BurgerBB Posted May 28, 2018 Posted May 28, 2018 Science is currently shit. It's not about research as much as following an actual (outside) guide while throwing things in a machine, having the machine do the work for you, and then doing absolutely fucking nothing. It's tedious. It's annoying. It's unrewarding. It needs to be worked on. Other servers have had this problem in the past, and they have dealt with it by half-assedly implementing an EXPERIMENTER which gives levels but is much more tedious/annoying because there is RNG or some garbage. I have a totally doable and codeable suggestion, which is the following: Make it just mostly automatic. Use a computer, and a fuckton of computing servers to calculate loads of equations irl. Copy how a MILF AI does research by making it so they can focus on one thing at a time. For example, It would take 1 minute to research to level 2 of something. It would take 2 minutes to research to level 3. 5 minutes to level 4. 10 minutes to level 5. 15 minutes to level 6. 30 minutes to level 7. 60 minutes to level 8. However, usually every 5-10 minutes, a random problem will occur and research will halt. It will take a scientist to solve the problem, and resume research, so you can't just set something to research for 30 minutes and fuck off doing something else. "But Burger! There are like 7 research levels! It would take 7 hours to research everything to max!" Thats where items come in. Trying to research an item to level 6? Put in a level 6 item before you start the research to cut the time in half. "But Burger that still makes it 3.5 hours to research everything to max!" That's where other departments come in. Trying to research a level 5 of something and have a level 6 item? Boom, you're instantly upgraded to level 5. Why not level 6 you ask? Because science should not be able to jerk itself off. "But Burger we need upgraded parts REALLY FAST, you get those at level 5! That takes too long!" The best parts are at level 5. The current meta is to just skip the low tier parts and go straight for the best, which is dumb. Use the lesser parts, but if you REALLY want the research levels now, you can now purchase research disks at cargo for research, up to level 5. Depending on the technology, it will cost anywhere between 10,000 credits and 50,000 credits for a technology disk. While on the topic of research levels, research levels of items will now be completely reworked to be less specific. The current trees are: #define TECH_MATERIAL "materials" #define TECH_ENGINEERING "engineering" #define TECH_PHORON "phorontech" #define TECH_POWER "powerstorage" #define TECH_BLUESPACE "bluespace" #define TECH_BIO "biotech" #define TECH_COMBAT "combat" #define TECH_MAGNET "magnets" #define TECH_DATA "programming" #define TECH_ILLEGAL "syndicate" #define TECH_ARCANE "arcane" I will be removing most of those, and they will only be under: Material Technology Bio Technology Energy Technology Bluespace Technology Weapon Technology Illegal Technology Xeno Technology Xenotechnology and Illegal technology cannot be researched using the automatic methods, or be bought from cargo. Those levels can be gained from traitor stuff. Thoughts?
ShameOnTurtles Posted May 28, 2018 Posted May 28, 2018 Not sure how I feel about this, but I'd be very interested in seeing how it plays out on server. What kind of errors were you thinking of when you say the process can encounter a problem? Would you be able to skip researching stages? For example, researching straight from level 4 to level 6, taking 25 minutes, instead of separately going to 5 then 6?
BurgerBB Posted May 28, 2018 Author Posted May 28, 2018 Not sure how I feel about this, but I'd be very interested in seeing how it plays out on server. What kind of errors were you thinking of when you say the process can encounter a problem? Would you be able to skip researching stages? For example, researching straight from level 4 to level 6, taking 25 minutes, instead of separately going to 5 then 6? Errors would be either mechanical or research wise. Current Ideas: Compile errors, requires a quick interaction to solve on the research server. Computer errors, requires someone to travel to the server room and do a quick interaction. And you can skip research stages. If you're at level 3 materials, and you introduce a level 6 materials item, then the research will instantly jump to level 5 materials.
