[Accepted] Unban Request for Jetnissan II

[Jetniss]

BYOND Key: Jetnissan

Total Ban Length: 10080

Banning staff member's Key: datberry

Reason of Ban:

Reason: After having had his sword taken forcefully by the RD, during code red. they pushed them, took an SMG, and returned fire when the RD attempted to taze them. escalating to lethals due to an issue he partially started. do make an unban appeal if you wish to continue arguing this..

Reason for Appeal:

Chat Logs of my discussion with DatBerry.

I believe that our entire conversation reasons why I shouldn't be banned.

 

 

 

For those who don't have time or interest to read the logs, I'll say this:

I was banned because an admin (their rank really doesn't matter, please don't waste time correcting moderator, admin, or any of that) sifted through details of a completely IC occurrence after it was over and grabbed whatever details they could in order to ban me. No, I don't think I'm being targeted, it is likely the person involved (player of Winoa Summers) requested they investigate and lynch me, and so the admin took it upon themselves to make sure it happened (Or maybe Datberry is Winoa, which would explain a whole lot more and call into question the conduct of a server who allows the people directly involved in the situation with a stake in it to persecute).

A bunch of details were used to make me bannable in any way they could. Information was cherry picked to make me look bad-- The narrative pretty much looks like "He tried to murderbone a head of staff."

What actually happened was, Head of staffed attacked me while I was fully armed, and I did all I could to disarm them and keep things from escalating whilst ensuring my own well being, my own safety.

I made this clear in my conversation with Datberry, and Datberry responded that I was being tased (even though a stun revolver looks like a lethal weapon, both IC and OOC, and we all have played SS13 long enough to know that once you're stunned you're fucked. People can bomb you, take your weapons from you, beat you to death, lock you up, surgery you, do WHATEVER they want. Being stunned is much more dangerous than being shot even 3 times. You can at least survive, fight back, or hide with 3 bullets in you. You are fucked if you are stunned), and completely ignored my reasoning using hindsight to ban me instead of acknowledging calls made -in the moment-.

I guess we're expected to fully analyze a situation and have 100% awareness of everything going on in the middle of combat. This whole thing to me, seems as dumb as this hypothetical situation should sound to you:

You're expected to know that you shouldn't turn on your lighter to light your path through maintenance because the plasma in the air is too thick because someone misplaced a pipe and lit the Head of Security on fire and killed them while you were running away from some pirate who was shooting at you. But it's your fault because you should know that and the head of Security shouldn't have known that because you shouldn't have tried to set him on fire.

[Jetniss]

I do want to say that the ban might've just been a quick fix because they were delaying the round to talk to me. I am okay with that, but I am miffed that I have to wait until tomorrow to play when I might not have that same freedom tomorrow. I'm missing out on rounds during my time to actually play, which is just my problem and all but meh.

I'm not salty I was banned, and I don't resent anyone. I just want that to be clear. I do understand that particular reasoning for a ban, and I just want it corrected (and possibly discussed more thoroughly). I have made another thread about conduct where said discussions can take place.

[DatBerry]

There's a lot factors that went into this even though it was supposed to be a simple incident.

The incident goes as follow as I've understood:

You had found a sword, the sword was obviously serious stuff as you've yourself dropped it, someone walks in, tells you you don't need a sword in code red, flashed you and took the sword into Research, or took the sword to research and flashed you when you tried to take it back, holds little difference to the gravity of what you did next.

Because they had flashed you once, ONCE, you pushed them over and took a lethal weapon and bagged it. after stealing a weapon needlessly, this is outside a self defense clause and more of a retaliation on your own. The RD then attempted to taze you because you just stole a lethal weapon, you return by aiming the gun at the RD, which in this case will result in the RD getting shot no matter what they do, they simply cant react in time, so an excuse of "i simply aimed and he got himself shot" is not valid.

you attempted to take a sword back from science, that was taken by the RD that you didnt recongnize, but failing to examine people is on you, if you had time to run back in to get your sword you had time to shift click them, then you try to push them because they flashed you, this is fine, but then you take a lethal weapon from them, again; self defense clause is not valid, your life was not in danger, they simply took your toy away, now you've esclasted to stealing a lethal weapon (from a head of staff too, but you didnt know that). By now its still ok OOCly to some degree. The RD tazes you as you took a lethal weapon and you are in the wrong, they shoot you with a less than lethal weapon, and you return with a lethal weapon. This is not ok, you've mostly caused this issue on your own thinking you were defending yourself but took it way overboard.

