Player Complaint: Swat43

[Jakers457]

Re-adding objectives seems fundamentally flawed to me. The point of having objective less antags is to have more creative, unique, interesting, and less powergamey antags, among other things.

 

Though apparently that isn't the case with this incident, though I'm not going to chastise Swat about it because I enjoy interacting with Fortune. I mean, I suppose they could claim a bounty if one of the current crew had a price on their head but aside from that, there isn't much to be had. I mean, I robbed the vault once and it was incredibly successful, didn't get caught until I tried hitting tech storage. But even then there was little satisfaction to be had. Most antagonists have a loose objective, such as the cult or Nuke Ops, but then others such as simple traitors have nothing. The idea of having a traitor or 'sleeper agent' is that they can be activated for a particular goal that needs to be achieved. Getting a call saying 'time to pay your debts to the Syndicate, here's some expensive equipment' then for them to give you no real goal to achieve, no benefit on their part or long term investment, makes little sense cost wise.

[Gamegod12]

In regards to the borgs ganking people, I feel.that's the borg players at fault as they are the ones actually murderlising people.

You seem to have completely forgotten that the borgs were created by, and are bound to Fortune. Meaning they follow her orders. So like it or not, she is responsible for their actions. Inaction is in itself an action you know. She could have very easily pulled a no kill/capture order, as ALL of then were sec borgs, being constantly repaired by Fortune herself. Meaning they had to have stayed in range of her.

[Frances]

You seem to have completely forgotten that the borgs were created by, and are bound to Fortune. Meaning they follow her orders. So like it or not, she is responsible for their actions. Inaction is in itself an action you know. She could have very easily pulled a no kill/capture order, as ALL of then were sec borgs, being constantly repaired by Fortune herself. Meaning they had to have stayed in range of her.

Except a borg is still a player - if anything, being emagged gives you more freedom to make your own calls. Unless you're specifically ordered by your master to go assassinate someone (in which case you should probably talk it over with them on LOOC or ahelp it), there's nothing that forces you to kill people mindlessly.

Just a few situations:

-Traitor orders you to guard an area - do your best to, announce to people you will subdue them or use lethal force if they trespass - if they do, they've been warned, and you had reasonable cause. Normal escalation of force.

-Traitor orders you to guard an area - you kill people without giving them a chance to understand what's going on - you fucked up.

-Traitor orders you to go kill people - they fucked up (in most cases, anyway).

[Gamegod12]

I know I've brought this up before, but I'll bring it up again.

Why exactly did you clone the HoS? And JUST the HoS?

Honestly from my vantage point, and from the fact that the player who played the HoS is now defending Swat, it makes it seem like you co-ordinated OOC in order to do something like this. As it seems incredibly stupid for a HoS to turn on the company that he has in fact been hired to protect, and has no doubt been with them for a long ordeal. So could you please explain what motivated you to reanimate seemingly your greatest threat?

[swat43]

Alright, since the post is now at it's last straws, and you do not know the reason as to why i cloned HoS, is plain simple.

Fortune is Syrus's Setos girlfriend/future wife, and HoS had loyalty implant, which would have given her a bad time dealing with him, so, after Syrus was killed, she brought the dead body to outpost to repair the borgs with out interuption from the crew (melody being crazy and beating the window that time) I had to plan out my next moves on how to control the station better, and make a foothold at Robotics. Syrus was dead, and there was no use of him, untill after i and the three borgs arrived on the science lab, it was nearly deserted, and you were also killed in the process, i came up with another solution to revive HoS, and make him turn to my side, since Syrus trusts Fortune (IC reasons as to why Syrus trusts Fortune, you can ask him, or me when ever im online back on Aurora). Syrus could give Fortune abit more advantage, if he was lied to (which was succesfull) And he had no Loyalty implant either which gave me the oportunity to turn him against the crew, and help me with my untrue reasons which he would only know in the end game. Syrus was in doubts that is true, but he was also experiencing CMD, and the whole situation was a mess, and hell, even i would be in a 'what the f*ck' moment when i was awoken by some one i trust and sh*t is hitting the fan and makes situations complicated. He was my greatest threat, but for Fortune he was also his further husband. My reason is advantage and love. Anything else you want me to justify?

[Gamegod12]

Alright, since the post is now at it's last straws, and you do not know the reason as to why i cloned HoS, is plain simple.

