Firing pins, the cooler and more /tg/-geared solution to the lockbox problem!

[Guest]

Dear reader, do you hate lockboxes but still want a minor security measure for R&D printing guns in case they aren't going to use them for testing as a non-antagonist?

Say no more, familiar friend, for I present the already existing system in the tg codebase in the form of firing pins.

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/blob/master/code/modules/projectiles/pins.dm

https://www.tgstation13.org/wiki/Research_items#Weapons

Read 'em and enjoy, we can port most of these including the syndicate firing pins as a nuke op/traitor option to be the only one to be able to fire their own weapons, else they explode.

[Ron]

Seems like a good idea. I'd like a firing range dedicated to weapons as well in science, or on the outpost, if it could fit. I'd say add a hacked firing pin or whatever to the traitor uplink.

[Nikov]

This isn't what a firing pin is.

 

 

This is a firing pin. Its a hard, finely-machined metal rod. They are almost always integrated inside the bolt assembly in a manner that cannot be easily disassembled, to such a degree that common soldiers would not be expected to do anything but clean said pin or send it to an armorer to replace it.

I don't care if you put "authorization chips" in, just don't call it a firing pin.

[Guest]

Uh, really? You can field-strip a glock in less than ten seconds with both hands, firing pin and all. Or, if you're this guy, the same time-frame with only one hand.

[Taintedglory]

You can field strip a glock in ten seconds if you train extremely hard for weeks on end to do that specific motion.

Also some guns the firing pin comes out easily, other guns it takes some effort. The s&w m&p .40 caliber is my daily carry gun and you can not easily remove the pin from it. It takes time and effort and specific tools

[Guest]

Either way, I would figure weapons designs in 2458 are made so that maintenance and field-stripping is fairly easy, especially if the scientist producing the weapon has an active interest in weapons research, and thus would know just about as much as a gunsmith by practice. Energy-based arms are a far cry of difference than that of ballistics.

[Ian The Corgi]

I know guns, and Nikov raises a good point, it isnt right. Firing pins are really built in there, especially for advanced super murder lazooorr death cannons, the only way this would make sense would be if you had a safety that only disconnected with the likes of a safety chip, or a safety pin.

[Nanako]

nooooo fuck this

This exact system was something i played with, hated, and left a server because of. The lack of them on aurora is one of the things i loved here.

There is no problem to solve, stop trying to take away freedom

[Redfield5]

Perhaps an ID-lock on firearms could be brought in, with Security personnel and above able to activate a weapon without requiring ID approval. The Security Commander could oversee weapon permits and ID authorisation through a gun database.

That's just my two cents until I disassemble my rifle and post a picture of the firing pin assembly.

[Nanako]

Why would there be ID authorisation of any kind, on a gun you built youself. it defies the point of creativity.

A firing pin definitely makes no sense. It's a machined piece of metal, and you have two high tech lathing machines right there.

Those other servers have firing pins because they're chucklefuck servers, full of minimum rules and low admin staff, where people just 'have fun'. It's needed to stop the griefers.

Aurora is a high RP server, we have dedicated security people who actually enforce IC regulations, and we have a significant administrative staff, there's usually 3-4 people online. This draconian solution is not needed, we don't n eed to child-proof everything.

[Redfield5]

Why would there be ID authorisation of any kind, on a gun you built youself. it defies the point of creativity.

 

Because it sucks to be killed by your own invention, nor is it prudent for public safety to allow non-Security personnel (even the bartender) to be able to operate a firearm on a space station.

On another note, the deviance in creativity can be curbed by asking for permission to operate said weapon in a controlled location.

[Tainavaa]

I don't think that's a very good way of weapon control; inherently controlling guns by design is very restrictive and doesn't serve to solve a rampaging issue (being, scientists with guns.); this is a case of a rotten apple spoiling the bunch. Just, like, throw the apple out. I intend to eat those other apples.

From what I've seen, ghetto guns are much more prominent than research guns. Ghetto guns aren't going to implement these firing pins because, well, they're ghetto. It also entirely defeats the purpose of ghetto guns; something you're able to throw together in lieu of a proper firearm for self defense. I mean I guess you could still pistol whip them, but I don't see why you wouldn't use a crowbar or spear for that. Otherwise, ghetto guns kind of need to be mechanically unrestrictive to serve their purpose. It's a very easily abusable design as is, yes, but forcing firing pins into them I don't believe is the way to go about it for both IC purposes and fundamental purposes.

