N8-Toe

So awhile back when we were still on the Aurora there was a movement against rounds that went like this for non sec/command. You would be minding your own business as a doctor, engineer, whatever.. and it'd go to code blue. If anything was said it was "Something is happening", than perhaps later code red, announcement saying get out of the halls.. you'd hear shooting in the distance maybe. if your med someone would show up cuffed, in and out before you could really talk. than code green. You'd have to pull teeth basically to get sec to tell you what was going on, let alone get you in on the action. Thankfully, we moved away from this as a sever and have a culture more focused on "Yes and" RP when it comes to involvement. Sending the bare minimum needed crew for a mission and no more is OOC'ly crap. When things happen on the ship, when there's a hostage situation on the ship, its there, its down the hall, its happening and on radio, even if your the bartender your affected by its proximity. People can stage, they can prep, command may be there organizing, its a place to be, and a place to RP or be involved in RP. Odessey if we're moving to the idea of its proper, and if anything logical to use the minimal teams needed, this is gone. Its happening off ship, away from here. My round as the engineer who didn't get picked to go play with sec is I spend 2 hours just... hanging out? while other people are involved in a cool story I can't play with. Back to the ship example, IRL ships have cooks. its some guys job to make pancakes for people in pirate and contested waters. its some guys job on the Horizon to build forward bases in a possibly dangerous environment, even without a gun. Thats reasonable. I think if we need more "IC logic" to have people going. Lean into it being an exploration ship, maybe everyone who wants to go on a mission has completed a 1 - 2 week safety and basic survival course or something idk. To stave off accusations of this making the ship militarized or giving people an excuse to be a John sol badass, Cruise ship hotel staff usually have five days at least of training on personal survival, first aid, fire suppression, and similar skills. it wouldn't be much to say the company trains people the basics of "Don't wander off into the woods alone" "Don't pet strange alien creatures" "Don't get in the space shuttle marked "Free Phoron". I keep repeating the phrase "Optimizing ourselves out of fun", and that's because that is what this is. It's defeating the chance for fun stories. I've said my piece, so im going to stop with this post. I appreciate you replying and discussing this with me. Just don't want to clog up with us going in a circle.

Look I'm gonna stop the pontification as you say and basicly ask you this, and say again on the original topic. Also, the guys they send to the gulf of Aden are not elite mercenaries, or hardened badasses, they're 20 something able seamen. they're regular people. The guys who dive beneath the ocean to build things in the suffocating dark are just guys, regular people of all walks of life and training undertake dangerous jobs because they agree too, and they get paid to. Also in your example, yeah they have guards to protect them (even if thats not the most common thing). In our context of Aurora the crew has security to protect them? Who is Odyssey for? The Area of Operations is not always going to be 100% safe, your right. But we play 2 hours rounds, give 40 minutes for setup. so we got 80 minutes, to tell a story, deploy, and shake it all out at MOST. I'm not saying the cook should be the first through the breach, I'm saying the crew should setup outposts, or build and entrench where they go. Because that gives a reason for others to arrive to man these outposts. Because its a game, and its fun. Your right! if we wanted minimized casualties sending just sec and a medic or two, maybe an engi to build barricades would do that, but its as I said optimizing ourselves out of gameplay. That outcome becoming the norm for odyssey would imo be a tragedy, as now not only is all of the content centered on sec, command, and friends.. its not even on the ship, its far off with no chance of me being involved if im not playing sec/command. so I'm going to ask this Why should I as Story teller, or readied up actor try to build a big plot with any tension in it, if its just for the guys with guns to come shoot, and they can come alone. Should engineering, or medical aside from paramedics deploy? should science get to go gather samples or if you dont have sec with you its a no go Should people get to deploy after the threats clear to look around? What do you see as the "Average Odyssey gameplay loop". And what role, if any, do the departments play in it On the original idea of SOP. I again want to stress strongly we already struggle to get teams out on time. I dont want to IC argue over strict SOP beyond what I would infer falls under OOC rules of "you need to actually play the game mode and send someone" and "dont do the bare minimum"