ShameOnTurtles Posted May 28, 2018 Posted May 28, 2018 Not sure how I feel about this, but I'd be very interested in seeing how it plays out on server. What kind of errors were you thinking of when you say the process can encounter a problem? Would you be able to skip researching stages? For example, researching straight from level 4 to level 6, taking 25 minutes, instead of separately going to 5 then 6? Errors would be either mechanical or research wise. Current Ideas: Compile errors, requires a quick interaction to solve on the research server. Computer errors, requires someone to travel to the server room and do a quick interaction. And you can skip research stages. If you're at level 3 materials, and you introduce a level 6 materials item, then the research will instantly jump to level 5 materials. Thanks for the quick answer. Possibly another error could be that it needs a certain item or chemical. Would emags have any interaction with the research machine? Edit: would it breaking be locked to once every 10 or so minutes at most? I feel like it would be like this to prevent RNG really being annoying, because it's bound to happen.
BurgerBB Posted May 28, 2018 Author Posted May 28, 2018 Not sure how I feel about this, but I'd be very interested in seeing how it plays out on server. What kind of errors were you thinking of when you say the process can encounter a problem? Would you be able to skip researching stages? For example, researching straight from level 4 to level 6, taking 25 minutes, instead of separately going to 5 then 6? Errors would be either mechanical or research wise. Current Ideas: Compile errors, requires a quick interaction to solve on the research server. Computer errors, requires someone to travel to the server room and do a quick interaction. And you can skip research stages. If you're at level 3 materials, and you introduce a level 6 materials item, then the research will instantly jump to level 5 materials. Thanks for the quick answer. Possibly another error could be that it needs a certain item or chemical. Would emags have any interaction with the research machine? Edit: would it breaking be locked to once every 10 or so minutes at most? I feel like it would be like this to prevent RNG really being annoying, because it's bound to happen. I'd start out with limiting errors to one every 10 minutes, but they have a chance to trigger every 5. Emag/Emp interactions are usually an afterthought, but since I'm thinking of it now it would have to be something fun. Maybe sends a computer virus full of skrell porn or something that cancels research progress for the currently researched item, I don't know.
Bauser Posted May 28, 2018 Posted May 28, 2018 It sounds like a fine rework, I'm just not sure how it solves the problem of research being tedious, annoying, or unrewarding. It's still based on timers and throwing in items, it adopts some of the RNG you expressed disdain for, and the rewards for success are the same as they are now.
Asheram Posted May 28, 2018 Posted May 28, 2018 +1 1. I like this idea. Research is busywork and this would let research play with the things instead of one dedicated scientist loading junk into the deconstructor in order to appease Robotics. 2. Depending on the difficulty of dealing with the servers, there could be interesting gameplay there, especially if you expand on them further. 3. It could lead to the creation of an entirely different antag/event mode where an AI spawns inside the research servers instead of having the regular old AI becoming malf, or something similar.
LanceLynxx Posted May 28, 2018 Posted May 28, 2018 Eh.. I don't see how this improves anything, just makes it worse. Not only is individual skill expertise removed (besides me, I've seen 2 scientists I've seen taking under 10 minutes whereas a noob takes around more than 30), but also adds 1) Time-based mechanics. These are just not fun. 2) RNG errors. Which is also not fun. Ask any medic or roboticist who has stabbed a patient with a tool to the head. 3) Removal of an actual OOC skill ceiling. Sure this is more of a memorization skill, but a skill nonetheless that rewards those who put effort into it. 4) BUYING tech disks makes no sense if we're here to do research ourselves; Why would we get tech from someone else? In the end, it is still doing absolutely fucking nothing. It's tedious. It's annoying. It's unrewarding.
