BurgerBB Posted April 16, 2019 Posted April 16, 2019 BYOND Key: BurgerBB Staff BYOND Key: TrishanaStalker, Drago Reason for complaint: Unfair Treatment/Ban Evidence/logs/etc: The permaban I received was done by a disgustingly inactive admin who is known to get drunk on the job and fuck around in OOC, prayers, and admin tools. Trish is known to show hostility towards me in ooc, discord, and the forums with remarks such as "xd organ damage" in serious environments in the suggestion forums or general belittlements elsewhere. Given their inactivity, especially when the ban was granted, and obvious opinion of me, I do not think that they were fit to give a ban in the first place or have any sort of judgement related to it. In the thread itself, I admitted that I fucked up. I admitted that I have behavioral issues. I admitted that it is ia problem. I shown steps to avoid further incidents but because the peanut gallery could not resist being armchair psychologists, so 90% of the thread was just then making comments and me telling them how wrong they were. In the thread, I believe at least 5 people who were not irrelevant to the ban complaint commented in the thread. When reported, they were not dealt with in a timely matter. Someone event kept replying after their posts were being deleted so that told me that no punishment or really anything to deter them from posting again was dealt with. It was a thread filled with absolute negativity towards me, and I do not think it was a fair environment for judge me in. It was a drama-filled infestation that acted more like a kangaroo court than an actual, serious ban request. I think I have every right to be pissed off and defend myself from these remarks. When the amount of people who deal with it I'm obviously going to display some aggression and tell them to fuck off. If I acted out of line, I would get the same treatment by staff and players so I think that's absoultely fair game. The worst part about it is only one of my points were addressed. I've received one question from drago, one reply from drago, and none from Trishina. Since they're not being addressed, and I think the ban itself was done unfairly, I'm just going to make a staff complaint. It was, by definition, a kangaroo court because 0 evidence or serious discussion was presented or shown other than my comment about coalf. Here are my main gripes about the thread and the ban, that were from the previous thread. Quote I want the following points to be addressed. I regret my behavior on discord and I know what I will be doing to prevent future incidents from happening. I regret my behavior on the forums and I will probably be avoiding them all together since I have other servers to play on with mechanism that interest me. I regret my behavior on OOC and I will probably be avoiding it all together since I could just play another server if the round is boring as shit. I'm sorry for any and all issues that I cause as a result of my criticisms, constructive and unconstructive, on the server. I've never been banned on discord. I've never been banned in game. I've been banned for a total of 10 days on the forums. 3 days for racking up 3 minor warnings on the forums about behavior. 7 days for Garnacus' deal. I've never been mechanically warned for my comments in OOC about end-of-round stuff. I've been verbally warned once for my comments in OOC about end-of-round stuff, and this a result of an ahelp I made about someone in the middle of the round talking shit for no real reason. I've been told that I'm right about the OOC comments about end-of-round stuff but I should phrase them nicer. I've never been told past this ban by staff that my comments were abusive, just annoying. I've received 7 total warnings in my 2 years of being here. 6 were minor, 1 was major. Out of those minor warnings, 1 was about mistreating other players. I have never went out of my way to specifically target and berate the people messing up as antag. I want the following questions to be answered. Why was a permaban necessary? If a permaban was necessary, why was it chosen over something like a lesser time-based ban? Why wasn't I asked any questions by the people handling the complaint, during the complaint? Why was the ban handled by a seriously inactive administrator? With exception to this permaban, how come none of my OOC criticisms didn't receive any sort of punishment? Was the person who made the ban request's history every considered at any point at all when they made the complaint? Which information in the ban request was a factor in my ban? In short, I think permabanning someone for behavioral issues without any serious discussion at all happening before the permaban, during the permaban, and probably after the permaban is an absolutely terrible way to go because at this point I don't know what you expect from me past admitting my guilt and promising not to do it again. I'm not saying I'm doing both of those things because it's expected, but it's the right thing to do, but I also strongly believe that it is also the right thing to do to point out the amount of bullshit I put up with in that thread and honestly the ban itself. So my