[Expired] Unjobban Request - Chaznoodles

[Chaznoodles]

BYOND Key: Chaznoodles.

Total Ban Length: One week.

Banning staff member's Key: CakeIsOssim.

Reason of Ban:

Banned from Head of Security, Warden, Detective, Security Officer, Security Cadet - Failure to adhere to the most basic guidelines when it comes to hostage situations as security. Already have a note regarding this in the past.

(Note regarding this in the past is:

Which happened two months or so ago without an incident since, so unsure why it is relevant. If there are any questions about this, ask.)

Reason for Appeal: Mercenary had been voted for. After two hours, and the first Mercenary team doing absolutely squat all, not interacting with the crew in any shape or form, a second team was called in. I'm unsure of the details, but I came to Science responding to a hostage situation, after Engineering had been sabotaged and bombed. When I rolled up, I saw a Scientist on the floor covered in blood, a pair of fully-armed and lethally-geared Mercenaries, and an IPC Scientist standing in the corner. I'd been disguised as an assistant all shift, playing detective, and nobody had picked up on this, so I decided to keep up the facade in an attempt to end the situation. A Security cyborg is loitering near RnD, so I follow it inside and chill on the opposite side of the window.

I point out to the Mercenaries that I'm just a lowly unarmed assistant, they take no notice of me. I repeatedly point this out, and ask the cyborg to let me inside so I can take the body of the Scientist to Medbay for cloning. The cyborg opens the door and I stroll on in. One of the Mercs points his weapon at me, but lowers his aim and returns to talking to Security who are outside the window. The other mercenary is standing beside him, and neither seem to be taking notice of me, thinking I'm just a poor assistant. They were wrong. I pull my Colt, loaded with rubber rounds, and open fire. The cyborg blitzes in, seeming to have caught wind of what I was up to, and the Security outside open fire with lasers. The situation ends with both Mercs cuffed and disabled, and myself in a critical condition, with the IPC hostage safe.

I eventually get PM'd, saying my actions were 'rambo/playing the hero' and issued a week jobban from all Security roles, for the reason stated above. I feel this ban has been placed wrongly, as the hostage-takers had already killed one hostage to my eyes, and had blown up Engineering, showing that a hostage situation wasn't going to end well and negotiations were pointless. I used the roleplay I had stuck with up to that point, disguised as an assistant, to take down a situation that would have ended in both sides taking massive casualties had I not stepped in, as is typical for Mercenary rounds. This allowed others to continue roleplaying without having their rounds ended. It also added a new facet into the round, one where Mason was a hero and his body would be treated as such, whereas others did not believe so.

Also, I did adhere to the most basic rules when dealing with a hostage situation.

 

We don't negotiate with terrorists.

:^)

But yeah, tl;dr: Roleplayed according to how I'd acted throughout the round, introduced new roleplay, stopped other players from having their rounds cut off. If this jobban is removed, I would also like the note corresponding with it to be removed, as the jobban would have been proven wrong.

[Bokaza]

Well, Chaz, you do tend to be passive agressive. You seem slightly passive agressive right now, especially with that picture of Bush's ugly mug. You aren't necessarily wrong, but I'm just saying you do have a consistent aura of cynicism and playful malice.

I find it slightly amusing that I've personally seen many sec players avoid basic rules of engagment during hostage situations many, many times. More specifically, using dodgy metamechanics to justify why their course of action was the best possible thing to do, despite the fact those things would never work irl, yet somehow get away with it. Now, I also understand why the other dudes likely weren't punished. Not significant bias, that would be a rude assumption, but lack of actual complaintants towards an otherwise dumb, yet normalized behavior. Me being one of those unwilling complainants. However, I can imagine the salt being wrecked through RP instead of robust combat skills can cause. Even if this is only a week ban justified by the player's previous behavior, the reasoning for the ban sets what seems like a wrong premise. The letter of the rules is being followed, but not the spirit. Rather than to twart the antags through aformentioned abuse of meta-intelligence that borders genius, Chaz opted for a risky RP approach to gain the needed advantage and force resolution.

Why was he punished for deviating from a god-awful standard?

[CakeIsOssim]

All of the evidence I had pointed to your going rambo. The time between being aimed at, and attempting to stunglove another merc was very, very short. I had every reason to believe you attempted it while still being aimed at. Your only backup was also a borg, and you still chose to enter the room where you would be outnumbered. Instead of waiting by, not risking your life and well-being, for more backup to arrive, you went in with a plan to take them both on, alone.

Whether or not it was successful is not the point; the point is, it was attempted. I will, however, note that you both died and injured the hostage even more by attempting a forceful takedown. I can't remember if they died or not, but I know they were definitely mortally wounded. Could I have been a little more specific on my ban reasoning? Probably. What you attempted was somewhere between a hasty and planned assault, and the specifics for such I've already stated.