Guest Marlon Phoenix Posted May 28, 2018 Posted May 28, 2018 Science is currently shit. It's not about research as much as following an actual (outside) guide while throwing things in a machine, having the machine do the work for you, and then doing absolutely fucking nothing. It's tedious. It's annoying. It's unrewarding. It needs to be worked on. Other servers have had this problem in the past, and they have dealt with it by half-assedly implementing an EXPERIMENTER which gives levels but is much more tedious/annoying because there is RNG or some garbage. I have a totally doable and codeable suggestion, which is the following: Make it just mostly automatic. Use a computer, and a fuckton of computing servers to calculate loads of equations irl. Copy how a MILF AI does research by making it so they can focus on one thing at a time. For example, It would take 1 minute to research to level 2 of something. It would take 2 minutes to research to level 3. 5 minutes to level 4. 10 minutes to level 5. 15 minutes to level 6. 30 minutes to level 7. 60 minutes to level 8. However, usually every 5-10 minutes, a random problem will occur and research will halt. It will take a scientist to solve the problem, and resume research, so you can't just set something to research for 30 minutes and fuck off doing something else. "But Burger! There are like 7 research levels! It would take 7 hours to research everything to max!" Thats where items come in. Trying to research an item to level 6? Put in a level 6 item before you start the research to cut the time in half. "But Burger that still makes it 3.5 hours to research everything to max!" That's where other departments come in. Trying to research a level 5 of something and have a level 6 item? Boom, you're instantly upgraded to level 5. Why not level 6 you ask? Because science should not be able to jerk itself off. "But Burger we need upgraded parts REALLY FAST, you get those at level 5! That takes too long!" The best parts are at level 5. The current meta is to just skip the low tier parts and go straight for the best, which is dumb. Use the lesser parts, but if you REALLY want the research levels now, you can now purchase research disks at cargo for research, up to level 5. Depending on the technology, it will cost anywhere between 10,000 credits and 50,000 credits for a technology disk. While on the topic of research levels, research levels of items will now be completely reworked to be less specific. The current trees are: #define TECH_MATERIAL "materials" #define TECH_ENGINEERING "engineering" #define TECH_PHORON "phorontech" #define TECH_POWER "powerstorage" #define TECH_BLUESPACE "bluespace" #define TECH_BIO "biotech" #define TECH_COMBAT "combat" #define TECH_MAGNET "magnets" #define TECH_DATA "programming" #define TECH_ILLEGAL "syndicate" #define TECH_ARCANE "arcane" I will be removing most of those, and they will only be under: Material Technology Bio Technology Energy Technology Bluespace Technology Weapon Technology Illegal Technology Xeno Technology Xenotechnology and Illegal technology cannot be researched using the automatic methods, or be bought from cargo. Those levels can be gained from traitor stuff. Thoughts? https://forums.aurorastation.org/viewtopic.php?p=80797#p80797
MoondancerPony Posted May 28, 2018 Posted May 28, 2018 Eh.. I don't see how this improves anything, just makes it worse. Not only is individual skill expertise removed (besides me, I've seen 2 scientists I've seen taking under 10 minutes whereas a noob takes around more than 30), but also adds 1) Time-based mechanics. These are just not fun. 2) RNG errors. Which is also not fun. Ask any medic or roboticist who has stabbed a patient with a tool to the head. 3) Removal of an actual OOC skill ceiling. Sure this is more of a memorization skill, but a skill nonetheless that rewards those who put effort into it. 4) BUYING tech disks makes no sense if we're here to do research ourselves; Why would we get tech from someone else? In the end, it is still doing absolutely fucking nothing. It's tedious. It's annoying. It's unrewarding. I agree with this completely. RNG errors are not fun. Time-based mechanics are incredibly tedious and not fun. Not rewarding player skill is not fun. Buying tech also makes zero sense, as well as your assertion that "science should not be able to jerk itself off". Their purpose is to research things, not to buy research disks and wait 30 minutes. Also, your removal of most of the research categories. No. Absolutely not, that would take so much time to re-do for every item as well as cripple a system that works fine as-is.
HunterRS Posted June 1, 2018 Posted June 1, 2018 As a research main, I am always open for ways to change RnD, but putting it to an time based system or a RnG based system is one of the things I do not like. I really believe it should be the players, instead of the system, that make it fun. Forcing the players to stand and wait for something while it takes forever will get people away from RnD, much like the new system. A time base system will feel less rewarding because people will wait for small things. Like, whats the point of doing RnD to get to level 5 or 6 when the server is just going to restart? We will barely be able to do half the shit we normally do. I also agree with lance's statements, why do WE have to buy stuff when we are the scientists?
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