its time for a long post ™️ So let's break down the militarization. I actually agree with you on the last part, I wanted to keep the crew armory, and continue to say I want more danger, I want off maps to be empowered to screw with horizon. I think our setting has been written to be dangerous, it should play like that too. We're not the military on ship! thats true! but we also dont all wanna die in deep space far from help. Your right that we're in a have your cake and eat it when it comes to direct "your going to war" kinda stuff. But going on an away mission isn't militarization. Just as the current norm is we dont' know that "today is the day" with antags. the ship getting attacked by pirates, a traitor among the crew gunning down the captain, these are wild things our characters have very likely not experienced, as from their IC perspective. every day has been mundane. This allows us to have these moments, and we should see away missions the same IC. the Horizon does these, it salvages wrecks, investigates things, and communicates and trades with other ships.. its all been mundane and safe, so why is today any different? Its not disregarding self-preservation because our characters should not be entering into the round with the belief and idea "Its rage cage time". and well.. what if it is an ambush, what if there is a hostile creature? that's what the fine folks in sec are payed to handle. Hanger techs, miners, ops supports the crew with supplies. when we're dealing with odyssey this actually becomes a thing. Let them go down Science investigates things, documents critters, answers questions? Perfect, they should go Service keeps the crew fed, and their facilities clean and cared for. We all gotta eat, and I'd rather not eat MRE's if I can get a meal hot and ready from a field canteen Engineering builds bases, stabilizes wrecks, affects entry into places. they should be down there setting up a base for the crew to occupy Security protects the crew. It is not a kill team, they're not soldiers, your right! but its their job to keep the xenofauna from munching on the supply guys leg. Medical keeps the above people alive if harmed If I am the Captain, I dont know that THIS away mission is the one thats gonna be a blood bath, I dont know this mission is gonna have the thing among the survivors who tries to infiltrate our camp and eat people. I know I need to deploy an away team, I know I have a mission parameter. So I'm gonna send the people down there, then the needed people to support those people. Build a base, have security secure a section of a wreck, or a village, or have engineering whole sale build a compound or outpost. These challenges of "Xenofauna" or "Maybe a guy in the woods with a gun" is an obsticle the crew work together to overcome, building walls and spotlights, security securing entry ways, and having the facilities to manage an emergency. I mean what if the Xenofauna grabs a guy? we need a medical team on the ground to help him dont we? which needs engineers to build it, a supply team to equip it, and so on. And on "why would a civilian XYZ go" because its their job, they signed up for this, they get paid to do this, they're not office workers they're crewman on a deep space exploration vessel. They have implicitly signed up for that risk, and likely have had a 20-minute PowerPoint saying "don't wander off alone on an alien world" at some point in their career So what if it escalates? it gets dicey, there is a monster, there are pirates, there's a bomb? Well shit maybe we need to lock down the base! maybe we need to step up patrols or act as a team, or worst comes to worst? we need to evacuate personal. All of these things are conflict and are fun. I would rather playing as a surgeon, or a hanger tech, or an engineer. Go down to the planet, be involved and stay around the base, and be evacuated when it turns to hell. I'd rather as a player risk dying if that spooky shape shifting monster escaped from the lab gets into the base, than just sit in the bar on the horizon hearing the cool stuff im missing out on. We should not Optimize our way out of fun. Is sending the gaggle of people to build a base the most "optimal" way of handling most odysseys? not at all, but its fun, and I want to have fun.

Honestly, I'm not sure we need an SoP for away missions. By their nature the missions are different round to round. Anything beyond * You need to send a team *Dont send the bare minimum Will become a barrier to RP imo. We dont need moments of bickering over SoP minuta or worse "We can't go/can't go yet as we haven't ticked this box" and on why is the cook going down? well we gotta eat don't we? just let people come up with their justification, flimsy as it may be, to be down there

People should die, when it makes sense, they would die. Billy catches 6 rounds of 7.62 to the chest, if he dies? well.. Billy was gonna die. People dying is not the end of their gameplay experience on Aurora. They can be a ghost role, they can respawn (and the respawn timer should be lower), they can spectate with the other ghosties. But death is not something to be avoided. you bring up a good point of the move to "Zero mortality" being an issue, both pre and post brainmed. Death should be embraced as a consequence of risk and combat. Gunfights are cheap if everyones just gonna live, big massive dangers on an away team is cheap is everyones just gonna be... fine? no matter what. on option 2. I feel that will just incentive people constantly ignoring injuries if pushing it isn't putting them at an action disadvantage. Otherwise, its gonna turn into nuke rounds having people slapping splints and meds on, going back to fight. I like your idea of a recovery period though. So I got my proposal, and to build off features we already have. And hit a sweet spot between 1 and 2. Scarring and how I learned to love risk - Organ scarring, we should lower the threshold for it, and increase the debuffs. If you catch bullets, a knife, or a critical wound your effective total organ HP should be lowered in proportion to how bad it was. Your still in the round, but your weakened from your injury and getting harmed again drastically raises your chance of death. Sec officer McGee doesn't get 3 open heart surgeries in a merc round. This lowers the attrition advantage the ship has in a way that is tactile and intuitive. You got injured once, getting injured again will be worse. The case for lethality and damage. - Guns should hurt. Getting shot should be a life-threatening experience, getting stabbed is messy, violent, and lethal. People getting killed by the antag isn't an issue. If I am the Captain and the antag turns the corner and puts a grouping of bullets into my chest or head while shouting "die corporate pig!", its likely I should die or be badly wounded. And thats perfectly ok. We are an RP server, but Roleplay is not the opposite of violence. Conflict and action can be as much story and roleplay beats as the best of emotes or words at the bar. It would be a shame for us to move away from death that will lesson our ability to tell compelling stories. Incapacitation should have a place, but real actual death should not be more rare, if anything, we need it more.