To wrap things up, it just seems like it's an inefficient and just a plain wrong way of going about things in terms of issues we face with people using weapons to break rules. For science, what the topic is intended for, not only is this an OOC issue but it's one that's well within the moderation/administration's view and control due to its low number as compared to many moons ago. Restricting gameplay for everybody now because someone somewhere "might" do thing is utterly silly in my opinion.

[Guest]

Why would there be ID authorisation of any kind, on a gun you built youself. it defies the point of creativity.

A firing pin definitely makes no sense. It's a machined piece of metal, and you have two high tech lathing machines right there.

Those other servers have firing pins because they're chucklefuck servers, full of minimum rules and low admin staff, where people just 'have fun'. It's needed to stop the griefers.

Aurora is a high RP server, we have dedicated security people who actually enforce IC regulations, and we have a significant administrative staff, there's usually 3-4 people online. This draconian solution is not needed, we don't n eed to child-proof everything.

 

Because I and the rest of the security force are tired of dealing with the same damn problem stemming from a new individual every single day that either doesn't understand what regulations intend to do or just want to break IC rules for """""fun""""". Do you know how we dealt with engineers constantly flooding engineering with phoron because they couldn't figure out how to fill a tank? We made it so that ejecting a filled tank with the canister valve still open would auto-close the valve as a dummy safety, so that the only time phoron would get released if it was released neglectfully or intentionally, not as a product of being a newbie. We effectively "childproofed" that facet of engineering, Nanako, if we're going to whinge using your tone and logic. It was a giant flaw in design that could not be overlooked with a simple excuse that the problem lied on the individual using the device and not the fact that the device working the way it does was a problem itself.

This is why code changes happen, so that the game is actually bearable to play. I don't think anyone remembers 2011 poly acid and chloral.

We no longer have that existent safety net of trust between regulars. Do you really think players trust each other, seriously? We get a complaint every week and it's filled with wanton shitflinging and vitriolic cancerous whining and arguing.

There has not been trust in the playerbase since before Skull first took his leave of the playerbase to be drafted, back when we had around 30-40 or so regulars that joked, laughed and organized in-house RP scenarios with each other. Can you believe that extended was the most common voted game mode, and the challenge was to see how long the round could go? We'd make records of 8 hour long rounds. I even think we had an extended round that lasted 3 days. We didn't even have the 2 hour hardcoded limit of when you could call for a crew transfer, you could call it at any time.

A lot happened during that period of time and the server has not been the same.

Science has several methods of occupying themselves without having to go the route of producing guns and packing heat wherever they travel in the science department or outside of it. You want to do that? Fine, but now you can't use them unless...

1.) You're within the confines of a test-range. The intended area where you should be doing weapons research and testing. Wow so hard to do.

2.) You're loyalty implanted.

3.) You're a traitor who has an emag/box of illicit electronic firing pins.

I don't see anything that's remotely inhibiting about following the intended procedures of utilizing experimental small arms weaponry within their proper areas, test-range or bust. And this wouldn't limit traitors because they could easily get a firing pin from their uplink and call it a day.

But whatever, Nanako, you can whine about this being babying the playerbase when this is just a suggestion to enable better science play. You do you.

[Dreamix]

Why would there be ID authorisation of any kind, on a gun you built youself. it defies the point of creativity.

A firing pin definitely makes no sense. It's a machined piece of metal, and you have two high tech lathing machines right there.

No. That's just not how it works. Do you really honestly think every scientist is a gunsmith? This "high tech lathing machine" is just a 3D printer. You can't even do anything outside of the database, you're just producing whatever NT researched first. You didn't build it yourself, not even close.

Also, do you think that fucking around with weapons is "creativity" or something? That it's real research? If all scientists just want to powergame research (Remember we have guides for maxing out research as fast as possible, including illegal technology. That's the real babysitting and holding players' hands, not this suggestion.) and do "important weapons research" that's just shooting at a monkey with a laser gatling gun, then scientists really need their shit fixed.

 

Science has several methods of occupying themselves without having to go the route of producing guns and packing heat wherever they travel in the science department or outside of it. You want to do that? Fine, but now you can't use them unless...

1.) You're within the confines of a test-range. The intended area where you should be doing weapons research and testing. Wow so hard to do.

2.) You're loyalty implanted.

3.) You're a traitor who has an emag/box of illicit electronic firing pins.