entire point of this staff complaint is: Yes. I fucked up by being rude to people of the community on discord, on the forums, and OOC. Yes. I fucked up in the thread responding to people and I took note of to never actually reply to them unless it's okayed by a mod. I do not think it's worth a permaban because my attitude isn't worth a permaban. I don't do things like tell people to kill themselves or go out of my way to attack people. I do not think it's worth permaban as there are worse people with worse behavioral problems that exist. I do not think that the judgement done by the peanut gallery and by staff handling the unappeal in the thread was fair or impartial. I do not think that the ban request itself was fair or impartial. There wasn't enough communication between me nor staff regarding this. I think the mindset people have is that since I'm talking more about how unfair the ban request is, it means that I'm not remorseful or something or that I don't actually feel sorry. This is false. The thing with arguments is that disagreements over things tend to take up significantly more space and that usually gets the most attention. However, I think there are only so many times where I can say that I fucked up without devaluing it.
Lady Fowl Posted April 16, 2019 Posted April 16, 2019 1 hour ago, BurgerBB said: BYOND Key: BurgerBB Staff BYOND Key: TrishanaStalker, Drago Reason for complaint: Unfair Treatment/Ban Evidence/logs/etc: The permaban I received was done by a disgustingly inactive admin who is known to get drunk on the job and fuck around in OOC, prayers, and admin tools. Trish is known to show hostility towards me in ooc, discord, and the forums with remarks such as "xd organ damage" in serious environments in the suggestion forums or general belittlements elsewhere. Given their inactivity, especially when the ban was granted, and obvious opinion of me, I do not think that they were fit to give a ban in the first place or have any sort of judgement related to it. In the thread itself, I admitted that I fucked up. I admitted that I have behavioral issues. I admitted that it is ia problem. I shown steps to avoid further incidents but because the peanut gallery could not resist being armchair psychologists, so 90% of the thread was just then making comments and me telling them how wrong they were. In the thread, I believe at least 5 people who were not irrelevant to the ban complaint commented in the thread. When reported, they were not dealt with in a timely matter. Someone event kept replying after their posts were being deleted so that told me that no punishment or really anything to deter them from posting again was dealt with. It was a thread filled with absolute negativity towards me, and I do not think it was a fair environment for judge me in. It was a drama-filled infestation that acted more like a kangaroo court than an actual, serious ban request. I think I have every right to be pissed off and defend myself from these remarks. When the amount of people who deal with it I'm obviously going to display some aggression and tell them to fuck off. If I acted out of line, I would get the same treatment by staff and players so I think that's absoultely fair game. The worst part about it is only one of my points were addressed. I've received one question from drago, one reply from drago, and none from Trishina. Since they're not being addressed, and I think the ban itself was done unfairly, I'm just going to make a staff complaint. It was, by definition, a kangaroo court because 0 evidence or serious discussion was presented or shown other than my comment about coalf. Here are my main gripes about the thread and the ban, that were from the previous thread. In short, I think permabanning someone for behavioral issues without any serious discussion at all happening before the permaban, during the permaban, and probably after the permaban is an absolutely terrible way to go because at this point I don't know what you expect from me past admitting my guilt and promising not to do it again. I'm not saying I'm doing both of those things because it's expected, but it's the right thing to do, but I also strongly believe that it is also the right thing to do to point out the amount of bullshit I put up with in that thread and honestly the ban itself. So my entire point of this staff complaint is: Yes. I fucked up by being rude to people of the community on discord, on the forums, and OOC. Yes. I fucked up in the thread responding to people and I took note of to never actually reply to them unless it's okayed by a mod. I do not think it's worth a permaban because my attitude isn't worth a permaban. I don't do things like tell people to kill themselves or go out of my way to attack people. I do not think it's worth permaban as there are worse people with worse behavioral problems that exist. I do not think that the judgement done by the peanut gallery and by staff handling the unappeal in the thread was fair or impartial. I do not think that the ban request itself was fair or impartial. There wasn't enough communication between me nor staff regarding this. I think the mindset people have is that since I'm