Fortune is Syrus's Setos girlfriend/future wife, and HoS had loyalty implant, which would have given her a bad time dealing with him, so, after Syrus was killed, she brought the dead body to outpost to repair the borgs with out interuption from the crew (melody being crazy and beating the window that time) I had to plan out my next moves on how to control the station better, and make a foothold at Robotics. Syrus was dead, and there was no use of him, untill after i and the three borgs arrived on the science lab, it was nearly deserted, and you were also killed in the process, i came up with another solution to revive HoS, and make him turn to my side, since Syrus trusts Fortune (IC reasons as to why Syrus trusts Fortune, you can ask him, or me when ever im online back on Aurora). Syrus could give Fortune abit more advantage, if he was lied to (which was succesfull) And he had no Loyalty implant either which gave me the oportunity to turn him against the crew, and help me with my untrue reasons which he would only know in the end game. Syrus was in doubts that is true, but he was also experiencing CMD, and the whole situation was a mess, and hell, even i would be in a 'what the f*ck' moment when i was awoken by some one i trust and sh*t is hitting the fan and makes situations complicated. He was my greatest threat, but for Fortune he was also his further husband. My reason is advantage and love. Anything else you want me to justify?

 

Right so you want to tell me. Fortune had her boyfriend/husband killed just so she could revive him later without an implant? That seems powergamey to me. And a stupid form of "love".

I don't know about you, but if I worked with NT for more than few years, building up a long history with them, it would take someone special to convince me to suddenly just turn against them for any reason. Pretty sure any morally sound individual would see that Fortune was doing wrong, considering innocent people were dying constantly, sometimes in front of him.

[Gollee]

 

Right so you want to tell me. Fortune had her boyfriend/husband killed just so she could revive him later without an implant? That seems powergamey to me. And a stupid form of "love".

I don't know about you, but if I worked with NT for more than few years, building up a long history with them, it would take someone special to convince me to suddenly just turn against them for any reason. Pretty sure any morally sound individual would see that Fortune was doing wrong, considering innocent people were dying constantly, sometimes in front of him.

 

This, your fiancee telling you that the crew is going crazy while her hacked borgs gun down people isn't going to make you follow her without question.

Also, ICly, I believe cloning isn't 100% certainty?

[swat43]

Golle, that is an 'IF' situation. Sure everything can happen but what happened that time happened. Stupid form of love? People have done more dumber things in form of 'love' that you wouldn't believe and this would make it a normal situation. As for the implant? Maybe you can count on it abit of powergamey, but do not forget that Fortune also talked to Syrus when he was an HoS on extended rounds. So she has learned more or less about Syrus status and his place in NT.

Anything else, gamegod?

[Gamegod12]

Golle, that is an 'IF' situation. Sure everything can happen but what happened that time happened. Stupid form of love? People have done more dumber things in form of 'love' that you wouldn't believe and this would make it a normal situation. As for the implant? Maybe you can count on it abit of powergamey, but do not forget that Fortune also talked to Syrus when he was an HoS on extended rounds. So she has learned more or less about Syrus status and his place in NT.

Anything else, gamegod?

 

The fact that it COULD have happened and she would have lost her love forever should be enough to make her think twice about doing it, unless she doesn't love him and you're lying of course.

And another thing, I don't care how ridiculous other rounds are, nor the other interaction with Syrus, because frankly it doesn't matter. She should not have taken that undoubtedly extreme risk.

You aren't giving details either, which leads me to believe there aren't any, unless you want to provide some?

[swat43]

-sighs tirelessly- This is in fact either really tiring me, gamegod to always explain things that i do, but i hope i wont fall down on the keyboard while i do it.

Let's see..That round for me was particularly amusing yet tactical for me. Sure you wont see it nor confirm nor do should i care, since that round is under water, but to matter at hand. She had given a heavy objective (my own) and she needed to do with any means necesary to do so, in which when ever i have given my objectives, i consider them and plan them out. And first steps were emaging and hacking the AI. Winding forward the actions to the fact when Syrus was in a standalone against three death borgs and me, i had ideas running in my head on how to turn such situation around. One of it as simple and by that i mean killing the HoS, which was done, untill later on i thought of a new tactic. Since my borgs wouldn't stand any longer (but they did, also gg wp to you guys, you were the best) i could use Syrus to manipulate him on my side. It was a risk, of course. That round? Yes, she didnt loved Syrus, because she had objective and to put feelings aside. As cold hearted and b*tchy as it may sound, she did her job.

