[Resolved] Player Complaint: Jackboot

[Guest Menown]

BYOND Key: Meowykins

Player Byond Key: Jackboot

Reason for complaint: Poor RP, OOC Fighting.

First issue. The Poor RP.

Not so much Poor RP, as it is, understanding the detective role. Jackboot, as Buthaynah Jawdat fired upon a fleeing prisoner a total of four times. The prisoner was unarmed, and in cuffs. This was when there were several members of security nearby, as well as a HoP and a security member under the effects of a hallucinogen. Another prisoner, Charlie Dove, who was a changeling, died en-route to the medical bay. Jackboot decided that, upon her regenerating, that best course of action would be not to continue the journey to the medbay, or to secure the woman in a cell or perma, but to take her to the forensics lab, and place her on the operating table.

Second Issue: OOC Fighting.

I have notified Nightmare on this and have several witnesses, as well as logs.

This began with him asking why Detectives do now spawn with security belts accessible to them. To which, I responded that they are not officers, and are not an arresting force. He explained that in the event of a person attacking, he'd rather be able to shoot them (with lethal force as shown above,) he'd like to be able to arrest them with cuffs. Something that, again, is not the job of the detective. Soon, he responded with and I quote: "You are the most patronizing Tasmanian devil out of Twat City," and then proceeded to mute his OOC.

[LetzShake]

Gotta be honest, a person spontaneously returning from the dead probably warrants quarantining them until you can figure out what the hell they are. Especially if they're a violent criminal (I was told they stabbed someone and did other things I can't remember specifically.) Every character might have a different interpretation, but I don't think Jackboot's was unreasonable. I think at least part of your first issue is influenced by your second. You had a fight, you're mad, so you're escalating, it seems to me.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Edit read please:

Meowykins wasn't Tailia, so I switched all the "you" to "tailia" with ctrl-f. May have missed one, sorry if a confuse is made.

----

I'm going to remark on the OOC matter first because that's my biggest problem:

The OOC thing:

You either remembered it incorrectly, or you're being dishonest. I said I'd rather cuff them and stand there while waiting for officers to arrive rather than be forced to shoot them because they refuse to stay on the ground after I flash them. The very last round I played Buthaynah I had this exact problem: A geneticist ran up to the CSI I was talking to and injected him with the insta-paralyze thing they keep making lately. After that, he ran at me.

Now, this was a griefer, but I still whipped out my gun on hostage intent. I fired four shots when he kept moving, he went down, and I stood a few tile away calling for back-up repeatedly on the sec channel. Luckily, this was outside EVA, and two officers were in it at the time. I ask the HoS if I should turn in my gun after detailing the situation, and she lets me keep it. I didn't need to fire my gun at all for the rest of that shift.

But what if:

If the officers were not there, I'd have to fire another precious bullet with the man got up, because I am /not/ approaching a griefer to get my gun disarm'd away from me and used against me. The ideal situation I described would be me cuffing him, then waiting for officers to explain the situation and then report to the HoS about the incident for him/her to decide if the self-defense was necessary, and if I should keep my firearm after the incident.

The Main problem:

But this is ignoring the main problem I had: I joined the server late at night, kinda meh, and go detective. I fill up all my inventory slots, and since I don't like the coat, I remark in OOC that it would be super cool if detectives got a security belt to hold their shiz which would make half of the things they hold put in one place and everything would be easier to get in general.

You then start making extremely passive aggressive comments, and hinting that I'm a shitty detective and don't know how to play the role, as if I'm some new player that just barely joined. You even derailed the entire conversation to lecture me about what detectives are supposed to do when all I did was comment about wanting a stupid belt to hold my stupid tools. You put me in a bad mood with your attitude, and while I apologize for calling you a patronizing daredevil out of twat city, I won't apologize for muting myself to end your confrontational behaviour.

The IC stuff:

And as for the weapon - yes, I may have been aggressive with it, but: at the time Taila had escaped officers and was flashbanged repeatedly. After being flashanged, flashed - twice by myself, with Taila trying to run after both attempts - then brought up to solitary, I suddenly see her sprinting towards me again. Again. I pulled out my gun used HOSTAGE INTENT and aimed it at Taila. Did Taila stop? No, Taila didn't even blink. Taila kept sprinting full speed towards me somehow, which was strange since Taila had just been cuffed and dragged to solitary. In the 3 seconds I had to decide what to do, I determined this: Taila somehow broke out of the cuffs (because I literally saw Taila get cuffed before going up there) and were once again making another RP'less attempt to escape the brig.