talking more about how unfair the ban request is, it means that I'm not remorseful or something or that I don't actually feel sorry. This is false. The thing with arguments is that disagreements over things tend to take up significantly more space and that usually gets the most attention. However, I think there are only so many times where I can say that I fucked up without devaluing it. I dont wanna draw this out into a long long post, but essentially, the appeal was denied because, me nor tish, or really anybody felt the apology and feelings itself were genuine and were going to be followed up upon. I chose to make this ban in a way that gives you a easy way to appeal it instead of just outright perma banning you. It was designed in mind that when you are actually ready to appeal it. This was posted in the appeal, but things like this were said aswell Im going to be honest and say that, him if he was actualy trying to play psychologist is wrong and he shouldn't, but the type of attitude present is still clear, that you don't understand fully why this ban was placed in this manner, and why it was placed in the first place, as a majority of the appeal and the ban request was re-directing at others such as coalf and vtc and sonicgotnuked. I agree, that we need to take a more hard line stance on how toxic this place can be, but you are not contributing to that by not setting the example for what you want to see. I had hoped that everytime I checked the appeal it would click, and we can start moving forward, but I believe you arent ready yet. You have the potential inside you, I just havent seen it shine out yet, nor has tish.
Featured Comment Alberyk Posted April 16, 2019 Featured Comment Posted April 16, 2019 Hello, I will handle this. And fair warning to anyone that wants to post on this thread; only do if you are involved and have something to add. Think twice before posting and consider the forum rules.
BurgerBB Posted April 16, 2019 Author Posted April 16, 2019 1 hour ago, DRagO said: I dont wanna draw this out into a long long post, but essentially, the appeal was denied because, me nor tish, or really anybody felt the apology and feelings itself were genuine and were going to be followed up upon. I chose to make this ban in a way that gives you a easy way to appeal it instead of just outright perma banning you. It was designed in mind that when you are actually ready to appeal it. This was posted in the appeal, but things like this were said aswell Im going to be honest and say that, him if he was actualy trying to play psychologist is wrong and he shouldn't, but the type of attitude present is still clear, that you don't understand fully why this ban was placed in this manner, and why it was placed in the first place, as a majority of the appeal and the ban request was re-directing at others such as coalf and vtc and sonicgotnuked. I agree, that we need to take a more hard line stance on how toxic this place can be, but you are not contributing to that by not setting the example for what you want to see. I had hoped that everytime I checked the appeal it would click, and we can start moving forward, but I believe you arent ready yet. You have the potential inside you, I just havent seen it shine out yet, nor has tish. It was genuine. I don't understand how I can prove to you or others that it was genuine without over exaggeration or outright lying, which I'm not going to do because I'm not that kind of person. I've stated very clearly that I don't think my behavior at the time is wanted nor needed by the community, however there is a serious amount of hypocrisy which makes me believe that the ban itself is not justified. What I said with the psychology shit was out of anger, and it was absolutely justified anger. I've reported his posts. I've messaged you. I've messaged arrow. I've messaged Yonnimer. Posts were deleted but nothing was done to prevent people from doing it. For christ sakes, Shev's post was deleted for playing armchair psychologist and yet he made the same post again not even 6 hours later. It was very clear that the ban appeal wasn't being taken seriously so I just had enough. I was very justifiably pissed off considering 4 other people posted in the thread, broke rules. Nothing was done to prevent this sort of thing, with exception to locking the thread which really did nothing as 11 hours later the thread was closed. And I explained this. Several times. It is not redirection. If someone starts talking shit I'm going to point that shit out. I have every right to argue it. If there has been a precedent set on how behavior is dealt with, I'm going to bring it up. Lawyers in a courtroom often argue that their client should not receive a life sentence for their crimes by pointing out a president in another case where another person did the exact same thing, if not worse. You can read about that more here: https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_precedent I'm well aware that this isn't a courtroom or held up by law, but jesus christmas I genuinely think that the punishment itself and how the ban appeal itself was handled unfairly and I think other cases in how behavior