round right as the AI was presenting themselves as an antag. I lacked my full suit of gear and had just happened to grab the ion rifle as the captain ordered it to be taken out. Manfred being more involved with the situation and ICly knowing the necessary ways to safely breach the core, led me to decide that it would be more appropriate and efficient to have him lead the operation to breach and deal with the AI.

2.

1. Carry out his orders to destroy the AI.

Which you did with an Emitter, Security's job is to secure and eliminate threats, Not the Chief Engineers, I got in-trouble for the exact same thing you did, Its a heavily enforced policy.

 

I've had other heads of staff lead operations in the past when it falls out of my expertise ICly. A changling round, I attempt to have the RD in charge and so on.

3.

Which Security, Who have good weapons training, and are trained by Biesel police could have done easily with an EMP Grenade or an Ion Rifle.

3. Reduce risk of injry or death by methodically eliminating defenses by using the layout of the core and the weaknesses of the turrets, which he was very familiar with, to his advantage.

 

Short story: I am as about as robust as a piece of paper, we had a nuke op go SSD one round and Skull asked me to fill in. I did. I and the two other fully armed individuals stormed through engineering and engaged security in the hallway. As it happens due to the rounds progression and the antags previous engagements with the crew, cargo had become a militia of a sorts lead by a QM with military training. From what I saw, we had a QM lead a charge and kill us. I asked about this and this was OKAYED by the person that I ahelped due to player skills. Once again, hitting the point that your rank on the manifest will not and should not limit your player skills and back round within reason.

 

The Head of Security, And two security officers are there, They could have thrown in two EMPs and safely secured the core, You instead risked your life with zero fear and rambo rushed the AI Core.

4. Maintain his reputation and show courage in the face of danger and in front of his peers.

5. Keep said human woman from getting shot instead of him.

These two reasons are still not an excuse to fearlessly charge into the AI's Core, with unknown hostile forces await.

4. Could have, should have, would have. Again, not enough time to gear up fully and the "entire security department" (Myself and an officer present) were aware that the synthetic units were also rouge and still operating to a degree. Protecting the CE was our priority by my order.

Again, this wasn't a rambo rush from what I saw. This was a man that had moved carefully and happened to have all of his decisions go his way. We were undergeared and undermanned. We all knew this. The only gear we had on us to take out the AI safely was the rifle. I handed it off to my officer, who eventually handed it to Manfred as we carefully looked into double checking the AI.

 

At this, I received a warning for "valid hunting", as LordRaven001 argued an Engineer shouldn't "charge into lethal turrets guns blazing". Or somesuch. He should instead roleplay fear.

Not true at all, We had a long conversation, about FearRP, Proper Roleplay, and your characters backstory , Even though you were very argumentative and disrespectful in the ahelp, Continuously complaining about me and badmouthing me in LOOC too the Head of Security. Had you not started hunting down cyborgs with an ion rifle while on fire (PainRP,FearRP), Primarily the Engineering Cyborg you kept shooting at while chasing him into the emergency medbay entrance when that cyborg was armed with a weapon and a plasma tank, I would have not warned you for valid hunting or FearRP.

 

5. I will not speak for Manfred's conduct in your private discussion. However as far as I recall no "Badmouthing occurred". He said he got bwoinked. I asked why, he said why, I let him be. The only other thing that came from LOOC that I saw was him stating that he was still talking with you five minutes into the emergency that was still present as people were still dying. No name was dropped, no hint of rudeness that I could detect. Logs speak louder then words. So let's see them.

 

Manfred was, in fact, afraid. He was ordered to destroy the AI, which had just attempted to blow up the entire station using the supermatter engine, and would doubtlessly try to kill everyone he knew. This is something he is deeply afraid of. What he is more afraid of still is failing to protect and serve the people who depend on him. He is afraid of shame, of being considered a coward. And if that isn't more fearful than death, then explain to me what compelled men to leave their trenches at the Somme. They all feared shame more than death.

Being afraid of shame and other peoples opinion doesn't give you the training or skill to charge headfirst into a core armed to the teeth with anti-personnel weaponry, Then hunt down cyborgs, As you stated previously the ENTIRE security team was outside the core, You could have let one of them enter, We have a strict policy on playing hero/valid hunting.

