Staff Complaint gamerlord357

[Gamerlord]

BYOND Key: gamerlord357

Staff BYOND Key: Datberry

Game ID:

Reason for complaint: Was banned after fighting a diona scheming to become captain. The AI repeatedly skipped steps in logic and reasoning - like saying that the diona captain had to authorise a message to Central to find out if the CANON restriction on diona being captains had been changed. Multiple diona were being creepy, badgering me to give blood to their offspring and all that. When they started remarking on how 'change is good' and that the Captain was most certainly authorised and legally appointed and all that. Ended up demanding that someone with access reset the obviously malfunctioning AI and that security take the 'captain' into arrest. When no security responded I announced my intention as a Quartermaster and the only thing even close to a department head (the HoS was dead, the RD, CMO, HoP and CE were nowhere to be found) so I headed up the corridor from Cargo office when the AI 'reset' with a malfunction or something that identified the diona captain as a fraud. I then moved faster to find the captain with a laser and coat and moved to take him into custody, then when he shot me struck back. Then an admin popped up demanding to know if i was 'validhunting' and when I didn't know what that meant (it's mentioned once in the rules and then only in passing, no actual definition or meaning) banned me because spending time on here means knowing what that obscure term means is a requirement. The ban text specifically states that understanding that term is required. This is obviously ridiculous and frankly I suspect the entire 'diona as captain' plot was the moderator in questions brainchild.

Evidence/logs/etc:

Additional remarks:

datberry has banned gamerlord357. - Reason: Validhunting and unable to recognize the concept, you've been here long enough to read the rules, appeal on the forums when you understand why what you did was wrong. - This will be removed in 10080 minutes.

 

"I added both the staff account name and ban reason for you." - Sharp

[tbear13]

It'd be great if you can post a screenshot of the ban reason, it should show the reason when you try to join. The definition of validhunting is to, well, try to get a kill just because it's 'valid.' A valid kill being an antag or anyone you can kill without punishment. Arming yourself as a quartermaster and trying to do securities job just 'because you can' is very much against the rules. Would you, realistically, go from a box-pusher to an armed vigilante and try to fight the AI, Captain, and possibly the rest of the crew, over a diona being made the Captain? Not to mention you trying to order security around as a QM, which, as a sec-main, bugs me.

[Sebbe]

Greetings! I was the Traitor Dionaea Witness To A Star Born and I... somewhat agree to your ban.

Yes this wasn't out of nowhere and we had been interacting ever since I announced becoming the Captain, but as stated above you were a simple crate pusher, there was no reason for you to attack me ESPECIALLY since I was armed and holding an energy pistol on Lethal in front of you while you had a switchblade on the other hand, You attacked me and it resulted in your death while I lived for a few moments before getting shot to split by the security borg that was present before you arrived and I was interacting with.

From my point of view this was very much a valid attempt at killing me, You had no real reason to kill me as I never did anything wrong to the station and was actively asking to help out (Didn't have time to activate the nuke sadly) And you had no support to kill me other than the borg that was already interracting with me and on the verge of shooting me.

I hope you didn't get a long ban and it is a simple day ban or so because the little we did interact was nice even if it was repetetive and uneventfull before our clash and your demise.

Remember Dionaea are strong, fighting one will result in you taking a whole lot of damage if the Dionaea a traitor and fighting back, The Diona won't die and can come back as many times as it needs to kill you or it can simply wait out your short lifespan.

Have a good day and I hope to see you back tomorrow!

-Sebbe

[Gamerlord]

 

It'd be great if you can post a screenshot of the ban reason, it should show the reason when you try to join. The definition of validhunting is to, well, try to get a kill just because it's 'valid.' A valid kill being an antag or anyone you can kill without punishment. Arming yourself as a quartermaster and trying to do securities job just 'because you can' is very much against the rules. Would you, realistically, go from a box-pusher to an armed vigilante and try to fight the AI, Captain, and possibly the rest of the crew, over a diona being made the Captain? Not to mention you trying to order security around as a QM, which, as a sec-main, bugs me.

'Armed vigilante' is an overstatement. 'Order security around' isn't exactly correct. 'Alerting them to a breach in regulations and demanding they do their jobs' is closer.