is dealt with needs to be looked at. Escalation from literally nothing to a permaban is not fair unless I am acting malicious, which I am not. I do not intentionally try to give a rise out of others because I'm not petty and I just do not give a shit about that sort of thing. It is also incredibly unrealistic to assume that me being subjected to 3 people who have harassed me in the past over trivial shit, them telling outright lies, misleading claims, trying to analyze me while claiming I shouldn't be here. Garnacus behaved the same way when I made a player complaint against him; he got reasonably upset and I did not hold that against him because it was reasonable. I'm not saying that he should be permabanned like me, I'm saying that this isn't something special to me and should not be used to determine how a person behaves. If you permabanned any random person on the server who was a known troublemaker, told them to justify their existence on the server, and then had 4 irrelevant people to come in the thread to make up shit, over-exaggerate, and other malicious garbage, I'm pretty sure that random person would be pretty pissed off. They would be at their worst, not their average. Not their median. And here is this stuff again with the "You should set an example." I shouldn't have to set any example when someone stirs shit up and I reasonably tell them to fuck off. It's absolutely fucking hypocrisy at this point to say this because there are plenty of times where someone has went over and above the line when it comes to insults, but an admin says "Well it would be unreasonable to punish them since you kinda did provoke them." I recall an instance where someone told me to kill myself, I reported it to a mod after it was ignored by staff in the chat, and I was told that "Well you've provoked them so I'm just going to give them a verbal warning like I'm giving you right now." Do you want to know what's creating a toxic atmosphere? Treating the targets of toxicity the same as those who are trying to start shit, just because the target told them to fuck off.
TishinaStalker Posted April 17, 2019 Posted April 17, 2019 12 hours ago, BurgerBB said: Trish is known to show hostility towards me in ooc, discord, and the forums with remarks such as "xd organ damage" in serious environments in the suggestion forums or general belittlements elsewhere. I've said organ damage once in staff_lobby in the staff channel as a joke in November 2018, in the General discord in August 2018 as a joke as well, and then a third time in a suggestion in regards to your burrito meme suggestion. Then in the General discord, also in August 2018, I made the joke that "Alb, no, you have to wait for Burger to play HoP for that suggestion to be made." When at the time, there was a meme going about concerning that you'd play a job, and then do changes as you thought they were needed -- which I never considered a bad thing, honestly. You brought it up yourself previously, and I think that's totally fine. I'd just meme about it at worst, but hopefully not in a way that could be perceived as malicious. Lastly, in our PMs on Discord, are interactions really only went as far as me not being sure how often you played Chemist. Which we then had a brief and civil talk to clear up my doubts. I don't think I've been hostile towards you, personally, and I certainly have not been an outright jerk. Are you my favorite person in the world? No, but most people aren't. Granted, yes, I do have my own personal reservations, but everyone has their own personal thing against others. If there was something I might've missed where I might've actually been a jerk to you, then hey, that's my bad. I'll accept that because I try my best to not be rude, and sometimes it slips, but at least I try my best to not just flat out berate the person. Regardless, I like to think that I'm very respectful in regards to addressing people in general whenever I can because I try to treat people how I would want them to treat me. If I do have to hand down punishment, then I try to be as impartial as I can be. If I even so much as think I won't be impartial, then I will turn down whatever request was made of me to handle the situation. I've turned down headmins assigning me complaints multiple times before either because the player was a friend of mine or because I knew I personally and absolutely disliked the player. If I thought I was going to be impartial here, then I easily would've told Drago "No, I do not want to work on this request with you." 12 hours ago, BurgerBB said: who is known to get drunk on the job To be fair, I don't do any of my drinking at home unless I'm actively playing video games with my roommates. I go out, drink, and come back home drunk. Usually this is around midnight - 2 AM (CST), and we have no staff around or they're AFK. These are times where the only ahelps are very normally game questions and not reports. So I hop on just so that at least there's someone around. At the same time, I don't get utterly shitfaced, and I do my best to make certain I'm fully reading and comprehending what's going on if I need to handle someone. If there's another staff member, then