To make a long story short, I personally believed, and still believe, that you were playing hero. The note you previously got, as you've shown, supports this behavior. Two months is an amount of time to consider, which I did, but I concluded that it was not long enough to completely disregard.

 

"..."

 

If I could observe, witness, and catch every single example of someone in security being shit and violating the standards set in place (mostly by Skull, who stated that shitty hostage situation behavior needs to be cracked down on) you can bet they'd probably get security bans, as well. As for your last question, I'm going to assume that is rhetorical unless you tell me otherwise.

[Chaznoodles]

All of the evidence I had pointed to your going rambo. The time between being aimed at, and attempting to stunglove another merc was very, very short. I had every reason to believe you attempted it while still being aimed at. Your only backup was also a borg, and you still chose to enter the room where you would be outnumbered. Instead of waiting by, not risking your life and well-being, for more backup to arrive, you went in with a plan to take them both on, alone.

 

They stopped aiming, turned away, so I took the opportunity. I wasn't being aimed at, why should it matter that the time between it was short?

My backup consisted of a cyborg right outside the door, and the heavily armed Security forces outside the desk window, who were armed with laser weaponry, which can shoot through windows. I had all the backup I could wish for. I never took them on alone, as this testifies. You're welcome to check the logs for the lasers being shot at the mercs from the Security outside the window, and the cyborg taking them down with a stunbaton, alongside my pistol.

 

Whether or not it was successful is not the point; the point is, it was attempted. I will, however, note that you both died and injured the hostage even more by attempting a forceful takedown. I can't remember if they died or not, but I know they were definitely mortally wounded. Could I have been a little more specific on my ban reasoning? Probably. What you attempted was somewhere between a hasty and planned assault, and the specifics for such I've already stated.

 

Both died? Who else died? You'll need to elaborate. As far as I'm aware, no other crew member went into critical, let alone died, as a result of the incident.

 

To make a long story short, I personally believed, and still believe, that you were playing hero. The note you previously got, as you've shown, supports this behavior. Two months is an amount of time to consider, which I did, but I concluded that it was not long enough to completely disregard.

 

I played according to the roleplay I had been doing throughout the entire round. An undercover detective, using his undercover status to shut down a hostage situation before it devolved into a massacre.

[Serveris]

As an officer that was present during this event, let me just say that this entire incident was a massive clusterfuck with next to no planning put together by security as a whole. The officers that arrived realized that Chaz was on-scene, however, his intentions to attempt an assault were not communicated with us or the cyborg at all. We had all the exits to the lab covered, and were standing by for the captain's order before making a move. Lethal and ionic weaponry had been dispensed to prepare for a shootout.

When things flew apart was when Chaz suddenly pulled his firearm and began shooting at the mercenaries with rubber bullets, as he himself confirmed, when the mercenaries were holding their hostage at gunpoint. Again, I'll reiterate, this was not coordinated; we were not even warned he was going to do this until it was already happening.

Realizing that this was most likely going to end in bloodshed, we all rushed in to the lab, hoping to keep the detective from getting himself outright killed along with the hostage. What was originally a methodical and planned approach quickly broke down to, "We need to move now, because people are about to get shot."

I spoke with the cyborg later that shift, ICly, and they confirmed that even they were not aware of the plan, and had to improvise their response as a result of the detective choosing to go weapons free. They were waiting for the mark to proceed just like the rest of us, but at that point, we couldn't afford to hold back. Our hands were tied, and we were forced to abandon the plan we had laid out and act.

[Chaznoodles]

As a note, I had access to the Security channel for the entire incident, and not a single mention of a 'plan' was made over it. Security just congregated outside the RnD window waving weapons in a vaguely unthreatening way. We were already aware that Security comms were not secure, as someone had reported it earlier that they could hear us, so I refrained from contacting anyone on that.

[coolbc2000]

Ahem.

1. You came in with stungloves and tried to stun us with /guns/ out and a hostage right behind one of the Mercs.

2. You shot one of the hostages in your firefight.

3. You and the Hostage died.

4. It would have been a bloodshed if the Borg was not there...

5. You did not heed our Commands when we said that we had a EMP and out hostage was a IPC...

Right.....

[Chaznoodles]

Ahem.

1. You came in with stungloves and tried to stun us with /guns/ out and a hostage right behind one of the Mercs.

2. You shot one of the hostages in your firefight.

3. You and the Hostage died.

4. It would have been a bloodshed if the Borg was not there...

5. You did not heed our Commands when we said that we had a EMP and out hostage was a IPC...

Right.....