Drawing my Gun:

So I drew my gun. I pointed it at Taila. Taila kept moving. Taila got shot. Taila fell down. Taila me'd a sigh. I bandaged her wounds and let the other officers take care of her. I quietly decided to forgo reporting myself discharging my weapon and turning it in to the HoS (Cap at the time) to decide if I keep it after reporting the incident until after the chaotic security situation was dealt with, because I wasn't going to waste the time of myself and the Captain with this when security was in such a mess.

Bad RP:

And talk about bad RP. Taila had no RP at all from what I saw, yet you filed an entire complaint against my person over bad RP. Taila made more attempts to break out of the brig with less forethought and effort than griefers. Taila repeatedly made officers hallucinate, then tried to make a mad-dash to the exits despite not having access. Taila didn't respond to pain - being stunned and flash got nothing but silence from Taila, and it took four bullets lodged in her chest to get a single sigh. A sigh from being shot four times.

Charlie's Undead Shenanigans:

Someone just reanimated going to medical. Buthaynah flipped out, and got all spooked. But these things were still true:

1) Medical had ignored 3 calls to pick up a dead body, and they'd probably also be equally attentive to an undead one.

2) The brig was absolutely not secure, thanks to Tailia's shenanigans filling the place with flashbangs and disarm intent.

3) The CSI room had a nice little operating area which had a sliding glass door and was pretty secure.

4) Her brother, the only one she could trust in this chaotic, stupid situation, was a taxidermist and in medical school.

With these things going through her pixelated little brain, she elected to move Charlie to the CSI operating room and called over Nazih. Now, a shuttle was called at the time, which really pooped all over my "Have an RP over slowly discovering about Charlie's 'ling abilities and try to persuade security about how super spooky this is so we can get science all over this as well" idea. So I took the (in retrospect super dumb) idea to speed up the entire process by going "SHE CAN COME BACK TO LIFE, BUTHAYNAH KNOWS IT, LOOK!", me'ing the gun against Charlie's chest, then shooting her until she died. This was ideally supposed to get security to go "what the fuck" and get Buth in trouble until Charlie reanimated, then we can all go "wow that's crazy" for 8 minutes until we go to the shuttle.

I probably didn't think that through, and do apologize to Thundy if that didn't give the expected enjoyment. I legitimately feel bad about doing that; the last few times I was in this exact same situation (killing the ling to prove it reanimates) I had gotten the LOOC consent from the ling. In the craziness of the situation and my frazzled OOC brain, I just sorta... Skipped that.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Marlon Phoenix

[Guest Menown]

Snip.

 

First -- I hadn't played the round. I wasn't Talia. I was a ghost, and observing. Firing upon an unarmed person four times, once when they've hit the ground isn't acceptable at all.

Second, and this hadn't happened when I had posted the complaint, you murdered Dove in the forensic's lab. While she was in a jacket, and on your table. Again, four shots into her.

The OOC behavior was the least of an issue, as name calling, and then muting yourself after said name calling is an extremely childish thing to do.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Snip.

 

First -- I hadn't played the round. I wasn't Talia. I was a ghost, and observing. Firing upon an unarmed person four times, once when they've hit the ground isn't acceptable at all.

Second, and this hadn't happened when I had posted the complaint, you murdered Dove in the forensic's lab. While she was in a jacket, and on your table. Again, four shots into her.

The OOC behavior was the least of an issue, as name calling, and then muting yourself after said name calling is an extremely childish thing to do.

 

Because I was frustrated. You kept trying you damn'd hardest to pick a fight with me. "You must be one of those detectives that patrol, too." "Detectives aren't security." And a handful of other fun quotes that you kept throwing at me after I commented about wanting convienent inventory slots. You even said, paraphrasing from memory, "Learn to manage your inventory or accept my hatred of security-detectives."

You can't try to pick a fight with me, then get angry when I retaliate with an angry comment then drop out of the conversation to prevent spamming OOC with bickering. If you wanted to continue to berate me, you were totally free to PM me on byond, where you could talk to me like I was a child all you wanted without doing it in front of the entire playerbase currently online when I'm just trying to manage my inventory.