I generally tend to ask them to take the ahelp instead if it's a report as a precaution. If I recall, we did have one mistake go down while I was drunk between you and I. Which I promptly corrected because hey, honest mistake, and of course I wasn't just gonna say "nah, live with it." 12 hours ago, BurgerBB said: Given their inactivity, especially when the ban was granted, and obvious opinion of me, I do not think that they were fit to give a ban in the first place or have any sort of judgement related to it. That would be correct. I've been especially inactive as of late because I moved to a city several hours away. I was also getting my licenses and certifications for several insurance categories and annuities. I also started my new job as an insurance agent last week. So I haven't been inactive because I wanna just bail, but because my life has to take precedence. I still hop on whenever I can to help out, especially if a staff member pings me or I notice we don't have staff online and I still have some time before bed. I'm hoping to be much more active once things smooth out and I get in the rhythm at my new job. Now, just because I don't hop on the server doesn't mean I'm completely inactive. I still do my best to stay on the level on what's going on in the server because I read up on the staff channel, and I do my best to keep an eye on the forums, and even pull requests if I remember those -- because I like seeing what people have to suggest and stuff. I even try to keep track on who's becoming trial mod, but just don't give my feedback on them because, of course, I haven't been online to see them play, and if I have, then they're not on at the same time as me. Am I inactive? Absolutely, I won't deny that, and that's something I'm hoping to correct. Am I completely unaware of current events? I do my best not to be. Of course, I can't catch everything because I'm only Human, but I do my best. 12 hours ago, BurgerBB said: I've received one question from drago, one reply from drago, and none from Trishina. That would be because Drago and I were handling these cases together. We discuss in private, and then one of us posts based on what we've been discussing. So please don't think it's because I'm refusing to read, comprehend, or anything like that. The last thing I would want to do is make an uninformed opinion, especially in relation to banning someone, and I take no pleasure in doing so if I have to. 12 hours ago, BurgerBB said: Someone event kept replying after their posts were being deleted so that told me that no punishment or really anything to deter them from posting again was dealt with. Hey, I'll definitely admit fault here, no worries. I was the admin handling it, and I really wish I had done a better job at keeping that discussion tight and on pat. Again, though, I've started a new job as of late, so a lot of my time at home has been going to learning all the ins and outs of my company's products -- and then I piss about on a single player video game because I'm usually too tired for others by then. So again, please don't think that all happened because I want you to fail or anything like that. 12 hours ago, BurgerBB said: Yes. I fucked up by being rude to people of the community on discord, on the forums, and OOC. Yes. I fucked up in the thread responding to people and I took note of to never actually reply to them unless it's okayed by a mod. I do not think it's worth a permaban because my attitude isn't worth a permaban. I don't do things like tell people to kill themselves or go out of my way to attack people. I do not think it's worth permaban as there are worse people with worse behavioral problems that exist. I do not think that the judgement done by the peanut gallery and by staff handling the unappeal in the thread was fair or impartial. I do not think that the ban request itself was fair or impartial. There wasn't enough communication between me nor staff regarding this. As for your questions: Hey, honestly, I don't think I can find any way to phrase this in a way that doesn't sound rude. That's good that you realized you fucked up. That's why we're here. I'd rather not keep anyone permabanned, but we need to make sure they're aware. I do think it was worth a permaban. Maybe you don't tell people to commit suicide, sure, but constant toxic behavior is definitely not something to tolerate. If there's worse people, then hey, let us know. We try to handle them as we can. I can't actively go out looking for people to ban because that's how you create a vendetta, and that's the last thing I want. I think our judgement was fair for both the request and the appeal. If we want to be technical on never having been server banned, you have a note on end of July 2018 saying to "ban on next blatant offense". Then, exactly a month later, a hefty warning was placed for breaking rule #1. Despite the previous one stating that, that August incident should've ended in a ban. That same warning on August also stated to ban of something like that occurs again. Then in January this year, you were spoken to twice for getting aggressive with others on the server. How those incidents don't end in bans