Greetings! I was the Traitor Dionaea Witness To A Star Born and I... somewhat agree to your ban.

Yes this wasn't out of nowhere and we had been interacting ever since I announced becoming the Captain, but as stated above you were a simple crate pusher, there was no reason for you to attack me ESPECIALLY since I was armed and holding an energy pistol on Lethal in front of you while you had a switchblade on the other hand, You attacked me and it resulted in your death while I lived for a few moments before getting shot to split by the security borg that was present before you arrived and I was interacting with.

From my point of view this was very much a valid attempt at killing me, You had no real reason to kill me as I never did anything wrong to the station and was actively asking to help out (Didn't have time to activate the nuke sadly) And you had no support to kill me other than the borg that was already interracting with me and on the verge of shooting me.

I hope you didn't get a long ban and it is a simple day ban or so because the little we did interact was nice even if it was repetetive and uneventfull before our clash and your demise.

Remember Dionaea are strong, fighting one will result in you taking a whole lot of damage if the Dionaea a traitor and fighting back, The Diona won't die and can come back as many times as it needs to kill you or it can simply wait out your short lifespan.

Have a good day and I hope to see you back tomorrow!

-Sebbe

I didn't actually intend to kill you until I ran into you pulling a final stand with a laser gun. I only intended to convince you that it was over and that you and your compatriots needed to submit to legal custody. I only had the wrench and switchblade because I had been working in the Surface level earlier which required tools to open powered-down doors and a method of fighting giant spiders. You say our interaction was 'repetitive', I say it was like ramming my head into a brick wall. An obvious problem that everyone around me refused to look at, while with every passing minute more and more dionae spawned. An AI that was clearly having some form of logic-malfunction, skipping over a basic concept and reducing it to a paradox (I can't verify the legality of the Captain's authority without the Captain's authorization) which no one else seemed concerned about. I understand that we can't use meta information to interact with antags, and we're supposed to make it fun. That DOESN'T mean that we should just bend over and spread the cheeks whenever they're in an advantageous position. By that point no one was communicating, I had heard literally nothing from any department head, not the HoP, not the CMO, not the RD or CE. The HoS was confirmed dead (holocarps) and I had three miners in Cargo with me and as far as I knew, it was the only place that the dionae hadn't compromised, due to my refusal to allow any nymphs inside. So what was I supposed to do?

[Gamerlord]

I didn't actually intend to kill you until I ran into you pulling a final stand with a laser gun. I only intended to convince you that it was over and that you and your compatriots needed to submit to legal custody. I only had the wrench and switchblade because I had been working in the Surface level earlier which required tools to open powered-down doors and a method of fighting giant spiders. You say our interaction was 'repetitive', I say it was like ramming my head into a brick wall. An obvious problem that everyone around me refused to look at, while with every passing minute more and more dionae spawned. An AI that was clearly having some form of logic-malfunction, skipping over a basic concept and reducing it to a paradox (I can't verify the legality of the Captain's authority without the Captain's authorization) which no one else seemed concerned about. I understand that we can't use meta information to interact with antags, and we're supposed to make it fun. That DOESN'T mean that we should just bend over and spread the cheeks whenever they're in an advantageous position. By that point no one was communicating, I had heard literally nothing from any department head, not the HoP, not the CMO, not the RD or CE. The HoS was confirmed dead (holocarps) and I had three miners in Cargo with me and as far as I knew, it was the only place that the dionae hadn't compromised, due to my refusal to allow any nymphs inside. So what was I supposed to do?

To further clarify, the WIP bio of the character in question is that of a former soldier/marine/etc working as a Quartermaster/Cargo Technician/Miner. I was working on making him an uncompromising jackass who demands results, sticks to the rules and views 'others' (nonhumans especially, but also potentially Merchants, the hyper-religious and anyone who deviates harshly from the norm) as possible threats to size up and hold at arms-length. He's part of my endeavour to form a series of coherent characters since playing the same amorphous blob of character with the same name is against server rules.