Also i've got a question for you, since this is a really long complaint form. Is it due to my play style of what i do my things, or do you really have something against me that you just dont feel like telling me? Of course this question is out of character but im intrigued to know it.

[Gamegod12]

-sighs tirelessly- This is in fact either really tiring me, gamegod to always explain things that i do, but i hope i wont fall down on the keyboard while i do it.

Let's see..That round for me was particularly amusing yet tactical for me. Sure you wont see it nor confirm nor do should i care, since that round is under water, but to matter at hand. She had given a heavy objective (my own) and she needed to do with any means necesary to do so, in which when ever i have given my objectives, i consider them and plan them out. And first steps were emaging and hacking the AI. Winding forward the actions to the fact when Syrus was in a standalone against three death borgs and me, i had ideas running in my head on how to turn such situation around. One of it as simple and by that i mean killing the HoS, which was done, untill later on i thought of a new tactic. Since my borgs wouldn't stand any longer (but they did, also gg wp to you guys, you were the best) i could use Syrus to manipulate him on my side. It was a risk, of course. That round? Yes, she didnt loved Syrus, because she had objective and to put feelings aside. As cold hearted and b*tchy as it may sound, she did her job.

Also i've got a question for you, since this is a really long complaint form. Is it due to my play style of what i do my things, or do you really have something against me that you just dont feel like telling me? Of course this question is out of character but im intrigued to know it.

 

The first bit isn't needed at all, it's downright insulting, let alone a waste of time.

You've also contradicted yourself, which leads me to believe you are making this up on the spot. You first claim it was done for love, now you claim she didn't love him, so why have him? He serves no purpose whatsoever. Make up your mind.

And I will say, I am massively opposed to the "Goon" way of playing the round, which is exactly your playstyle, which I personally believe is unsuitable for a Heavy RP server, due to the lack of RP involved. If you want to go play super agent, go to Goon. If you want to play the manipulative bitch who hides in the shadows and performs her objectives without so much of a whisper? Sure, I'm all for it.

Bottom line is: Why do it here? Why bother? Goon or Nox seems like the better place for yourself. No offense intended.

[Frances]

The love plot with reviving the HoS seems a bit silly. /But/ if I'm understanding everything right, Fortune didn't actually do anything out of love herself - she used the HoS' affection for her to trick him into doing her bidding. And that story is consistent with everything Swat has said.

Yes, it's risky - but antags don't need to be the most balanced individuals, and I think it was a gambit that could be both interesting, and conductive to good roleplay (playing with trickery, deception and such).

I do not think rounds with a lot of action are necessarily a bad thing. Again, a lot of blame is being placed on Swat simply because the round ended with a lot of people dying - besides one borg getting overly excited and ganking someone (not Swat's fault), most of the people died because they were stupid in trying to fight the antagonists.

 

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I do not want to muzzle people in their playstyles. I don't think we need to be a server where we say "no, don't fight, because fighting is for nox and goon and always turns out badly and with no RP". That is a gross misrepresentation of the quality of our rounds as a whole - and "action" rounds do foster roleplay as well. Things will always fuck up one time or another - just don't get hung up on those times, accept that they're part of a natural and very difficult to control ecosystem. (Run the same nations round twice, one will be great and the other a complete disaster for no discernable reason; this still won't convince me to stop running nations rounds.)

[Gamegod12]

The love plot with reviving the HoS seems a bit silly. /But/ if I'm understanding everything right, Fortune didn't actually do anything out of love herself - she used the HoS' affection for her to trick him into doing her bidding. And that story is consistent with everything Swat has said.

Yes, it's risky - but antags don't need to be the most balanced individuals, and I think it was a gambit that could be both interesting, and conductive to good roleplay (playing with trickery, deception and such).

I do not think rounds with a lot of action are necessarily a bad thing. Again, a lot of blame is being placed on Swat simply because the round ended with a lot of people dying - besides one borg getting overly excited and ganking someone (not Swat's fault), most of the people died because they were stupid in trying to fight the antagonists.