themselves due to rule #1? I don't know. I just know that I have to sit here, analyze this, and think "How many chances are we going to keep giving? Are we going to wait a few months and then give him a warning when this happens again? We're just going to say that it's okay to do X or Y once every few months?" So we decided enough was enough. As such, we applied a permanent ban to show that we're not going to keep permitting toxic or overly aggressive behavior anymore. It wasn't a ban because we saw an opportunity and went for it. It was a ban to show we're done playing games and that it's very important that you correct those issues. Essentially, a swift kick to the pants. To that end, your behavior in the unban indicated that the issues were not corrected. I would have had no problem whatsoever with unbanning you, but only if you could've shown that those issues were taken care of. You demonstrated that they were not, and so we denied the appeal. You're right, there wasn't enough communication regarding the appeal. What was I going to do in communicating with you? Ask you if you didn't mean all the aggressive behavior in the appeal? You already said your piece clear as day on that appeal. Since we were there to judge your attitude, that's exactly what we did. And that is my part and piece for this complaint where it concerns me and my justifications, @Alberyk. I'll try to keep an eye on this, but I've got a busy couple days ahead. If you need me ASAP, then just shoot me an at on Discord. I'll make sure to set aside some time as soon as I can.
BurgerBB Posted April 17, 2019 Author Posted April 17, 2019 13 hours ago, TishinaStalker said: I've said organ damage once in staff_lobby in the staff channel as a joke in November 2018, in the General discord in August 2018 as a joke as well, and then a third time in a suggestion in regards to your burrito meme suggestion. Then in the General discord, also in August 2018, I made the joke that "Alb, no, you have to wait for Burger to play HoP for that suggestion to be made." When at the time, there was a meme going about concerning that you'd play a job, and then do changes as you thought they were needed -- which I never considered a bad thing, honestly. You brought it up yourself previously, and I think that's totally fine. I'd just meme about it at worst, but hopefully not in a way that could be perceived as malicious. Lastly, in our PMs on Discord, are interactions really only went as far as me not being sure how often you played Chemist. Which we then had a brief and civil talk to clear up my doubts. I don't think I've been hostile towards you, personally, and I certainly have not been an outright jerk. Are you my favorite person in the world? No, but most people aren't. Granted, yes, I do have my own personal reservations, but everyone has their own personal thing against others. If there was something I might've missed where I might've actually been a jerk to you, then hey, that's my bad. I'll accept that because I try my best to not be rude, and sometimes it slips, but at least I try my best to not just flat out berate the person. Regardless, I like to think that I'm very respectful in regards to addressing people in general whenever I can because I try to treat people how I would want them to treat me. If I do have to hand down punishment, then I try to be as impartial as I can be. If I even so much as think I won't be impartial, then I will turn down whatever request was made of me to handle the situation. I've turned down headmins assigning me complaints multiple times before either because the player was a friend of mine or because I knew I personally and absolutely disliked the player. If I thought I was going to be impartial here, then I easily would've told Drago "No, I do not want to work on this request with you." To be fair, I don't do any of my drinking at home unless I'm actively playing video games with my roommates. I go out, drink, and come back home drunk. Usually this is around midnight - 2 AM (CST), and we have no staff around or they're AFK. These are times where the only ahelps are very normally game questions and not reports. So I hop on just so that at least there's someone around. At the same time, I don't get utterly shitfaced, and I do my best to make certain I'm fully reading and comprehending what's going on if I need to handle someone. If there's another staff member, then I generally tend to ask them to take the ahelp instead if it's a report as a precaution. If I recall, we did have one mistake go down while I was drunk between you and I. Which I promptly corrected because hey, honest mistake, and of course I wasn't just gonna say "nah, live with it." That would be correct. I've been especially inactive as of late because I moved to a city several hours away. I was also getting my licenses and certifications for several insurance categories and annuities. I also started my new job as an insurance agent last week. So I haven't been inactive because I wanna just bail, but because my life has to take precedence. I still hop on whenever I can to help out, especially if a staff member pings me or I notice we don't have staff online and