[Sebbe]

I didn't actually intend to kill you until I ran into you pulling a final stand with a laser gun. I only intended to convince you that it was over and that you and your compatriots needed to submit to legal custody. I only had the wrench and switchblade because I had been working in the Surface level earlier which required tools to open powered-down doors and a method of fighting giant spiders. You say our interaction was 'repetitive', I say it was like ramming my head into a brick wall. An obvious problem that everyone around me refused to look at, while with every passing minute more and more dionae spawned. An AI that was clearly having some form of logic-malfunction, skipping over a basic concept and reducing it to a paradox (I can't verify the legality of the Captain's authority without the Captain's authorization) which no one else seemed concerned about. I understand that we can't use meta information to interact with antags, and we're supposed to make it fun. That DOESN'T mean that we should just bend over and spread the cheeks whenever they're in an advantageous position. By that point no one was communicating, I had heard literally nothing from any department head, not the HoP, not the CMO, not the RD or CE. The HoS was confirmed dead (holocarps) and I had three miners in Cargo with me and as far as I knew, it was the only place that the dionae hadn't compromised, due to my refusal to allow any nymphs inside. So what was I supposed to do?

To further clarify, the WIP bio of the character in question is that of a former soldier/marine/etc working as a Quartermaster/Cargo Technician/Miner. I was working on making him an uncompromising jackass who demands results, sticks to the rules and views 'others' (nonhumans especially, but also potentially Merchants, the hyper-religious and anyone who deviates harshly from the norm) as possible threats to size up and hold at arms-length. He's part of my endeavour to form a series of coherent characters since playing the same amorphous blob of character with the same name is against server rules.

 

I'd like to not that beside myself as a (fake) Captain, I can only remember the Dionaea CMO and a dead or unresponsive HoS on the manifest.

The AI was subverted with a law that made me the captain no matter how you twisted and turned on it, the AI did a good job running with the law aswell and I made the law in such a way that it didn't hamper anything the AI was already doing or make the AI any more loyal to me than it would be to any other captain. It was simply a law that said " (my name) is the Captain, no law (talking about station laws, can be seen as AI laws aswell. I made it open for interpretation to make things interesting ) or regulation can say otherwise" or something close to this.

This made it so the AI was open to do as they wished as long as they followed their normal laws and saw me (A diona) as the captain.

I didn't really have any other plans other than this at the time, I was planning and thinking as I made my rounds and my presence felt by the crew, commenting on a filthy medbay and asking the engineering department to fix broken stuff as any normal captain would do. I decided too late on what I could do to further my gimmick and by the time, and someone reset the AI laws to nothing making it rouge at the same time as I was having the standoff with the borg.

Remember that sometimes it's not about being right or wrong, sometimes it's best to lose even when you have no real reason to do so. I often surrender or fight half heartedly as an antag simply because it is easier and makes the round more fun for others, even if I really wished I could flood security with phoron or something else fun.

[DatBerry]

Apparently the term Validhunting is never actually given a definition in the current form of the rules, so for that I apologize for requesting that you knew the term.

However, what it entails is covered in the rules, and there is no excuse for not avoiding this situation.

 

Powergaming = Also know as 'playing to win'. If you're trying to complete your objectives, kill the antagonists, or 'win', at all costs and ignore RP, you may be better off somewhere else. This includes having your character unafraid of death or pain, resistant to any torture, ready to battle alone against a crowd of opponents, or, being unarmed, senselessly attacking a gun wielder or hostage taker.

 

Generally, avoid playing hero. There are certain opportunities every character can seize to overthrow an antagonist

 

Avoid pain. A sane, well-rounded character would not engage in actions that are overly painful, or put themselves in harm's way without consideration (e.g. going EVA without a suit, stabbing themselves repeatedly, or continue to run at someone after being shot multiple times.)

 

You decided the captain had to be stopped without knowing the full picture, nor being in a position to do so. a quartermaster might have some similarities to a head of staff, but they do not share any of the authority. You decided to get involved in security's affairs at the expense of your own well being, and the diona's.