 

6. I've covered some of these points already. "ENTIRE security team" was an officer in a hardsuit and myself in standard gear. I gave her the ion she gave me the shotgun. No one was armed to the teeth. Rank =/= character training and ability (within reason).

Now, I want to look at this from an IC perspective. Manfred is in charge of the operation, he knows that I and the officer are not well versed in the layout of the core and how to safely enter it. Why would he have us put in harms way when he may safely achieve that goal through other means?

 

Being a heavy RP server, characters should be expected to be deeper than job descriptions.

As they are treated, Your character being a Chief Engineer with minimalism weapons and military training wouldn't know how to operate an ion rifle with such precision and training to eliminate eight turrets and an SMES, Then hunt down an engineering cyborg.

 

7. Once again, will not speak for any other person's action. If his IC backround permits the action and it is done in a manner that supports the progress of the round then so be it. I've seen more outlandish things done with a full staff backing "A la cargo militia".

I have no desire to speak for anyone but if Nursie, as the antagonist wished to say anything then it would be appropriate.

[LordRaven001]

He was not warned for charging into the AI Core with four lethal turrets even though its bad form. As he convinced me otherwise through adminhelps with character backstory, and I checked his skills he had basic weapon expertise. Though I was going to note it down encase another incident happened like this, as he has a long history of dropping everything to charge kill the AI and Cyborgs. He was warned for hunting down an engineering cyborg while on fire with an ion rifle, Ignoring all FearRP,PainRP, and breaking the valid hunting rule not two seconds later, If he didn't drop everything to chase the engineering cyborg with an ion rifle while a raging plasma fire was engulfing him, He wouldn't have been warned,

[Nikov]

I stood still answering your adminpms regarding the core while the rest of the station fell apart.

An engineering cyborg walked up dragging a phoron can, opened it two tiles away from me, and lit it on fire.

I shot at him once and headed toward medbay.

I was wearing a fireproof atmos voidsuit.

[Alberyk]

As a bystander that did watch security and engineering action on said round and as a staff member which had access to pms and logs; I do not fully agree that Manfred's actions on the core itself were worthy of a warning, due to the point mostly explained by Icarus. If I can recall, he was hit once by a turret before disabling them and confirming the AI to be dead by the emitter. If I am not wrong, at this point, the service borg was destroyed and the engineering one was far from the core, so, it would be empty.

Also, I can confirm that the borg releasing plasma happened after the pm in relation to the assault of the core. So, due to having an ion weapon and the atmos suit, firing upon said borg, which only purpose was to set everything on fire, seems to be justified.

[LordRaven001]

I stood still answering your adminpms regarding the core while the rest of the station fell apart.

An engineering cyborg walked up dragging a phoron can, opened it two tiles away from me, and lit it on fire.

I shot at him once and headed toward medbay.

I was wearing a fireproof atmos voidsuit.

 

You stood still but as soon as you saw the borg and the open plasma canister you headed in the direction of the borg firing the ion rifle.

You were wearing a fireproof atmos voidsuit, Yet you still died from a raging phoron fire, I don't believe the atmos voidsuits are fireproof in this code.

[Nikov]

I just can't wrap my head around how the AI core with lethal turrets was "bad form" but an unarmed cyborg was "not fear RPing". It really sounds like you realized your first charge was not enough to stick, but then found me doing something else you could construe as questionable, so you then warned me for that.

"Please don't hunt down antags it makes it unfun for them and other people involved"

This also makes absolutely no sense as the first antag attempted a supermatter explosion and the second antag created a raging phoron fire. What... what is unfun for them? Consequences? People reacting?

Why did you bwoink me over the core, tie me up in the middle of a crisis for ten minutes, accuse me of badmouthing you when I explained I was being bwoinked to those screaming for my help, if that wasn't worth a warning? Did you just read the note Aimless gave me from a previous round and assumed I was at it again? Did you then realize I had every reason to do what I did, and frantically scramble to find a new problem to stick me with?

Why did you not reprimand the borg who walked up to someone in a adminPM conversation with you and lit the hall on fire? If you're so worried about making it fun for everyone, why did you allow the borgs to light plasma fires in major hallways?

I said it before, and I'll say it again. You are very inconsistent as a moderator.