Now that's the incident itself, your conduct in replies, mainly obscuring key details and your previous notes and bans and finally how you regarded non lethal weapons to be on a higher level of escalation than lethals lead me to deal a week ban.

Firstly, you did not mention the sword at all, and tried to circle around the fact you were toying with a glowing cult sword by saying "your character found an item of interest" and not including the fact that you tresspassed into science.

You have a note about about stealing weapons from an antag and aiming at them, and subsequently fired on them due to aim mode, and a much recent ban was a full week, your notes record is long and filled with basic rule violations like beating yourself.

Lastly, the thing you mentioned about lethals and non lethals, that train of thought is something that belongs on lower RP servers, you can not justify blasting someone with a shotgun because they pulled a stunprod in a fight you helped escalate.

That was my reasoning for the ban and its duration. I would be happy to lift this ban as soon as you understood why using lethals here is bad. You sent the RD to medical with broken bones, shrapnel and internal bleeding because they were a bit rough with stopping you from touching swords.

[Jetniss]

And you're still nitpicking in the worst ways!

 

You had found a sword, the sword was obviously serious stuff as you've yourself dropped it, someone walks in, tells you you don't need a sword in code red, flashed you and took the sword into Research, or took the sword to research and flashed you when you tried to take it back, holds little difference to the gravity of what you did next.

Fine. But the details that matters is: At some point you insinuated I got it out of R&D, I didn't.

 

Because they had flashed you once, ONCE,

ONCE is more times than necessary, especially as someone who is completely innocent and isn't doing anything remotely aggressive. There was NO REASON to flash, this was an ATTACK. I did not do ANYTHING but say "HEY." They FLASHED ME, UNPROVOKED, and a FLASH is a KNOCKDOWN. A FLASH is DEATH or INSTANT SLAVERY on SS13. Stop acting like it's not. It is a Security's GO-TO WEAPON to someone without eye protection. It is the very tool that secures Security's very power over you the instant you start to recover.

 

you pushed them over and took a lethal weapon and bagged it. after stealing a weapon needlessly, this is outside a self defense clause and more of a retaliation on your own.

 

This is SELF DEFENSE. If you want me to wait until they actually shoot me to "defend myself" then there is no defending myself, cause at this point I'm dead. Or dying. They flashed me with a gun in their hand. They are an AGGRESSOR threatening my safety and well-being, and I removed their means of killing me AS SOON AS POSSIBLE following their immediate aggression. I didn't chop their head off, I didn't bludgeon them to death, I didn't shoot them, I disarmed them and removed the threat. Immediately. They are not security. They are not in uniform. They are an aggressive unmarked individual.

 

The RD then attempted to taze you because you just stole a lethal weapon, you return by aiming the gun at the RD, which in this case will result in the RD getting shot no matter what they do, they simply cant react in time, so an excuse of "i simply aimed and he got himself shot" is not valid.

 

You know what they can do? Not shoot. Not walk. Not do anything and just fucking talk. And we can "discuss" what occurred and de-escalate the situation. I didn't have to AIM. I clearly took the time to click aim before I clicked them. I didn't have time to change any other options and allow them to walk, but all they had to fucking do was not move and breathe a minute. They had options. The whole point of me aiming was to STOP THEM from doing what they were doing so we could talk. Prior to this, they were MENACING me.

 

you attempted to take a sword back from science, that was taken by the RD that you didnt recongnize,

 

No, I didn't. I addressed the person who took the object from me. They took the item without a single RP, without saying a single thing to me. They could've chopped my head off. I said "HEY!" because they caught me off guard, and before I could finish typing my next line they flashed me. That's why you say "why the fu0" because I missed the "-" key the instant I heard the flash sound. I didn't go to grab the sword, I didn't break into or go into Science. I don't have access to science. This all occurred in the hall between Science and the holodeck, and I turned around and typed, moved two two tiles and got flashed.