And the most important thing you forgot:

4.) You are a normal scientist who spends mere 30 seconds of his 2-hour shift to quickly write a "reason" for carrying weapons outside of research and leaves a signature on the paper form. Just like you are supposed to do. Someone tell me, how the fuck does this inhibit creativity or something. You can fuck around with weapons if a warden or a head of staff trusts you enough to let you unlock it or something. This eliminates chucklefucks from the play, if you're shitty and no one trusts you, weapons stay in the firing range.

Of course, I'm assuming that these firing pins can be modified or unlocked by heads and the warden. Or a warden can actually control station's armoury, and scientists can "borrow" one of his "free to fire everywhere" pins (assuming he might have two or three).

And don't even get me started on the topic of illegal research being easy and effortless. You can literally join a round that's already an hour long, walk into R&D and just grab all the guns from the protolathe because some scientist just used an easy "guns-in-5mins" guide to raise all levels to max.

And no, mining is not a requirement, fuck off all of you. There's usually someone in mining, a random miner or at least a borg. Mining is also an incredibly dumbed down job. All it takes is just setting up the drills and turning them on. That's like, five minutes. Then, you get a coffee, come back, and voila! You're rich. And a miner just cannot fuck off at this point. All materials are rushed to research, and refusing to do so results in being memed to death by scientists because "impurtant scienc" that they're doing every round.

Back in the old-code, mining was an interesting job. Drills were (AFAIK) useless. You had to mine manually, time and prioritisation was really important. You could either mine coal for half an hour like a proper newbie, or run around getting important minerals like a pro, getting reasonable amounts of everything.

[Nanako]

Because I and the rest of the security force are tired of dealing with the same damn problem stemming from a new individual every single day that either doesn't understand what regulations intend to do or just want to break IC rules for """""fun""""".

 

You get the same problem with sec officers going rogue, or griefing chemists drugging themselves and feeding patient acid.

We reduced the first problem with a system that addresses it at its source - the players. Not by nerfing gameplay mechanics.

The second problem is something we deal with, usually a CMO will fire them, or an admin will handle them. Thats just a fact of life. You don't give up freedom to gain security

 

Do you know how we dealt with engineers constantly flooding engineering with phoron because they couldn't figure out how to fill a tank? We made it so that ejecting a filled tank with the canister valve still open would auto-close the valve as a dummy safety,

 

That's a logical and very small change which harms nobody, literally one line of code which takes away no freedoms. People are still quite free to open the valve on a tank and release it, or even to turn on just three pumps and flood the entire station with phoron. Literally.

We have a way for a player to grief the entire station in one minute and under ten clicks. And yet we don't have a problem. We entrust admins to handle that, and they do.

 

A lot happened during that period of time and the server has not been the same.

Nostalgia seems fun, things change over time. But if you're arguing here that the playerbase isn't trustworthy, then it should be handled the same way it's handled for security. Add some form of whitelisting. Don't implement a hamfisted draconian measure that impacts good players as much as the bad

 

I don't see anything that's remotely inhibiting about following the intended procedures of utilizing experimental small arms weaponry within their proper areas, test-range or bust. And this wouldn't limit traitors because they could easily get a firing pin from their uplink and call it a day.

Well we don't even have a firing test range, but that aside, i've seen great fun with scientists testing weapons in various parts of that department, or using them to contain slime outbreaks, and sometimes even defending themselves.

And remember that all of these rules go out of the window with antags. You want to make science antags unable to have weapons unless they're specifically traitor, which is only one of several types? That's just silly.

It's a gameplay standard that every department can produce weaponry, so that antags have a reasonable chance of getting the tools they need to carry out their plans. Cargo can order guns, security has the armoury, medical has the wondrous possibilities of chemistry and surgical tools, and science has the most toys of all. The only problem here is that engineering is relatively lacking in weapons, alberyk has been fixing that lately with the introduction of craftable guns.

 

But whatever, Nanako, you can whine about this being babying the playerbase when this is just a suggestion to enable better science play.

 

This is a complete nonsequitur, it has about as much sense as using 'If you do X then the terrorists win' in a serious debate.

Restricting things is not enabling. You will not enable better science play.

Adding a test range would enable things, sure, but not restricting them to usage there.

If you're really tired of this problem, then play research director. Monitor your department. It's the job of a department head to prevent abuse by their underlings. I handle abusive chemists when i'm CMO. It comes with the job

[Nanako]

This "high tech lathing machine" is just a 3D printer.

 

Correct. And you know what a printer does?

IT creates whatever designs you upload to it.