Rushing them with a knife when it's not self defense is pretty much escalating to lethal force out of the blue, when as far as I know, they haven't personally endangered you; but not only that, they had a weapon, and you had an easy escape route if you had engaged and the weapon came out later, but you decided to keep on attacking until death, before shouting in LOOC

I DIE A HERO

which is basically instating your desire to kill the antag above all.

Playing an ex-military character does not mean you get to circumvent the rules, no matter how "robust" and "vigilante" your character is, they will be bwoinked if they're just an excuse to go after antags (not that they're even robust). If you want the freedom to fight antags the moment they appear and do something not even directly affecting you then this server won't fit with you.

[Gamerlord]

Apparently the term Validhunting is never actually given a definition in the current form of the rules, so for that I apologize for requesting that you knew the term.

However, what it entails is covered in the rules, and there is no excuse for not avoiding this situation.

 

Powergaming = Also know as 'playing to win'. If you're trying to complete your objectives, kill the antagonists, or 'win', at all costs and ignore RP, you may be better off somewhere else. This includes having your character unafraid of death or pain, resistant to any torture, ready to battle alone against a crowd of opponents, or, being unarmed, senselessly attacking a gun wielder or hostage taker.

 

Generally, avoid playing hero. There are certain opportunities every character can seize to overthrow an antagonist

 

Avoid pain. A sane, well-rounded character would not engage in actions that are overly painful, or put themselves in harm's way without consideration (e.g. going EVA without a suit, stabbing themselves repeatedly, or continue to run at someone after being shot multiple times.)

 

You decided the captain had to be stopped without knowing the full picture, nor being in a position to do so. a quartermaster might have some similarities to a head of staff, but they do not share any of the authority. You decided to get involved in security's affairs at the expense of your own well being, and the diona's.

Rushing them with a knife when it's not self defense is pretty much escalating to lethal force out of the blue, when as far as I know, they haven't personally endangered you; but not only that, they had a weapon, and you had an easy escape route if you had engaged and the weapon came out later, but you decided to keep on attacking until death, before shouting in LOOC

I DIE A HERO

which is basically instating your desire to kill the antag above all.

Playing an ex-military character does not mean you get to circumvent the rules, no matter how "robust" and "vigilante" your character is, they will be bwoinked if they're just an excuse to go after antags (not that they're even robust). If you want the freedom to fight antags the moment they appear and do something not even directly affecting you then this server won't fit with you.

The 'I Die A Hero' bit was a joke on something that happened in a previous round, where I told another player in the looc to just hurry up and follow me to the space carp so that I could die a hero, because dinner was waiting. The problem with saying that RP is important is that at that point in the round, no one was responding. If I have to RP stuff, fine I'm more than excited to do that, but don't say 'oh you need to rp your opposition to the antag' when no one is engaging. I like to think of playing Space Station 13 as telling a story, but it's sort of impossible to tell a story when you're being given the verbal equivalent of seeing an impassible waist-high fence. I tried to get others interested in the fact that there was a major discrepancy and violation of regulations going on, I tried to engage, but all I got was 'good for the dionae' and 'I don't see a problem with this'. It gets frustrating trying to tell a story on your own, and I'll admit I was angry as fuck when I finally went to try and arrest the Captain. I shouldn't have attacked, but I saw the lethal weapon and panicked. Also, two things. One, there really needs to be a formalised chain of command in the wiki, by which I mean, when the heads of staff are either dead or unlawful we need to know what to do. At the moment it just lists that everyone is equal except for assistants, which is not very helpful. Two, AFAIK there were NO security staff. No one was responding to messages, no one was present about the station and in the end the false Captain was taken down by a (mech? robot?). Don't say I involved myself in security's affairs when for all intents and purposes there was no security. Another thing the wiki needs to clarify.

I'd like to not that beside myself as a (fake) Captain, I can only remember the Dionaea CMO and a dead or unresponsive HoS on the manifest.

The AI was subverted with a law that made me the captain no matter how you twisted and turned on it, the AI did a good job running with the law aswell and I made the law in such a way that it didn't hamper anything the AI was already doing or make the AI any more loyal to me than it would be to any other captain. It was simply a law that said " (my name) is the Captain, no law (talking about station laws, can be seen as AI laws aswell. I made it open for interpretation to make things interesting ) or regulation can say otherwise" or something close to this.