And it's the bigger issue because you either remembered wrong or are lying, and are doing it in such a way that you can still word it to make me look like a shitty detective.

[Guest Menown]

Snip Pt. Deux

 

First, I said that detectives aren't officers, for one. Don't change my words.

Second, you dropped calling me patronizing once before the earlier mentioned quote, which caused me to continue, because you obviously saw it as me trying to pick a fight, instead of help you learn how a detective should be played, to ensure fun for everybody involved. This is something that obviously didn't work, with your attacks on various members of the station.

Third, the most important thing, is your conduct as a player. I could add another incident in which you killed a scientist as another Jawdat, and was met with no IC consequences, even though Central Command was notified and an agent was dispatched. Obviously your "meowfia" is the defining force and they are free to abuse and assault however they'd like.

[LetzShake]

First -- I hadn't played the round. I wasn't Talia. I was a ghost, and observing. Firing upon an unarmed person four times, once when they've hit the ground isn't acceptable at all.

 

Not true. "Stop or I'll shoot", then they don't stop, then they get shot. That's a pretty common thing and is kinda what hostage intent was put in the game for.

And I agree the shooting was a mistake, but not far out of the realm of what would be reasonable for a character to do in that situation. I blame the people who voted to end the round rather than RP, including, likely, the changeling who wanted the round to end because they were caught, rather than letting RP in which discovery that they're more than just a corpse humping criminal happens.

 

Obviously your "meowfia" is the defining force and they are free to abuse and assault however they'd like.

 

And this has nothing to do with the Jawdat family. Nazih was freaking out at Buth for shooting the ling, right up until it reanimated and he realized she was right about it being undead/evil/magic/whatever. So I think Jackboot has a point about you being passive aggressive, you're trying to attack him and his characters, rather than say much of substance.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Snip Pt. Deux

 

First, I said that detectives aren't officers, for one. Don't change my words.

Second, you dropped calling me patronizing once before the earlier mentioned quote, which caused me to continue, because you obviously saw it as me trying to pick a fight, instead of help you learn how a detective should be played, to ensure fun for everybody involved. This is something that obviously didn't work, with your attacks on various members of the station.

Third, the most important thing, is your conduct as a player. I could add another incident in which you killed a scientist as another Jawdat, and was met with no IC consequences, even though Central Command was notified and an agent was dispatched. Obviously your "meowfia" is the defining force and they are free to abuse and assault however they'd like.

 

You're bring up like 3 different, entirely unrelated events and trying to string them together into one plotline. I'm not even going to respond to the comment about the scientist, because that issue was settled through IC and admin-debriefing means. But I will give you: no, it wasn't the meowfia.

"instead of help you learn how a detective should be played"

This is where I took issue. You did not need to do that. You had zero reason to comment about my skills as detective, because the comments came out of nowhere. All I said, literally all I said: "Detectives should get security belts."

What, from this sentence, makes you think "He's one of those shitty powergaming detectives, I need to teach him to not be terrible"? It's a belt. It holds things. You don't need to talk to me like I have no idea what i'm doing or talking about because I want a belt.

[Guest Menown]

Snip Redux

 

Again, the issue is your conduct as a player. The reason for three strings, is how they all tie in together. If you have a report on somebody that goes over the course of a series of time, it isn't going to list only one thing. It's going to list everything.

The problem is your characters do outlandish things that would most certainly bring them to the unemployment line. Your "IC solution" that you talked of for Houssam? I was there. He was offered either a declawing, or his removal from a Command position. Guess what, he didn't do or get either.

As for the OOC part, you commented on the belt. I commented as well. You may not have enjoyed my opinion, but, like I said, either stop talking about getting a belt as a detective in OOC, or listen to my ranting on how I feel about those types of detectives. You chose to sling names, and remove yourself from OOC.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Snip Redux

snops

 

-Events of conflict are NOT canon unless agreed on by all involved parties. This still does not exempt you from rules on metagaming - your character does not acquire knowledge of syndicate items, xenos, etc. simply because they have interacted with them in previous rounds.

-Metagrudging is not allowed. Metagrudging is whenever your character or you carry over negative experiences and relations from previous rounds into a new one, be it IC-ly or OOC-ly.