 

but failing to examine people is on you,

Bullshit excuse. and you should be ashamed of yourself for even saying that shit. "Failing to examine people is on you,," so I should die as I try to examine someone, then read their text and assess who they are while they're fucking shooting and attacking me? Bullshit. That is complete bullshit. I don't know why you're defending this person so hard-- or maybe you're defending your action hella hard, but that is insanely bullshit. No one is held to that standard. I don't expect that from anyone, especially not the average player. A whitelisted person maybe, who's held to higher standards by default. But this? Again, bullshit.

 

if you had time to run back in to get your sword you had time to shift click them,

No one ran to grab anything, no one had time to do that. I didn't even have time to finish typing before they fucking flashed me.

 

then you try to push them because they flashed you, this is fine, but then you take a lethal weapon from them, again; self defense clause is not valid, your life was not in danger, they simply took your toy away, now you've esclasted to stealing a lethal weapon (from a head of staff too, but you didnt know that).

Thank you for acknowledging that their identity was not clear from a glance. Onto the rest: I argue that it's self-defense. Are you saying I can't disarm someone of their shotgun if they punch me? They clearly had intents to hurt me, and I removed their biggest advantage and item in hurting me. They attacked me. Hostility is now ON. And I did nothing lethal to them.

 

By now its still ok OOCly to some degree. The RD tazes you as you took a lethal weapon and you are in the wrong, they shoot you with a less than lethal weapon,

This is bullshit. I'm being shot. This is aggression. You can't measure conflict like this. It doesn't make sense.

On one hand, it is just a stun. But a stun leads to SO MUCH MORE. ALWAYS. It's either handcuffs or beating to death or hanging or slicing or debraining-- it leads to MORE. Especially when this person had lethal weapons on them, in their HAND. They weren't walking around with stun weapons, they were walking around with LETHALS ready to kill. They had a stun as BACKUP. And after I was stunned they were screaming "KILL HIM." Aside from that, stun or not, they are ATTACKING. How do you measure what is good self-defense. You're telling me if I have a bomb on me and they are shooting me, I can't throw the bomb they know I have- and I have to run and toil away to find a stun weapon to meet them with equal force? That's completely idiotic.

Edit:

I understand "bomb" is probably not the best and helpful example for my situation, but it is an honest hypothetical to understand the logic I'm faced with. Am I really expected to find means to meet the person with equal force or just become their bitch? Like, if I'm the cook and all I have is a knife with me, and someone comes in with a stun gun to fuck me up, am I not allowed to slice them because they don't have lethals they just got stuns? Come on!

And how am I being scrutinized for these minute details AFTER everything is settled and not the RD for blatantly saying "KILL HIM" showing their intent in all this? If I never disarmed them and I got shot, how would this look? I would've just been sitting in the dead chat and you guys probably would've ignored it like "oh she thought he was cult" or maybe a slap on the wrist or something. Come on now.

 

and you return with a lethal weapon. This is not ok, you've mostly caused this issue on your own thinking you were defending yourself but took it way overboard.

 

How is ANY of this overboard? Because I used lethals? THAT THEY HAD? So disarming someone of a lethal weapon, and then pointing it at them and basically telling them "DONT MOVE" through body language with the same weapon THEY WERE CARRYING that they fully know the CAPABILITIES OF after they already shot at you several times is overboard? They SHOT ME. They got aimed at, and they still SHOT ME knowing that I will automatically shoot back at them because that's what the whole function is. How is ANY OF THIS OVERBOARD. You're basically telling me that it's my duty to sit there and get shot the fuck up.

The following Spoiler is unrelated and is mostly venting

 

I just got banned for self harm after being imprisoned as an antag, but now you're telling me I shouldn't defend myself and preserve my own life-- and did this fucking RD even get told a PM about blindly running head-first into someone who has a gun pointed at them, cause that seems fucking suicidal to me.

 

 

Now that's the incident itself, your conduct in replies, mainly obscuring key details and your previous notes and bans and finally how you regarded non lethal weapons to be on a higher level of escalation than lethals lead me to deal a week ban.