Your printer doesn't ask you if you're going to use this sharp shape to stab someone, or send a warning to the police that you're printing things that look like gun parts. It's a machine that does exactly what you want it to. It's a dumb tool that does its job, and thanks to the wonders of futuristic technology, our machines do things very well, and a scientist with the appropriate training is, indeed, a gunsmith.

 

You can't even do anything outside of the database, you're just producing whatever NT researched first. You didn't build it yourself, not even close.

 

No, this is a gameplay abstraction. The limited list of things you can build is just how the mechanics work because that's the way the system was designed. And Lordfowl is working to change that, didn't you see his plans about modular weaponry? In future you'll be able to print individual gun parts, casings, lenses, etc, and assemble the custom weapon of your dreams.

Everything points to the fact that you are, ICly, creating things. New things, from scratch, exactly how you design them. And mechanics are moving closer to that reality. You have a misconception here.

 

Also, do you think that fucking around with weapons is "creativity" or something? That it's real research? If all scientists just want to powergame research and do "important weapons research" that's just shooting at a monkey with a laser gatling gun, then scientists really need their shit fixed.

 

Research is the search for knowledge, all knowledge. The effects of radiation weapons on vaurca physiology are just as valid as a cure for cancer, or a new method of processing phoron. Nothing is discounted, and the regulations exist to ensure science is done in a reasonably safe manner. Enforcing those regulations is the job of security, not the game engine.

 

And don't even get me started on the topic of illegal research being easy and effortless. You can literally join a round that's already an hour long, walk into R&D and just grab all the guns from the protolathe because some scientist just used an easy "guns-in-5mins" guide to raise all levels to max.

Hey, remember telescience? It was too easy, developers changed it. Problem solved.

If things are too easy, then we may change mechanics to alter things. Research systems were brought up at the recent development meeting and the team has some sort of vision for the future, though it's on the backburner while we work on other projects right now. Nobody brought up limiting access to weapons at all, as far as i'm aware that's not something we're considering

I'd like to see improvements to mining too, but that's another conversation and offtopic for this thread

[VileFault]

Hello again.

First, I agree with Ian et al. that "firing pin" would need to become "authorization chip" or something like that. Now about Nanako's points:

I already tried to explain how it makes sense lorewise. We don't invent dozens of devices each shift - we merely prompt the machine to reinvent extant (if cutting-edge) designs. Ok beyond that - I agree with you that, on principle, enforcing regulations with inflexible game mechanics is bad for RP. Then again - I recently had my first shift as RD. Despite my urgings, I saw three people outside R&D with energy guns, stun revolvers, and the like. Not for testing, mind you. It is fine with me OOCly if they want to take the guns for a specific purpose and be rogue, but they don't even seem to understand that it is a bad thing! I talked to them about the hi-tech weaponry they are carrying around with no field experience, and they acted surprised that I even thought it was a problem. That is a problem.

Possible Solution:

However, looking at the discussion of "child-proofing" canisters, there may be a solution that would be acceptable to both parties here. Consider having these "authorization chips," but making them removable with basic tools and IC science or electronics knowledge. That way, new people don't make important mistakes by accident, but more competent players looking to do something interesting have the opportunity (just as they could open Phoron canisters to the air for nefarious purposes). Also, you could shoot them a message that impresses upon them the illegality of their actions, for example "You carefully extract the [Weapon Name]'s authorization chip from its supposedly 'tamper proof' casing." That way everyone knows that it is against regulations, new players don't accidentally fuck up, and old players still have the freedom Nanako wants! So, what do you think?

[Nanako]

I already tried to explain how it makes sense lorewise. We don't invent dozens of devices each shift - we merely prompt the machine to reinvent extant (if cutting-edge) designs.

 

No, we do invent things the same every shift. The same way we build up the medicine stores and start up the engine every shift, things don't carry over, including knowledge. It's the same reason your character isn't allowed to remember what changelings are, or to be jaded about AIs constantly malfunctioning, or to know that the syndicate exists.

[VileFault]

Fine, I think it could be taken either way. The lore is only peripherally of interest to me. While I have you here, however, what do you think of the main point I put forward?

[Nanako]

Ehhh, i still don't like it. It's a compromise that doesn't really make anyone happy

We have plenty of IC and OOC enforcement to take care of this already. Security can arrest anyone visibly carrying weapons outside of science, admins can deal with anyone who suddenly decides to start gunning down security. I don't see any problem here to solve, and i don't think any mechanical means would be a good solution if there were a problem.