-What is canon and not is determined by the players and how they wish to develop their characters. Usually, character deaths are erased from history, as are rounds where the characters are antagonists. Temper this with the guidelines regarding metagrudging, a good conscience and sportsmanship.

Right off the bat the rules themselves shoot down your complaint of Houssam not being permakilled or whatever, but let me talk about it regardless because you're being really insistive about expanding the scope of this complaint:

I'm not going to permakill Houssam from HoP or have him coded to do less damage and RP him being mutilated (which would make no fucking sense but I'd digress) because he clawed at someone who: Slapped his ass, discussed its firmness with Travis Davis on public comms to humiliate him, refused to apologize, then continued to be a bitch about the entire thing when she was released from the brig. Houssam, after all of this, lost his temper and clawed her a few times then stormed off. She didn't do pain RP, btw. Just made a 'bad-ass' comment that I forget. I think something along the lines of "try again."

10 minutes later, the CMO yells at me about her dying. Apparently she tried to be a tough girl and ignore the wound and let an infection set in, then died from it when Charlie failed to use sterilicide or whatever when she was put in medbay for it. Houssam was charged with manslaughter. I accepted it IC and begrudgingly OOC because even though the death was still, she still died. I altered his behaviour for such situations, and have decided to only use disarm intent or blunt force trauma to avoid infecting wounds when someone sexually assaults him then brags about it for 3 minutes for the entire station to hear, humiliating him.

OOC stuff:

And no, that' silly. You can't just take every unrelated comment in OOC to segway into a passionate speech about how I'm shit.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Marlon Phoenix

[Guest Menown]

Snips Part III: The Snippening

 

I wouldn't have brought up the issue with Houssam, if you hadn't kept it canon, Jackboot. I learned you had, I brought it up. I never said anything about permakilling, so, again, stop twisting my words.

OOC Stuff: I can say what I want about any topic you present, so long as allowed within the rules. No admin has stepped in and told me or you to stop, so I chose to continue, as I like a bit of debate, even if it gets heated.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Snips Part III: The Snippening

 

I wouldn't have brought up the issue with Houssam, if you hadn't kept it canon, Jackboot. I learned you had, I brought it up. I never said anything about permakilling, so, again, stop twisting my words.

OOC Stuff: I can say what I want about any topic you present, so long as allowed within the rules. No admin has stepped in and told me or you to stop, so I chose to continue, as I like a bit of debate, even if it gets heated.

 

It wasn't kept canon. I talked to Tainavaa, and the only thing kept canon was Tina and Houssam having an argument that lead to this heartfelt conversation between the two that lead to a higher sense of respect for the other.

EDIT:

I went to screepcap the logs.

http://i.imgur.com/lLE96dh.png

 

Disclaimer: The canon thing is what's in all caps. Houssam didn't make out with Tina.

OOC Stuff:

Well I suppose you can, but it sort of makes you an ass. If you're going to take every chance you can to poop all over everything I say, then I'll just add you to the list of people that spark an OOC mute from me as soon as I see your name. You don't have to talk to me like I'm an idiot, I don't have to get irritated at your passive-aggressiveness. Future problems solved.

[Guest Menown]

Snip IV Return of the Snipper

 

Alright. At the advice of an admin, I'm going to refrain from commenting from this post on, atleast until some other people have weighed in.

The main issue, is the IC shooting stuff. The OOC was mostly you calling me a twat and such. The thing about the belt is me being petty and trying to present an ideal detective.

If there's anything to be gained from this, it's that detectives (you or otherwise) need to refrain from going John Woo on people. Four shots to down a fleeing character is really bad. Shooting a character on a table that can't move, is bad. Using a gun in a way other than self defense, is bad. Are you getting where I'm going with this?

I'm not an angry person. This tonight, made me angry, as it brought me to have to file a report (which wasn't my idea. It was the idea of several ghosting members, as well as an admin.) I prefer to solve these things when they happen. It lets us keep our cools, and figure out issues easier.

[Thundy]

Hello everyone, Charlie Dove here. Seems to me that there are a whole bunch of different issues that aren't related to the original complaint being brought up. If it was me, I'd probably be making a complaint for all of those things. Best to hash these things out. About the whole detective thing, it's totally fine, dear. I was kind of over the round by that point (see the complaint about Jboy) and so may have said some things I didn't mean. I do apologize. It was a pretty cocked up round by that point and I was frustrated and ready to take it out on the next person that came along. I hope we can still be friends.