 

I didn't obscure key details. If you're referring to the identity of the object, I didn't mention it because the object shouldn't fucking matter. I don't know what the complaint that lead you to me was about, but when you addressed me, the situation was about why I shot the RD. Which was simple-- they attacked me, and I disarmed them and tried to hold them up. Those are all the key details. And it's really one-sided for you to say that taking the object from me and flashing me is a perfectly acceptable conduct, but disarming the person who flashed and almost-stole from me isn't.

Edit:

One of the first things you say in your response is that none of that stuff prior is even relevant! Now you're calling it a key detail.

 

Firstly, you did not mention the sword at all, and tried to circle around the fact you were toying with a glowing cult sword by saying "your character found an item of interest" and not including the fact that you tresspassed into science.

 

I was never in science. I didn't trespass. I never took a step into science. This all occurred in the hallway. I don't know who told you it was science, but they fucking lied.

 

You have a note about about stealing weapons from an antag and aiming at them, and subsequently fired on them due to aim mode, and a much recent ban was a full week, your notes record is long and filled with basic rule violations like beating yourself.

... I... Never did any of that? How do I have a note about that? I've never interacted with an antagonist as a non-antagonist. I'm always in atmos or in the shafts mining. I might be mistaken and my memory might just be really horrible, but I honestly need my memory jogged if that's the case. I don't recall this interaction in the slightest, and my warnings all have to do with self-harm.

 

Lastly, the thing you mentioned about lethals and non lethals, that train of thought is something that belongs on lower RP servers, you can not justify blasting someone with a shotgun because they pulled a stunprod in a fight you helped escalate.

I'm not sure what you're talking about, if this is just an analogy or something cool-- but this was not a stun prod. This was a stun revolver. A weapon that looks like a lethal weapon, and STILL results in so much worse. And you keep ignoring that and it's very upsetting. And again, I didn't shoot anyone, they shot themselves. You might not agree with aim-mode, but that's the fucking point of the function. To get the other person to stop and actually assess their situation. I was trying to create space to talk. And they decided to go balls out, not caring about their own health and take bullets in an attempt to shoot me. That's not my fault. They attacked me 4 times before I pointed the gun at them. They flashed me. They shot at me three times, and then I aimed at them to get them to stop. And they kept going. Just like I allegedly had time to examine them(except I didn't, because I was flashed in the middle of typing and I was never in science and never grabbed the sword or even saw it after they took it), they had time to stop and type at me or try to aim back or do something other than shoot and get themselves reflex-scoped.

 

That was my reasoning for the ban and its duration. I would be happy to lift this ban as soon as you understood why using lethals here is bad. You sent the RD to medical with broken bones, shrapnel and internal bleeding because they were a bit rough with stopping you from touching swords.

 

I know the problem with lethals. But I do not accept any of what you're saying here. I wasn't the one who printed a gun. I wasn't the one walking around with the gun. I was walking down a hallway. A neutral hallway. I subsequently, in the midst of RPing, had the item that my RP revolved around in that instance removed without roleplay, stashed away. When I tried to talk to the person, I was attacked with a flash-- a item used to subdue someone instantly. I cut my next line of text short. Then rushed in to disarm them because I saw a GUN, and I didn't want to get fucking shot. I got the gun from them, and instead of RPing or talking, the person insisted on continuing VERB. I responded with equal VERB. They SHOT AT ME, and I took the same weapon that THEY PRINTED, as NON SECURITY, and WITHOUT UNIFORM, and POINTED IT AT THEM. Because this purple dress crazed woman is ATTACKING ME in the HALLWAY and is a WALKING ARSENAL. And I refuse to go with the idea that I was in the wrong for responding to what could've been an over-armed Antagonist. Especially when all my actions were to DISARM and to REMOVE THE POWER the AGGRESSOR had over me. They were shot, yes. BECAUSE THEY DID NOT WANT TO GO WITH THE SITUATION OR RP WITH SOMEONE WHO REMOVED SOME OF THEIR POWER. Lethals were used, yes. BECAUSE THEY MADE THE LETHALS AND CARRIED IT WITH THEM.

Everything you're blaming me for, and saying I did wrong, is literally by fault of the RD. And if I have to submit to that shit to get unbanned, fuck that.