[LordRaven001]

I just can't wrap my head around how the AI core with lethal turrets was "bad form" but an unarmed cyborg was "not fear RPing". It really sounds like you realized your first charge was not enough to stick, but then found me doing something else you could construe as questionable, so you then warned me for that.

Nikov, Alberyk literally just told you that he would have warned you for charging an AI Core with lethal turrets, I am a very lenient moderator, If your accusing me of having a personal vendetta against you please don't, You have a large history of jumping into action as a Chief Engineer when your character and skills don't support that.

 

As a bystander that did watch security and engineering action on said round and as a staff member which had access to pms and logs; I do not fully agree that Manfred's actions on the core itself were worthy of a warning, due to the point mostly explained by Icarus. If I can recall, he was hit once by a turret before disabling them and confirming the AI to be dead by the emitter. If I am not wrong, at this point, the service borg was destroyed and the engineering one was far from the core, so, it would be empty.

 

"Please don't hunt down antags it makes it unfun for them and other people involved"

This also makes absolutely no sense as the first antag attempted a supermatter explosion and the second antag created a raging phoron fire. What... what is unfun for them? Consequences? People reacting?

Nikov, I add a little piece of advice in every warning I make, Antags isn't a code word for synthetics, It involves EVERY antag in our codebase, Don't hunt them down unless your security, Playing hero is bad form and isn't allowed.

 

Why did you bwoink me over the core, tie me up in the middle of a crisis for ten minutes, accuse me of badmouthing you when I explained I was being bwoinked to those screaming for my help, if that wasn't worth a warning? Did you just read the note Aimless gave me from a previous round and assumed I was at it again? Did you then realize I had every reason to do what I did, and frantically scramble to find a new problem to stick me with?

Why would I even include the note aimless gave you in this conversation? It has zero relevance to this case, I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt and not auto-warn you when it was a high adrenaline situation, Then you started being disrespectful in LOOC and very argumentative in the ahelps, On top of chasing down an engineering cyborg with an ion rifle, As I just said, Playing hero and valid hunting are bad form and not allowed in our server.

 

Why did you not reprimand the borg who walked up to someone in a adminPM conversation with you and lit the hall on fire? If you're so worried about making it fun for everyone, why did you allow the borgs to light plasma fires in major hallways?

You were not winded, AdminPMs are between the player and the moderator, You don't get a full exclusion from all RP actions if a staff member bwoinks you, The Cyborg had gotten the entire staff teams approval to light the phoron fires, The proper escalation was provided.

I am a completely unbiased moderator, And I will not try to "Dig up" or "Stick Charges" On anyone, You may ask the entire staff team I have worked with so far, I try for lenient punishments in most situations, Unless the player has clearly done something wrong, Or is being very argumentative and disrespectful, As I look at the players from a player point of view, Not a staff members.

[Icuris]

This is going in circles. I would like to recommend full logs and an admin involvement.

[Serveris]

Right, after speaking with Skull concerning these, and reading the briefs provided by Icuris concerning security's involvement in this, there are a couple points that administration would like addressed concerning the incident.

Point one. Prior to the alleged incident noted in this complaint, it's come to our attention that Raven had begun speaking to Nikov prior to the incident with the borg and the plasma canister, and prior to the attacking of the core turrets. Why? What were the original issues that lead to this? Where did Raven's original focus on this incident first take place? How did it start? As stated by Raven, the warning was issued for neglecting painRP whilst engaging the cyborg, not for the core assault itself.

Point two. While hardsuited, the plasma canister was opened and set ablaze. Manfred, whom was shielded from the fire by said hardsuit, immediately retaliated by engaging the cyborg. Why is this deemed a lack of FearRP, and not a reasonable response to having been set on fire?

Because by my judgement, this is a pretty reasonable use of force in reprisal. He had the means and the justification to defend himself after being set on fire. He was also protected from the initial fire in itself, again, due to having been wearing protective gear beforehand.

[LordRaven001]

Point one. Prior to the alleged incident noted in this complaint, it's come to our attention that Raven had begun speaking to Nikov prior to the incident with the borg and the plasma canister, and prior to the attacking of the core turrets. Why? What were the original issues that lead to this? Where did Raven's original focus on this incident first take place? How did it start? As stated by Raven, the warning was issued for neglecting painRP whilst engaging the cyborg, not for the core assault itself.

