[CLOSED] Dionaea: Less Secure

So, this is being brought up simply because as it stands now, it makes zero sense in the realm of realism which is: Dionaea should not be Security Officers.

The role of Security Officer is to be able to respond to emergency calls and arrive on-scene in short order, which involves running to the location. Now, in the academy, they do physicals and test your ability to not only run to a situation, but also run from it. If you can't take cover or get away from any danger to avoid it, you become a liability. You also have to pursue after suspects. And I'm pretty sure everyone here knows how much it would suck to let a mass murderer escape.

Sure. Dionaea can be pretty robust. But by all means, they are not fit for duty as an officer. What I'm asking for here is only a restriction on the species playing as anything that involves running to and from a scene, and chasing after suspects- namely, more or less Security Officers. However, they can still play as Warden and Detective-roles as they shouldn't involve running about much. Wardens get to stick around in the brig and able to move short distance somewhat fast if they shuffled their feet a bit faster, and for detectives, realistically a Dionae should be able to read a scene and people much like Sherlock- they're a rather intelligent species, and if you've lived for a long time (to those that apply), it would come as second nature if you specialize in the role for so long.

I was thinking on asking on a restriction for Cadets to be included in this, but there are some cadets that get to shadow the Detectives or even the Warden, so maybe just have officers recline on taking them on and handing the Dionae over to the detectives/warden. So perhaps just make it against protocol to shadow an Officer/HoS as a liability issue and enforce it as such? If a second suggestion thread is needed for it, let me know and I'll make one.

But with this role being taken away, access to a new position is being suggested to balance this request.

Edit: This is a species whitelist role restriction request.

I feel Detective job isn't suitable for Dionae as it requires a certain element when questioning people and deductive reasoning. Humans, Unathi, Skrell and Tajara onboard have the ability to consider the "human" element in crimes and interrogation which I'm not 100% positive that Dionae can, though do feel free to correct me on this.

And before people bring up IPC's. They can be specialized in their production and programming to pick up the same cues the other races I cited before.

Though if this as it stands does get pushed forward, this would also mean that Dionae that join as cadet just to tag around with Officers would be subject to a specie policy violation. How would you as the Dionae lore developer want this enforced? Just from our end? Yours? Both?

Dionaea Security is a meme. Under no circumstances should this be a thing given how Dionaea lack the mobility that a security officer needs. They would fail any sort of training requirement, easily.

I mean, aren't industrials like the second slowest species, and yet are the standard sec officer IPC chassis?

It seems like resilience and CQC abilities are things highly valued in the security field, something Dionae have plenty of.

I mean, I'll give you the point about not being able to chase people down, but they aren't entirely 100% unsuited to the job of Officer. Just not for patrols, or any other role which requires fast feet. Checkpoint manning, guarding an area, and handling emergencies/antags/EVA issues are all reasonably within their grasp.

I feel Detective job isn't suitable for Dionae as it requires a certain element when questioning people and deductive reasoning. Humans, Unathi, Skrell and Tajara onboard have the ability to consider the "human" element in crimes and interrogation which I'm not 100% positive that Dionae can, though do feel free to correct me on this.

And before people bring up IPC's. They can be specialized in their production and programming to pick up the same cues the other races I cited before.

Though if this as it stands does get pushed forward, this would also mean that Dionae that join as cadet just to tag around with Officers would be subject to a specie policy violation. How would you as the Dionae lore developer want this enforced? Just from our end? Yours? Both?

I have a lot of things to add into the wiki and further explain, but yes, Dionaea are capable of experiencing emotion. Lone Nymphs, especially new ones, start off with basic raw emotion minus sadness and disgust considering the nature of the way they live, and use these emotions to survive. With age comes wisdom of course and they are capable of learning different emotions and experience them when they have the leisure to do so and acquire them through learning. The biggest reason why Gestalts (namely older ones, the younger ones are still prone to immaturity of course) act so serene and slow is because they take the information and process it among one another and reach a consensus on what to do with it, the end result is them all choosing a more thought-out and appropriate reaction, which is typically, calmly. There's no reason to overreact to things when it could simply worsen the situation for all involved. When a singular Nymph, they act like any other organic, but as a Gestalt they act more reasonably. That doesn't mean that they aren't capable of taking other's emotions into account, they're simply more collected.