[Faris]

So I'm partial to agree here with Jetniss in most things. The Director could've handled this better instead of just flashing Jetniss. During a code red where things are spiraling out of control, I'd have assumed malicious intent due to how aggressive the Director was. The fact they had an SMG out which Jetniss managed to disarm and take away rather than risk being shot, shows this was more of a self preservation thing. Though I'd say if you use the aim mechanic, then you fully intend to shoot them should they move or do anything, even if it's not a hostile thing, but I suppose time constraints with the whole situation may not have permitted you to edit the settings.

Though there is one piece of log I find interesting and I need clarification with as it does show a part that may have been done improperly. I noticed in the first few pictures where the aim was lowered due to the target being too far away but the lock was required. Did you chase them down?

[DatBerry]

There are two possible situations, and they both show that the RD didnt intent to just kill you.

A: They flashed you and took the sword inside science.

B: They dragged the sword to science and flashed you when you tried to get it back.

If they wanted you dead or anything they would've flashed more than once, they had the upperhand, they could've shot you from afar, If they wanted to kidnap you they wouldn't have walken away and took the sword to science first, nor would they wait for you to try and tresspass.

Now if they had started flashing you out of the blue more than once i would understand your reasoning, but the person's intent should've been clear in both situations. As I told you in PMs context matter, and if you get flashed by someone because you are blocking a doorway you can't use self defense as an excuse to throw them disposal, even if it was excessive.

[Jetniss]

There are two possible situations, and they both show that the RD didnt intent to just kill you.

A: They flashed you and took the sword inside science.

B: They dragged the sword to science and flashed you when you tried to get it back.

If they wanted you dead or anything they would've flashed more than once, they had the upperhand, they could've shot you from afar, If they wanted to kidnap you they wouldn't have walken away and took the sword to science first, nor would they wait for you to try and tresspass.

Now if they had started flashing you out of the blue more than once i would understand your reasoning, but the person's intent should've been clear in both situations. As I told you in PMs context matter, and if you get flashed by someone because you are blocking a doorway you can't use self defense as an excuse to throw them disposal, even if it was excessive.

 

C: They grabbed the sword- threw it into science (none of which I saw because it happened so fast and instant), then I said "HEY!" then they flashed me and I cut my next say short "Why the fu0."

I don't know how much charge their flash had, but they resorted to a stun gun leading me to believe their flash was out of charge or reloading or something. I am still under attack-- you are presenting a situation in which they would've easily won, and I wouldn't even get the chance to fight back to disarm them, cause I'd be dead at this point. Then this wouldn't be a matter of me defending myself, this would've been a matter of me dying and sitting in the dead-lobby until the round restart (because I would've considered the whole situation just some IC occurrence and went with it-- if I reported it, this would've been a complaint on why this person is an RD and allowed to do that)

I really don't understand why these details are being nitpicked to this extent! If a changeling was choking me I had no right to fight him with lethal means to try and escape? Even though we all know that at the end of a choke is a absorption that kills? Or would it just be OK cause he's an antag-- and that made my lethality valid. Death- imprisonment- anything happens WAY too quick to allow ANY of this hostility to go unanswered. I've been shot by security for stepping out of airlocks. That's it. I popped out of Airlocks and I've been shot. And no admin came to my aid. On any of this. I still hold in the back of my mind the round where I walked around, got to RP with one guy and subdued him and was RPing with him-- then some HoS comes out and starts shooting me without a word-- five minutes later they're fully armed and fully armored, blow themselves up chasing me, and I end up locked to a bed for 2 hours before I get debrained and borged. I once got flashed and put in a cell for an entire round for walking past police tape. Someone walks up to me and flashes me, I disarm them and use their weapon on them defensively, and I have to go to the ends of the earth to prove that it was self-defense.

Nevermind the fact that I'm being scrutinized for the lethality of the weapon that they made and carried openly that lead to this whole thing!

 

Though there is one piece of log I find interesting and I need clarification with as it does show a part that may have been done improperly. I noticed in the first few pictures where the aim was lowered due to the target being too far away but the lock was required. Did you chase them down?