 

The original issue was he rambo charged into the AI core surrounded by lethal turrets, was shot by one of the said turrets, did not even roleplay a reaction or retreat just kept rambo charging with the ion rifle killing the turrets, I was going to warm him for assaulting the core but me being me, I don't like seeing people get punished so I was going to note it down that he charged in there, I did not even have time to re-enter my corpse before he engaged the cyborg in combat while brutally burning to death.

 

Point two. While hardsuited, the plasma canister was opened and set ablaze. Manfred, whom was shielded from the fire by said hardsuit, immediately retaliated by engaging the cyborg. Why is this deemed a lack of FearRP, and not a reasonable response to having been set on fire?

Because by my judgement, this is a pretty reasonable use of force in reprisal. He had the means and the justification to defend himself after being set on fire. He was also protected from the initial fire in itself, again, due to having been wearing protective gear beforehand.

 

He was not shielded from the fire, and infact died from the fire, I deemed it a lack of FearRP and PainRP as his face and skin was melting off his body, He instead of preserving himself while he was by a door with zero plasma gas or fire, Charged at the cyborg walking away from the safety of the door, Only to die two tiles ahead.

[Serveris]

Okay.

In a shellnut, I can see why Nikov acted as he did in this incident, and honestly, do not find any major fault in it. That being said, from Raven's perspective, I can fully understand why this course of action would be perceived as a lack of PainRP, or validhunting. The execution to this perception appears to be the flaw here, and we are willing to correct it.

The issue for which the warning was issued was, from how it appears, a classic 'fight or flight' scenario. While exercising self-preservation over pursuing hostiles is preferred, it's understandable that you figured the hardsuit would protect you, and you already had a gun in your hand, so you acted immediately on impulse, which is a situation that moderators should take into account before deciding on taking action, as this doesn't immediately indicate that the player is in the wrong for doing so. I will remove the warning when I'm on later this evening.

As per Raven's views on the matter, as stated previously, I understand where he was coming from. If you're ever put into a similar situation, your immediate priority should be the safety of yourself. The fact that you chose to immediately engage the cyborg over trying to get to safety doesn't look very good for your intentions.

I will speak with Raven concerning this incident, and leave this open for another 12 hours, so that those of you involved may share your thoughts on this before I speak to Skull about concluding it.

[Nikov]

The problem lies in getting to safety. LordRaven's description of events doesn't work, since opening an airlock to a room not on fire would spread the fire to that room. This is also entirely contrary to every bit of damage control training Manfred has.

Furthermore after firing the one shot remaining in the ion rifle, he went to Medbay's side access point, where he died. That... that is running to safety.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Guest

[LordRaven001]

The problem lies in getting to safety. LordRaven's description of events doesn't work, since opening an airlock to a room not on fire would spread the fire to that room. This is also entirely contrary to every bit of damage control training Manfred has.

 

FIre locks three of them were there, You could have closed one, Turned around opened the airlock, Then resisted to put yourself out.

[Alberyk]

Also, I did not say that I would have warned him for going into the core with ion weaponry, neither for firing at the borg which was trying to release plasma on the crew.

[Nikov]

How am I supposed to fear RP carefully opening and closing firelocks with a crowbar while burning alive, but not shooting the cyborg and running to medbay in equal states of panic.

[Serveris]

To be frank, if I was burning alive, carefully opening and closing firelocks would probably be the least of my concerns to getting out of the fire and finding a fire extinguisher. Making sure I was going to survive would take priority over me getting sweet vengeance. Moving to medical afterwards would also have been a smart-move. Simply food for thought, should any similar issues occur.

[Nikov]

The problem is that somewhere, according to someone, any given action made in character will have a different ideal action according to the observer, especially if that character is making decisions based on bad information (I am in an atmos voidsuit, I am immune to fire). At some point the observer has to assume a character may not make the same decision as the observer. It is why we are roleplaying, after all.

[Serveris]

Precisely, and Raven was spoken to concerning the importance of taking into account other viewpoints before acting. I couldn't agree with you more.

[Serveris]

Given the inactivity, and all points having been addressed, we will now consider this issue resolved.

Locking and archiving.