As for enforcing: I would like to warn players beforehand of the change so they can adapt accordingly, deciding for themselves to make IC or OOC changes about their character- whether playing it off as new policy that was installed, or a simple redaction and change in who the Cadet assisted. This would probably be done in the game's welcome-screen news, and through forums/Discord. Actual enforcing can be done by other players though ahelps, kindly letting the player know through LOOC, or staff doing a cursory check once in a while if a cadet Dionae comes on board. Of course, I will be floating around too to check in and make sure our happy tree friends are playing well with everyone. After a while, everyone will hopefully get the hint and we won't have to monitor as much if for some reason there was ever such a need in the first place.

G2 Industrials are slower than Dionae and they're tailor made for security roles. I fail to see how speed would be the sole factor in deciding they can't put all that strength and bulk to good use.

Jobs that dionaea cannot do feasibly, if this was enforced:

- Security Officer

- Detective

- Security Cadet

- Shaft Miner

- Xenoarcheologist

- CSI/FT

- Electrician

- EMT/Paramedic

- Head of Security

- Captain

- Head of Personnel

Dionaea will be barred either through lore-wise restrictions or coding restrictions for a total of eleven positions, with some of them due to code itself brought about due to Garnascus being a "fun" dionaea antag. I wouldn't recommend this, tbh. Just enforce better standards to stop meme dionaea from being badsec.

I mean, aren't industrials like the second slowest species, and yet are the standard sec officer IPC chassis?

It seems like resilience and CQC abilities are things highly valued in the security field, something Dionae have plenty of.

I mean, I'll give you the point about not being able to chase people down, but they aren't entirely 100% unsuited to the job of Officer. Just not for patrols, or any other role which requires fast feet. Checkpoint manning, guarding an area, and handling emergencies/antags/EVA issues are all reasonably within their grasp.

Like I said before, they are tanky, yes. But realistically, you have to pass physical tests to join the force irl. If you cannot respond to an emergency, what are you being paid for? It also takes up slots in the game. In all honesty I feel that the Industrials in security is a bit of a joke as well, but only ever seen one or two at the most play as Officer. The other one plays as Warden, and they do a pretty good job at it. In addition to my earlier muse about Cadets, I was thinking that they could be used to do the ones you suggested with a few additions. They would be restricted from following an officer on patrol and responding to emergencies that involve a fast response and/or a chase, but the can do paperwork and other errands for the department like any other cadet, shadow the Detective on their job, guarding an area and manning a checkpoint (I've seen Cadets do this before and it's reasonable) and reporting things where they're posted. Handling antags outside of supervised transportation or otherwise shouldn't be allowed unless there's absolutely no choice- what if they break free and make for an escape? Guess who can't chase after them? As for EVA, as long as there's not much of a rush or no other choice, that sounds fine. Overall, they would be in a Cadet position with some minor restrictions, and should be treated as such.

Jobs that dionaea cannot do feasibly, if this was enforced:

- Security Officer

- Detective

- Security Cadet

- Shaft Miner

- Xenoarcheologist

- CSI/FT

- Electrician

- EMT/Paramedic

- Head of Security

- Captain

- Head of Personnel

Dionaea will be barred either through lore-wise restrictions or coding restrictions for a total of eleven positions, with some of them due to code itself brought about due to Garnascus being a "fun" dionaea antag. I wouldn't recommend this, tbh. Just enforce better standards to stop meme dionaea from being badsec.

- Security Officer: Too slow

- Detective: This is fine, as they should not have to actively chase suspects or respond to emergencies. That is an Officer's job. "Why do they have a gun then?" Because of noir detective films.

- Security Cadet: This is fine. They just have to leave the heavy-duty stuff such as emergencies and chases to Officers like most cadets should.

- Shaft Miner: This is fine. Shaft miners are slow because of their gear. They don't have to run after anyone or respond to emergencies. The only reason why they can't do anything right now is because of lighting.

- Xenoarcheologist: See above.

- CSI/FT: Same as Detective.