we dont always know if a round will be high body count or intensity. if your in what seems like anice slow RP round and it turns into a disaster or combat. how do you think you'll manage, or will you head to cryo

I think your a good Roleplayer, a good writer, and an active member of the community. I do have hesitation similar to what goolie said regarding antags. As CMO your going to be interacting with them and perhaps even a front and center target Further I agree and like your answer of a head of staff as a guiding force, but do remember command does involve commanding. Dont hesitate to give firm orders and say what is and is not to happen. In medical as CMO al of what you'll find yourself needing to do is prevent tunnel vision. Making sure you have people where they're needed and while this can be hands off. sometimes you gotta be giving hard direct orders, or assigning people to patiants. So just have the confidence for that! Overall I think you deserve a trial to show us all how you'll do so I am going to +1 tentatively

it'd be more fun. I am here for fun. if a player is inhibiting the round, I can ask a neutral mod to do something. go back again and read over. If CCIA should have any functon it should be in the pursuit of making things fun. adding to the RP than being the death of it

Punishment Punishment Punishment Punishment why is it about punishment. Why does everything need a punishment? It is again creation a funnel to channel RP into punishment. What is this giving us? It is as we have previously said putting a chill on RP, even those supporting IR's in its current form have said it may be a chilling effect. So how does this make this game more fun. because it is a game, a roleplay game. We have this massive setting of frictional, conflicting groups and movements. We have dregs and all of this wonderful lore and slang, we have sinta pirates, mictlani rebels, dominia hardliners, creven gangsters, and other interesting concepts. Yet we're here saying if you make one of these, and you make them abit coarse... well you deserve that punishment. Thank you for embracing the lore and the setting, thank you for creating a character and creating conflict and RP content in a round. We're in return going to subject you to an opaque court and punishment that has an OOC element too it. As this is being presented as CCIA punishment in leiu of administrative punishment. Making this a, atleast partially, OOC enforcement mechanism. but do we need that mechanism? Martin the Martian miner gets in a fight with Charlie the Creven in the bar over not important. Do you know what Martin's punishment is? John Sol security officer and his three friends show up and beat martin his rights, put him in the brig or fine him. The Captain, XO, or OM come tell him off. they say the damage is coming out of his check, and if his next ore load isn't bursting? well his ass is going to be scrubbing the hull. Martin has received an IC punishment. There has been an action and a reaction. This has added to the round, created conflict, created RP, created fun. So why do they need punishment? why do they need to get subject to an OOC penalty for roleplaying. Detective Callahan is drinking, slipping bourbon into his coffee as he monologues about some Dame in kongyang that did him dirty. Maybe he drinks abit too much. the HoS can pull him into his office, tell him to clean up his act, make him go see Doctor Denise in medical, perhaps he sits down and talks about this dame, helps him move on from drinking. And if she shows up to a case or an incident drunk? Well its his gun and his badge. Action, reaction. There was consequence in round and in roleplay. Why does this demand punishment? what fun is gained from that? Jay the Janitor calls Carla the Cook a lizard. So they wont serve Jay, and people in the kitchen eating who saw this were murmuring, or getting mad. Jay's action had consequence, no hot food fro him, people think he's a jerk. and the Captain or XO may pull him aside and tell him those are inside thoughts. Again, action, reaction. Why is punishment needed? Why do these actions scream out for punishment? have they made the game worse? have they harmed the game and story? forget for a moment the lore and setting, forget the SCC's scale yet seeming interest in the most minor issues. Why do any of these deserve OOC punishment? @OolongCowyou keep posting about how this isn't how IR's work. but go give the archive a look? also IR/CCIA policy on what is or isn't deserving of punishment is not on the wiki, it isn't written anywhere. And if it is not somewhere a new player could see and know it. it does not for all intents and purpose exist. so it is irrelevant to this discussion. Conflict is acceptable, even if you are not an antag, but it needs to be believable, and meet roleplay standards. The average Joe will not simply decide to blow up their workplace one day. Keep in mind, the more drastic the action, the more motivated