 

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I do not want to muzzle people in their playstyles. I don't think we need to be a server where we say "no, don't fight, because fighting is for nox and goon and always turns out badly and with no RP". That is a gross misrepresentation of the quality of our rounds as a whole - and "action" rounds do foster roleplay as well. Things will always fuck up one time or another - just don't get hung up on those times, accept that they're part of a natural and very difficult to control ecosystem. (Run the same nations round twice, one will be great and the other a complete disaster for no discernable reason; this still won't convince me to stop running nations rounds.)

 

I'm sorry but, if the HoS fell for that, he's the worst head of security I think that's ever been on this server.

Frances I get that fighting does happen on this server, but fighting station wide? With almost NO chance of winning? That's not fighting.

And besides, what Swat SHOULD have done is Ahelp when the crew started rushing the borgs and herself, but instead they chose to gun them all down, I won't deny the crew is pretty dumb for charging a bunch of deathborgs, but regardless, they held a critical area: Medbay. To clone the HoS. A person who I still can't figure out why was cloned, because he can do almost nothing beyond help at a very basic level. Again, I never said we should never fight, but give people a fucking chance, deathborgs are almost unbeatable at this stage, so it doesn't make it fun at all for those who have to fight them. I just don't want this to become a regular trend, where action rounds are apparantly acceptable at every level, for every round. And most of all, I don't want traitor to become the new nuke, where combat is just encouraged and not berated whatsoever.

[Frances]

I'm sorry but, if the HoS fell for that, he's the worst head of security I think that's ever been on this server.

You have CMD. You've just been cloned, and don't really understand any of what's happened, but the station is in chaos. You turn to the first person you see, your long-love/fiancee, who says she needs your help. Now, come to me with actual examples of ridiculous things the HoS did, and I'll take this more seriously, but in the great lines, this is perfectly believable.

 

Frances I get that fighting does happen on this server, but fighting station wide? With almost NO chance of winning? That's not fighting.

The crew had the opportunity to coordinate to mount a counter-offensive, or formulate vast strategic plans. If they decide to run at the borgs single-file to bash at them with a steel pipe, that's the players' fault. They were given a fighting chance, and simply didn't capitalize on it.

 

And besides, what Swat SHOULD have done is Ahelp when the crew started rushing the borgs and herself, but instead they chose to gun them all down

Maybe that should've been ahelped, especially if people tried to play hero and failed horribly. Though that's on the borgs, not Swat.

 

they held a critical area: Medbay. To clone the HoS. A person who I still can't figure out why was cloned, because he can do almost nothing beyond help at a very basic level.

The HoS is a figure of authority, and having them under antag control, without a loyalty implant, can at the least induce confusion. This seems valid to me.

 

Again, I never said we should never fight, but give people a fucking chance, deathborgs are almost unbeatable at this stage, so it doesn't make it fun at all for those who have to fight them. I just don't want this to become a regular trend, where action rounds are apparantly acceptable at every level, for every round. And most of all, I don't want traitor to become the new nuke, where combat is just encouraged and not berated whatsoever.

You rush a borg like an idiot, you get killed like an idiot. We're more harshly critical of "take over the station" antags than other antags because their roleplay ends up dictating the round a lot more (thus being a good antag is then paramount), but I fail to see the fault in the situation presented here at being with anyone other than the players who decided to bumrush borgs which had a clear advantage over them.

Quasi-nuke rounds on autotraitor are quite rare, and so I don't think you're really in a position to say that if we let them happen every autotraitor round will turn into nuke. If anything, these rounds generally end up being better than nuke rounds, because there's a greater effort both from antags who actually have to formulate a plan to execute (and have less equipment to work with), and from the crew that has to react to dynamic and unusual strategies. And if antags play terribly and end up trying to kill everyone in the lamest way possible, that's when we'll jobban them. Prove to me how this was the case here and I might be able to provide a response.

Lastly,

combat is just encouraged and not berated whatsoever.

I feel like this exemplifies a good part of your rationale, and it worries me greatly. Combat should not be "berated" simply for existing, or having been picked over chair-rp or stealth antagging. What you want to berate are actions that are detrimental to RP. Combat, in itself, is not - it simply serves as a situation, a canvas, among others, where users are free to build their own roleplay from.

[Guest]

The first bit isn't needed at all, it's downright insulting, let alone a waste of time.

You've also contradicted yourself, which leads me to believe you are making this up on the spot. You first claim it was done for love, now you claim she didn't love him, so why have him? He serves no purpose whatsoever. Make up your mind.