 

No. The part where my aim lowered-- I was moving south down the hallway near the dormitory on the main level. I put distance between us and then she ran back. I went toward the bathroom, toward the library with intentions to get to medical/security, and then she came back around again near me so I aimed at her. It was at this time she screamed in the radio that I'm a mutineer, and proceeded to shoot at me again. I didn't even notice she said that because she was shooting again instead of talking and RPing TO ME when I still haven't shot anything manually. Then Nathan Corvo and Blitzkrieg came in, and then they started shooting at me instead of her and I just /wrist'd inside as the stun prod put me on my ass.

I wasn't trying to kill anyone and I didn't give chase. Once we got this far in, after I was shot at, after I had the gun out, I wanted space t talk, but this person only made space to talk after she ran away, just to tell the station I was a mutineer (something I still didn't have time to read because she came right back after and its the heat of battle). You could say that I didn't have to aim at her when she came back-- but then that opens the door for her to get stun shots on me that would make me drop and then she can take the gun and shoot me which she had clear intents to do (in hindsight when you read the logs and see she says "KILL HIM" and all of that-- (just using hindsight nitpicky details because that's what's being used on me).

[Azande]

I'm not reading most of this, I've read the first few posts, and skimmed the rest.

I played Winoa. No, I did not ask through ahelp, for people to lynch you, in fact - I have my own complaint in regards to Datberry posted right now, and it's hilarious you'd suggest that a lynching was the case (admins and I do not get along 100%, and the odds of some sort of meta friendship influencing anything in my favour is hilarious) , in fact, when I ahelped, my intention was not even for you to end up banned.

Now, my side in very brief points.

I exit science, you are standing outside with a cult blade on the ground beside you.

I pickup the sword, see the culty affects of it, and throw it into science (I can't remember if I had to re-open the doors, or if they were still open from my exit).

At this point, you said "HEY" and ran into science's doorway, I flashed you before you could enter science completely, and dragged you out. I explained you didn't need a sword on code red. I had no further intent to hurt you, or have you arrested, I was simply removing a weapon from the hallway during code red, which holding would probably have gotten you shot by security.

I walked down the hall, and opened up my PDA, then I see that you've pushed me over, this would have been fine - angry employee pushes over boss, but at the time I was carrying an SMG that the Head of Security had forgotten to grab when she grabbed her first one from RnD, and you picked this fully loaded SMG up.

You tried to run, so when I got up, I unloaded a stun revolver at you, this was DEFINITELY an oversight of mine, because I did not connect the dots that the SMG was going to be used against me in retaliation like I should have. Does this mean a non-antag should have engaged me with a purely lethal weapon? Not in my opinion.

It was at this point I screamed for aid, you CONTINUED shooting, and I do NOT, at ANY POINT, remember being aimed at. If admins have definite pictures and/or logs of me being aimed at, then obviously I must have been, but I was not aware of it at the time.

It is to my memory, that you fired of your own will at me again and again, while I was standing still in shock from being fired upon. I had stopped moving, stopped chasing, you continued to fire.

You do not fire a lethal SMG at someone without intent to kill, a single bullet can cause lethal injuries.

After this, I ahelped and asked if you were an antag, and Datberry said he would investigate.

[Azande]

And yes, after my backup arrived, I did yell to kill you, I assumed you were one of the mutineers and you had just sent me to my grave with a full load of SMG bullets. I spent the rest of the round on a surgery table changing hands.

[DatBerry]

I have to apologize for looking at the whole issue as a whole, and not focusing on how it looked like on your side too.

If i was flashed by a non security member, and got up to see them holding out a submachine gun, I too would assume lethal intent.

and it's this point that changes everything else. i wouldn't call this optimal resolution, but people sometimes overreact and over escalate situations.

The RD took time to talk to you after the flash, so you shouldn't assume they're going to kill you right off the bat just over that. I advice you examine the situation next time and try to talk, you could've very much walked away from it if you knew what they wanted. And I'm not saying what the RD did was entirely right either, they could've talked to you more, but there were IC reasons for them to be rough, as a cult of marauders wielding the same sword you were toying with were killing crew.

Your ban was lifted before this reply was posted, and again, I'm sorry for how this incident was handled, and I'm a bit disappointed in myself that I couldn't come to this conclusion on my own, but this is why we have these forums, we all make mistakes.

[Faris]

Locking and archiving as this has been resolved with the ban being lifted.