 

1. Hostage was in the corner, away from the fighting and behind an object that could not be shot over.

2. Rubber bullets.

3. Hostage was still alive, the IPC.

4. Thankfully I made sure I wasn't fighting alone then, isn't it?

5. I looked in your hands. Neither of you had an EMP out.

[coolbc2000]

Jesus Christ....

1. The hostage /was/ shot as you said in the 2. one... The hostage was on a table.. the right table... In plain view...

2. See 1.

3. D-Did you even see that there were two hostages?

4. W-H- Jesus Christ..

5. Oh well that explains it! We don't have pockets in the game so that is not possible... We don't have bags either... Darn...

[Chaznoodles]

Jesus Christ....

1. The hostage /was/ shot as you said in the 2. one... The hostage was on a table.. the right table... In plain view...

2. See 1.

3. D-Did you even see that there were two hostages?

4. W-H- Jesus Christ..

5. Oh well that explains it! We don't have pockets in the game so that is not possible... We don't have bags either... Darn...

 

That one was dead, as far as I was aware, which is why I entered in the first place, to 'take them to cloning'.

Two hostages, one of whom was already dead, as far as I'm aware.

Don't be a cunt, yo. Keep your passive-aggressiveness out.

[CakeIsOssim]

I'm still not very convinced. You don't need a radio to communicate, there were other officers obviously aware of the situation, and according to Serv, not even your only backup at the time (being the cyborg) knew exactly what you were even going to do, because you didn't tell them. I'm thinking you should just sit and wait out the rest of this ban and maybe consider designing a new method of approach for hostage situations.

And, just as a minor side note, the hindsight approach of "it failed which makes it worse" and "it would have been [this] without [that]" isn't wholly applicable. Maybe from a personal point of view, but not an administrative one.

[Chaznoodles]

I'm still not very convinced. You don't need a radio to communicate, there were other officers obviously aware of the situation, and according to Serv, not even your only backup at the time (being the cyborg) knew exactly what you were even going to do, because you didn't tell them. I'm thinking you should just sit and wait out the rest of this ban and maybe consider designing a new method of approach for hostage situations.

And, just as a minor side note, the hindsight approach of "it failed which makes it worse" and "it would have been [this] without [that]" isn't wholly applicable. Maybe from a personal point of view, but not an administrative one.

 

Yes, because I'm going to make exceedingly vague hand signals in full view of the Mercs. None of the Security present, as far as I was aware, knew gutter, and I wasn't taking the chance of the Mercs knowing it.

Would you rather I just sit back, watch Security blitz in and EVERYONE end up dead anyway?

It's wholly applicable, because we all know that's what happens when hostage situations get dealt with normally, every time.

[Bokaza]

Okay, I pull back what I said. Chaz's approach seems very, very sloppy from the provided context.

I'm unconvinced that trying to rely on rest of security would've cost you your advantage. Even if it is so, your statment seems like handsight at best because you likely had little input on the sec team. Undercover infiltration excluded, the approach makes little sense from IC or OOC perspective.

I'll just fuck off and stop being annoying. And Cake, I wasn't throwing accusation of incompetance, I was saying people, for some reason, don't report a good deal of similar examples. Which means... it's normalized among players. Not ideal, just normal, which makes Chaz stand out.

[coolbc2000]

I mean, I would not call it passive-aggressive, it was pretty aggresive because you seem to have just no idea what happened.

That other hostage was fully healthy, just a bullet in the foot.

[Arzion]

I have a question. What was the name of the robot?

[Chaznoodles]

Okay, I pull back what I said. Chaz's approach seems very, very sloppy from the provided context.

I'm unconvinced that trying to rely on rest of security would've cost you your advantage. Even if it is so, your statment seems like handsight at best because you likely had little input on the sec team. Undercover infiltration excluded, the approach makes little sense from IC or OOC perspective.

I'll just fuck off and stop being annoying. And Cake, I wasn't throwing accusation of incompetance, I was saying people, for some reason, don't report a good deal of similar examples. Which means... it's normalized among players. Not ideal, just normal, which makes Chaz stand out.

 

I did rely on the rest of Security. As said, we knew comms was breached, so it would've alerted the hostage-takers to the situation. Any sort of suspicious activity from me - PDA tapping, whispers - would probably have resulted in me being shot. I believed Security would be competent enough to know when to start shooting, and they were. The approach made sense in the context of the situation.

 

I mean, I would not call it passive-aggressive, it was pretty aggresive because you seem to have just no idea what happened.

That other hostage was fully healthy, just a bullet in the foot.

 

They were lying on the floor, there was blood underneath them, and they didn't say a word. Seemed dead to me.

Possibly MAYA, unsure at this point. Whichever IPC usually plays Science roles.

[TishinaStalker]

Ban expired. Locking and archiving.