Cheers, Thundy.

[josh1133]

Well this is going to be fun. If I may weigh in:

OOC Jackboot: While I don't know what exactly happened here, I do know Jackboot has said OOC things before. As he yelled at me for saying something IC but thats neither here nor there and not something I dwell on, just pointing out that when he finds something finds upsetting he makes it known.

OOC Meow: I was all on your side until you admitted towards your feelings about those detectives. While, I agree, Detectives should not be on the front line, let me give you a magical scenario I have dealt with many times when I play detective:

*About three security sit in the lobby, two patrol until about 45 minutes, while I sit in my office and wait for the call for a detective that never comes, occassionally going to play basketball.*

So! Occasionally I walk around, and I do patrol and when I come across something I stop the situation and call Security. But by the sound of it, since you don't like that I should just sit in my office or sit in the back of Sec and be the moral support. Your attitude is what makes me angry about playing detective, because if we followed those rules we have no rp, and no one to talk too. Why? Because I have sec officers who walk through blood, Sec officers who do their own interrogations and Sec officers who can do their job better then me, or so they think. So how about you play Detective a few rounds and play it your way, then complain about why the Detective might want to walk around.

That being said, I'm not saying Detectives need cuffs, they don't need to be the one making arrest. Usually I just call Sec and let them take over the situation once they arrive, and I suggest any detective do the same.

Case in point: You are right about the cuffs, but don't you dare complain about a Detective walking around. You sit in a office all shift with no one coming to talk to you because no one needs you for three hours then think about it.

IC: I hate hate hate hate hate this the most in the world is when someone who is not staff tells another player that what they are doing IC is wrong. If its breaking a rule and you are warning them, that's fine. But if you don't like how someone plays detective, how someone is in command, how someone is running a mafia and you are IC aware of it, HANDLE IT IC.

FFS.

Every time I see a thread commenting "Well this character did this so they are shitty", no. No. No. If you think a character should be fired, you got to the IAA and you show them the evidence, like what I do and like what every other reasonable RPer would do. You don't bring it to a thread and point out "This character should not be here", because not only are you fucking and embarrassing that person, you are fucking anyone who is related to that character.

Here is what you should do:

Step 1: Think "Wow, this person sure is doing a shitty job"

Step 2: Wait for IAA Dorian Bonds or just as good person to get on board

Step 3: Go to IAA, file complaint

Step 4: If you went to Dorian bonds, or another good IAA, they /will continue a investigation over multiple shifts/

Step 5: Said IAA will then message CC, aka the admins, and with evidence stacked against them then something will be done.

But instead, we are here. Point is, if you don't like how a character talks, how a character does their job, or how a character demands a belt for something, you bring it to the IAA, or conduct your own investigation and send it to CC. If you think Jack shooting someone was too much? Well that's grounds for a investigation and a lot of fun, interesting RP, fuck you might even be the one to take down his mafia. What a cool thing to do IC.

Instead we are here.

Point is, IC Problem? Handle it IC unless its serious. Not being upset about how someone does their job.

[Tainavaa]

Just throwing this in here regarding the OOC thing.

Jackboot complained about a security belt not being accessible to detectives strictly for inventory management purposes, not for officer-detective purposes. It spiraled off into a tangent from there; how I'm not exactly certain but I know that Jackboot had not complained about a lack of handcuffs or other officer-specific equipment.

Edit: Just read Josh's thing about handling IC things IC. FUCKING THAT. Holy shit it is so annoying that people don't like handling IC things IC. I thought this was a roleplaying game, you know, where we play roles with fictional characters in a sandbox? Jesus.

[Chaznoodles]

Personally, I don't see any substance behind this complaint. If Security did not respond fast enough to a prisoner bolting, and Jackboot shouted out for the prisoner to halt and he didn't, the shots were justified. Also, as LetzShake said, a person spontaneously returning from the dead warrants quarantine.

As far as I can tell here, Meowy, you've taken issues which were ICly acceptable and blown them out of proportion in order to create conflict against Jackboot here. It's a bit ridiculous.

[Guest Menown]

Yeah.

Forgot this was still up.

Issues were resolved via the pager, and Jackboot and I have made up. Don't know how to delete this or whatever, so I forgot.

[incognitojesus]

Issue resolved. Locking & archiving.