your character has to be to commit to it, and the consequences it brings. Unless you’re an antagonist, this motivation has to be developed through roleplay on the server: backstory cannot legitimize drastic things, such as trying to assault security staff because of a bad childhood, for example. It is also very much encouraged that you roleplay out the consequences to such conflict where possible. Only escalate conflict in a realistic manner - some characters might overreact, but you would not realistically go berserk or attempt to kill someone if they stole your prized pen, for instance. Again, your character must be motivated enough to commit to more drastic action, as they undertake it. Killing in self-defense in NOT preferred. If possible, always try to flee, or disable your opponent. If your character does commit a murder in a canon setting, please roleplay out the effects it would have on your character as well. All events of conflict will be considered canon unless otherwise agreed upon by both parties or spurred by a round antagonist-related action. Duty Officer involvement may result in a specific conflict being made canon regardless of player agreement, as seen fit. This still does not exempt you from rules on metagaming - your character does not acquire knowledge of syndicate items, xenos, etc. simply because they have interacted with them in previous rounds. above is the rules for conflict that are relevant to this conversation. These are already governed by the server moderators and game admins. The enforcement already exists, the window of acceptibility is already set. a hanger tech who guts the captain because he got told to stop smoking is F1 worthy. we dont need CCIA as this snail mail pace moderation team atop the one we have. and if you think a character is CONSISTENTLY making the round lesser and just inhibiting others from RP'ing? file a character complaint. So N8, you may ask? what should we do with CCIA and IR's I hear you asking? I dont think I'd loose sleep if it just full on went away. but also I can see some merit to the idea. idea 1: We just drastically raise the threshold for an IR. Perhaps only Command or the Captain/XO can file them. perhaps they can only be filed for long term ongoing grievences of critical hampering to ship operations. IE an embezzlement ring idea 2: we make IR's more in round. perhaps command carries out the investigation and turns in their report to CCIA. Or if CCIA needs to interview or show up, we allow lying again, we do group intrviews, we do meetings with command, meetings in the workplace ect ect. Make a mini event out of it all in round. let me burn evidence, let me get my friend to swearsies for realsies I'm clean. Perhaps they show up unannounced, poke around, put people on edge. The concept of corporate occasionally giving its baleful eye a glance horizons way can be neat, can be used to be fun and reinforce the setting. but it should imo be only for worthwhile things that harm the ship or its mission, and things that CCIA being involved in itself makes it more fun. Not just the sudden end to something that is fun

I'm going to quote Powder yet again as they are just so on target here. This is again being framed as the natural outcome of IC, is a funnel to a punishment mechanism. I want IC bad behavior, I want conflict, I want tension, and I want characters who may be abit rough around the edge. if player is playing a character that is consistently preventing the round from progressing. Make a character complaint. if your an HoS and got an alchoholic investigator? RP with them, suspend them maybe, maybe tell them they gotta talk to a doctor or psych, assign a sober buddy. RP with it and tell a story with it. if you IR them, it becomes... what? an interview, some opaque process, and a ruling. Thats not fun, and I come here for fun. And the hard drinking detective is a trope as old as detectives, play with it, sounds fun. I want ex pirate characters who are hard drinking, hard swearing, rough around the edges but trying to fit into a new environment for a better life. I want characters who have strong convictions and will let you know them. I want characters who will bend the rules when they think their boss isn't looking. I want characters who are going to be abit more coarse, who may be rule breakers to a degree, perhaps even criminal sometimes! what do I keep seeing happen? they're here for like. a month or three before getting binned by CCIA. thats no fun, and I doubt their player enjoyed it. As again, we are funneling conflict RP, beneficial conflict RP, into a punishment funnel. you as a player are being penalized for not just playing a go with the flow type. a few final points. was Bava's story fun because of Bava? or because of CCIA. did CCIA make these things fun? or did the characters actually doing the thing. and finally, the game admins are ALREADY responsible for RP standards in a round. this isn't some new thing on them