This made it so the AI was open to do as they wished as long as they followed their normal laws and saw me (A diona) as the captain.

I didn't really have any other plans other than this at the time, I was planning and thinking as I made my rounds and my presence felt by the crew, commenting on a filthy medbay and asking the engineering department to fix broken stuff as any normal captain would do. I decided too late on what I could do to further my gimmick and by the time, and someone reset the AI laws to nothing making it rouge at the same time as I was having the standoff with the borg.

Remember that sometimes it's not about being right or wrong, sometimes it's best to lose even when you have no real reason to do so. I often surrender or fight half heartedly as an antag simply because it is easier and makes the round more fun for others, even if I really wished I could flood security with phoron or something else fun.

I get it, but my problem was every other player deciding 'fuck the regulations' they would just ignore what was going on. I was happy to lose, I just wanted there to be an actual conflict/contest/confrontation. I was pretty happy with the AI's roleplaying and to an extent yours, it was everyone else that I was pissed off with. If you're supposed to be a loyal employee of Nanotrasen, then you should be abiding by it's regulations, instead of just going 'fuck it' and ignoring the situation.

[Sebbe]

Snippety snap

 

I understand your frustration to some extent but you must remember that I was not the only antag. Security got screwed and fucked pretty hard by whoever destroyed them and medical was busy dealing with dead and dying crew from the other Traitors, I believe even one of your miners were a Traitor, killing one other Miner and doing something I am unaware of.

I, like you, feel the 7 day ban was a bit too much for a one time violation of Validhunting, A one day slap on the wrist I would be happy with as you didn't do anything that impacted the round or my roleplay as my gimmick had already peaked and the round was ending by the time our standoff took place.

I feel in light of your misunderstanding of what "Validhunting" is we should update the wiki with an entry on what "Validhunting" is in the Glossary and Terminology entry. Know that I, the victim of this ban and more or less the reason you were banned am supporting you here.

It might be because I only play Dionaea and have become numb to the fear of death and feel like there is more or less no punishment in dying except for when my actuall split nymphs die that make me so supportive, I'm sure if I played a regular human or any of the other races that demand a cloning or some other more permanent death ressurection mechanic I would be less supportive, but as it is now I feel a 7 day ban was a bit excessive for a misunderstanding and ignorance when it is somewhat our server at fault for your ignorance of the reason for your ban.

[DatBerry]

Since the term is never actually explained in the rules, I shouldn't have blamed you for being oblivious to the term, honestly it's such a common term around SS13 that I was surprised that you didn't know it and thought you were just acting dumb, I was originally going to go with a 3 day ban but the way you responded made me and other staff believe you were just pretending to be oblivious.

I've already unbanned you; what you did was against the rules, but it didn't deserve that long of a ban, and that part I admit was my mistake, so this doesn't resolve the complaint until [mention]TishinaStalker[/mention] (the admin handling this complaint) comes to a conclusion, or you decide this is resolved.

[Gamerlord]

Since the term is never actually explained in the rules, I shouldn't have blamed you for being oblivious to the term, honestly it's such a common term around SS13 that I was surprised that you didn't know it and thought you were just acting dumb, I was originally going to go with a 3 day ban but the way you responded made me and other staff believe you were just pretending to be oblivious.

I've already unbanned you; what you did was against the rules, but it didn't deserve that long of a ban, and that part I admit was my mistake, so this doesn't resolve the complaint until @TishinaStalker (the admin handling this complaint) comes to a conclusion, or you decide this is resolved.

It's fine, this is resolved I guess.

[TishinaStalker]

I'm glad you two were able to come to a reasonable conclusion without me needing to get involved in the first place. I agree with the points being said here and I'm glad Berry was able to come to the conclusion on his own that maybe he was being a tad unreasonable due to assuming your knowledge. Since the one who filed the complaint agrees that now the matter is resolved, I'm myself inclined to agree based on what I have read here. I'm not going to take action against Berry either, seeing as, as I pointed above, he came to the conclusion on his own, and that's one of the first ways to start fixing your mindset for the future. Thank you, you two.

Locking and archiving.