- Electrician: This is fine. They don't have to chase after anyone. The only emergencies that they have to respond to are broken doors, a broken APC, etc. Which typically isn't life-threatening.

- EMT/Paramedic: This should defiantly be restricted. If you're not able to respond to an emergency and arrive on-scene in a timely manner, what are you being paid for? They also have to go through physicals as well, I believe.

- Head of Security: This is already restricted. They have the role of basically all of security, including Officer and Warden if the situation calls for it.

- Captain: This is restricted for several species for several reasons, mainly ethics. They also sometimes have to take up the role of HoS when the position is vacant in emergencies.

- Head of Personnel: I'm actually going to try to get this to be allowed. This role is not one that has to chase after people or respond to emergencies like Medical or Security does.

I honestly don't know why you thought all of these jobs shouldn't be preformed by Dionaea. Only highly demanding security and medical roles should be restricted due to the need to respond to an emergency in a timely manner. None of the other positions have to do so.

Edit: Further discussed with Menown via Discord and got the reasons to as of why they viewed the other roles as affected, and were unrelated to speed as much as they were about mechanics and possible lore-related issues, which will be addressed in other posts, possibly.

G2 Industrials are slower than Dionae and they're tailor made for security roles. I fail to see how speed would be the sole factor in deciding they can't put all that strength and bulk to good use.

I've not the clearest idea to as of why G2Is would be allowed the role, but they make for excellent wardens. It could also be the fact that they are intentionally used as tanks to siege against antags, but I am uncertain. It's just odd.

But like everything else: "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should."

Edit: As I've stated before, officers IRL have to go through tests during their training, which also tests their physical capabilities. You don't have to be Ursain Bold. Just reasonably fast enough to respond based on an average.

[mention]Sharp[/mention] To make it easier on everyone, I would like to change Security Officers into a species-restricted job. I apparently wasn't understanding what you were saying earlier in how you would like this to be enforced, and as it turns out, there was an easier solution for it to be enforced: why have the position open for them if they shouldn't have it in the first place?

And to others, please note that other species have restrictions on jobs as well. Vaurcae have the worst of it. This would only restrict one position from Dionaea, but may end up to two in the end in another suggestion I make regarding EMT/Paramedic roles. It's not restricting them from the entire department. Just one role in it, besides the pre-existing Departmental Head positions.

On Security, I am not fine with Dionae being disallowed from sec officer. But being disallowed from EMT I completely agree. Sec is not all speed--The EMT is.

Continuing from the Medical thread, Security isn't all speed, sure. But like I've been trying to say, it should still be a requirement (again, IRL there's academies that give you physical tests to make sure you're able to preform) because they have to respond to emergencies like EMT to help people in short order. That's 80% of Security's job, especially during antag rounds. When someone goes, "Security, help in Cargo!" and/or backup is called for immediately? Guess who's never going to make it in time. It's a waste of a slot, and Cadets can do guard duties still and the like that don't involve pursuing criminals themselves- that's what they do already, so it's a good compromise to allow Cadet still and the other roles, minus HoS.

A repost from my Dionae HoP suggestion thread: I feel that Dionae should be able to feel at least some core emotions- ones such as fear help further an organism's survival by making them flee in fear from a danger for self-preservation. The others should make them act a little distant, and more complex ones more of an enigma that would cause a bit of curious head-tilting. It would be possible to maybe at least simulate more emotions the more they learn about them- much like how real-life individuals with behavioral disorders can; psycho and sociopaths, for one. They can handle working with people like those with the disorders/disabilities, but because it is known that they all have the same inability, it may be frowned upon for them to be in such a position. But I do agree that I must re-establish their behavior better, and set a standard for acceptable variations to follow.

There are IPC detectives who lack "the human element" on a biological standpoint, and the job in general relies more on deductive reasoning and logic more, and less emotion to get in the way of an unbiased view. Additionally, I've no idea why G2s are allowed as officers, that is not my choice, but I see them more often than not as a warden, and they do an excellent job at being one.

Without much in the way of hard protests, the majority simply being discussion/debate or further feedback, I will be moving forwards with this. Thank you for your time in the beginning everyone, but it is past due that we move on.

Locking and archiving this at Elohi's request.