And I will say, I am massively opposed to the "Goon" way of playing the round, which is exactly your playstyle, which I personally believe is unsuitable for a Heavy RP server, due to the lack of RP involved. If you want to go play super agent, go to Goon. If you want to play the manipulative bitch who hides in the shadows and performs her objectives without so much of a whisper? Sure, I'm all for it.

Bottom line is: Why do it here? Why bother? Goon or Nox seems like the better place for yourself. No offense intended.

 

Telling someone to "get out and go to some other server" just because of a round that was an overall mixed bag and was a bad experience for you isn't a reasonable "bottom line" or solution to give to someone. You're basically telling them to gtfo and not come back because of one round that you didn't enjoy.

Swat's recent antagging has improved. I have not seen any recent instances where he powergamed to shit. I believe he's learned from this round how far he can control certain instances.

I mean, sure, I'm a person with flaws and issues by myself with bad antagging instances as well. But here's my take on this. Telling someone that the "bottom line" for someone is to leave and not play a certain way on our server is just rude and uncalled for.

[Gamegod12]

Telling someone to "get out and go to some other server" just because of a round that was an overall mixed bag and was a bad experience for you isn't a reasonable "bottom line" or solution to give to someone. You're basically telling them to gtfo and not come back because of one round that you didn't enjoy.

Swat's recent antagging has improved. I have not seen any recent instances where he powergamed to shit. I believe he's learned from this round how far he can control certain instances.

I mean, sure, I'm a person with flaws and issues by myself with bad antagging instances as well. But here's my take on this. Telling someone that the "bottom line" for someone is to leave and not play a certain way on our server is just rude and uncalled for.

 

I stand by my opinion on it, this has happened before, and is not just a one round thing. It's happened before and I /believe/ it will happen again. Now I'll admit I've not been playing much these days, and may not have had the "prime" experience you had with Swat, so you'll have to just put up with that, my opinion, of course.

[Guest]

So your entire argument boils down to

I am unrobust and dislike action, thus I want every single danger to my character in the average round pernamently removed.

 

Sorry if I sound rude, but this is essentially the impression I got from what you've written.

The problem here being you not explaining why every single of the 40-60 players we get during peak hour has to abide by your personal vision of what heavy RP is.

Uncontrolled danger to the player is what seperates SS13 roleplay from the average freeform roleplay forum.Other heavy RP servers have removed danger, and that ended in stations filled with multicoloured hair wielding special snowflakes.

[Guest]

Uncontrolled danger to the player is what seperates SS13 roleplay from the average freeform roleplay forum.Other heavy RP servers have removed danger, and that ended in stations filled with multicoloured hair wielding special snowflakes.

 

Point.

[Gamegod12]

So your entire argument boils down to

I am unrobust and dislike action, thus I want every single danger to my character in the average round pernamently removed.

 

Sorry if I sound rude, but this is essentially the impression I got from what you've written.

The problem here being you not explaining why every single of the 40-60 players we get during peak hour has to abide by your personal vision of what heavy RP is.

Uncontrolled danger to the player is what seperates SS13 roleplay from the average freeform roleplay forum.Other heavy RP servers have removed danger, and that ended in stations filled with multicoloured hair wielding special snowflakes.

 

I never said I hated action, nor do I say I am unrobust. Truth is I love both, good action and good robusting that is.

One round, I got into a brawl with an escaped convict, neither of us let up and it ended with the both of us being severely injured to the point of near enough no return. Now if I had died, do you think I'd have made a complaint? No. Because I got myself into that mess, participated in it. I'm not denying that round could have been fun, it just wasn't for me, a person who was instantly ganked the second she stepped into R&D, does that sound fun to you? A person who "likes" action? No. It does not.

For reference, my char Jennifer Hynes is on a bounty list, third highest in fact. This puts her on the target list for most antags, and am I okay with that? Of course I am, she's done some things so she deserves this bounty.

I'm not saying RP can't come out of action, I'm just saying that this was the wrong way of doing it. Hostage taking and kidnapping is FAR more fun for all parties involved in my personal opinion, rather than just a slaughterhouse.

Also, I once robusted an entire sec team with their own cuffs, locked them into lockers, and ran off on my merry day. Could I have killed them? Easily. Did I want to? Nope, because it's a dick move.

So no, I love GOOD action and am quite robust, thanks.

EDIT: I consider this complaint resolved/debunked