I'm going to quote this here. very specifically "A pipeline is created funneling natural and even beneficial conflict RP directly into a punishment mechanism" @Bear your response and defense of the current IR process is to me lacking. and its lacking because of the above. it is a defense of a pipeline to punishment for roleplaying. The server moderators and game admins already enforce standards of behavior, and play. Other characters in game may also enforce this in the manner of punishment or suspension. Why do we need another layer of enforcement on the player. You even acknowledge this may be harming organic conflict RP. and I just winna ask, why am I here? why am I playing SS13 here on aurora. Its for the lore, the conflict, the stakes, the world. all of these things' setup RP conflict. Our amazing lore has opposing factions and questions, our events and arcs are setup on these lore conflicts. Yet then we have a system that punishes the player for possibly partaking in this and building off it. I do not come here to RP out being a 9 to 5 corporate worker who only does things I would do IRL. We want believable and grounded characters, but we also need some room for drama here. some room for conflict. And right here we are funneling that RP to punishment. and that punishment is OOC You do not deny this. You call CCIA and IR's a way to enforce accountability and standards. well what are these standards? you mention these things about wanting things to be handled in round, and how that affects the process. but.. where is this written? Where on the wiki can I go and see the standards my IR is judged against, and where on the wiki can I go and see the rubric, or see the punishments, or go on the wiki and learn anything? I can't. Its not there. The game rules page details rules on creating and RP'ing a character. it does not mention CCIA. There is a lack of transparency, and I dislike how your response is essentially "yeah its opaque and that's not changing" to quote another great comment here. There's no information a new player can even find on how CCIA makes decisions or what can even be decided. its a secret court with unknown rules and standards. if anything needs to change, its that. I know the standards the moderators judge me against, its on the server rules page. I can click a button in game at any time and see them.

that isn't how this works. you can IR if you disagree with the head of staffs ruling, you can IR if they make a ruling. you can IR without telling a head of staff. There is no rule against it and as the process is so opaque none of us know if these things affect it internally like what? what could come up that can't be handled by the ships captain or security in any way

My view of IR's and the current implementation of CCIA is fully a negative one. IR's in my opinion are a chilling effect on roleplay, they inhibit petty conflict or disputes in the RP. It extends conflict in a boring, unfun, and opaque way that removes player agency. We have such a deep setting and lore rife with conflict, but acting on said conflict could get you slapped into an IR. I am very much in the belief the ship and the crew should live and die by their own sword, that they should be making decisions and actions in the round. IR's break that, anytime anyone utters the word "IR" IC in round my engagement or investment in the conflict or RP going on dies. On the chilling effect, lets say I've spent a few rounds in the past building a rivalry with another character and this round in the bar has been drinking and political arguments are mars, or Adhomai or whatever until it boils over into a bar fight. An organic, RP'ed out conflict. I'll already face IC consequence for it, security may arrest me, command may suspend me, may fine me or dock my pay whatever. There has been roleplay, conflict, and a consequence of it goes off the rails but I'm not going to do that, because if I get IR'ed by one of the people in the bar. suddenly I gotta attend an unfun interview process with my limited play time, and I need to wait for some unseen process to decide if I get to keep playing that character, or told if I wanna play that character I need to play a role I dont want to. A process I have no influence too and has no "game" to it. Player conflict or RP conflict is inherently disincentivized when an IR can suck you into an unfun vortex. it also undermines action in the round. Another character is bothering me, they're talking smack about the faction my character supports, and called me out. I could retaliate, talk to the captain, raise a stink with the consular. all of these are in the roleplay and bring interest to the round, and IR does not Further I do not need to be a party to the conflict to file an IR. I can file an IR if I see other characters getting into conflict with each other. So not only do I need to be concerned with the RP conflict im involved in, I need to be concerned any of the bystanders around me dont decide "eh, send them to the RP Gulag". the VAST majority of IR's I read on the forum here I will firmly say could have been solved in round by the captain or a head of staff, and the remaining are either RP conflict that should have stayed in round, things not worthy of being a conflict at all, and very very rarely something that a poke by a moderator may have worked. Your coworkers got in a verbal fight? Head of staff Security officer and engineer are feuding over politics and one shoved the other? Tell the captain Two solarians came to blows over the political situatin in mars over beers in the bar? let security handle it all of these issues can be handled fully inround. CCIA adds nothing of value or story to any of these scenarios.

at the Jaws of life PR. I'd make sure they have atleast two so if there are more than one tech they're not fighting over it

for body or helmet cams. Perhaps requiring it to be on the same Z level to use. so encouraging the crew to setup a command post where ever they're going, or on the shuttle