I still have some time before bed. I'm hoping to be much more active once things smooth out and I get in the rhythm at my new job. Now, just because I don't hop on the server doesn't mean I'm completely inactive. I still do my best to stay on the level on what's going on in the server because I read up on the staff channel, and I do my best to keep an eye on the forums, and even pull requests if I remember those -- because I like seeing what people have to suggest and stuff. I even try to keep track on who's becoming trial mod, but just don't give my feedback on them because, of course, I haven't been online to see them play, and if I have, then they're not on at the same time as me. Am I inactive? Absolutely, I won't deny that, and that's something I'm hoping to correct. Am I completely unaware of current events? I do my best not to be. Of course, I can't catch everything because I'm only Human, but I do my best. That would be because Drago and I were handling these cases together. We discuss in private, and then one of us posts based on what we've been discussing. So please don't think it's because I'm refusing to read, comprehend, or anything like that. The last thing I would want to do is make an uninformed opinion, especially in relation to banning someone, and I take no pleasure in doing so if I have to. Hey, I'll definitely admit fault here, no worries. I was the admin handling it, and I really wish I had done a better job at keeping that discussion tight and on pat. Again, though, I've started a new job as of late, so a lot of my time at home has been going to learning all the ins and outs of my company's products -- and then I piss about on a single player video game because I'm usually too tired for others by then. So again, please don't think that all happened because I want you to fail or anything like that. As for your questions: Hey, honestly, I don't think I can find any way to phrase this in a way that doesn't sound rude. That's good that you realized you fucked up. That's why we're here. I'd rather not keep anyone permabanned, but we need to make sure they're aware. I do think it was worth a permaban. Maybe you don't tell people to commit suicide, sure, but constant toxic behavior is definitely not something to tolerate. If there's worse people, then hey, let us know. We try to handle them as we can. I can't actively go out looking for people to ban because that's how you create a vendetta, and that's the last thing I want. I think our judgement was fair for both the request and the appeal. If we want to be technical on never having been server banned, you have a note on end of July 2018 saying to "ban on next blatant offense". Then, exactly a month later, a hefty warning was placed for breaking rule #1. Despite the previous one stating that, that August incident should've ended in a ban. That same warning on August also stated to ban of something like that occurs again. Then in January this year, you were spoken to twice for getting aggressive with others on the server. How those incidents don't end in bans themselves due to rule #1? I don't know. I just know that I have to sit here, analyze this, and think "How many chances are we going to keep giving? Are we going to wait a few months and then give him a warning when this happens again? We're just going to say that it's okay to do X or Y once every few months?" So we decided enough was enough. As such, we applied a permanent ban to show that we're not going to keep permitting toxic or overly aggressive behavior anymore. It wasn't a ban because we saw an opportunity and went for it. It was a ban to show we're done playing games and that it's very important that you correct those issues. Essentially, a swift kick to the pants. To that end, your behavior in the unban indicated that the issues were not corrected. I would have had no problem whatsoever with unbanning you, but only if you could've shown that those issues were taken care of. You demonstrated that they were not, and so we denied the appeal. You're right, there wasn't enough communication regarding the appeal. What was I going to do in communicating with you? Ask you if you didn't mean all the aggressive behavior in the appeal? You already said your piece clear as day on that appeal. Since we were there to judge your attitude, that's exactly what we did. And that is my part and piece for this complaint where it concerns me and my justifications, @Alberyk. I'll try to keep an eye on this, but I've got a busy couple days ahead. If you need me ASAP, then just shoot me an at on Discord. I'll make sure to set aside some time as soon as I can. I virtually in agreement with most of your points. There are only two things I can really comment on, which your admitted inactivity. I'm not here to tell you how to do your job, but if you're judging someone's behavior then I think it would be better if people were aware of how I actually behave when it's not being reported. Like, no one writes 7 page essays about how I'm a good person. No one writes 7 pages essays on how anyone is a good person here, because no one cares about that. You can argue it's expected to be a good person but there is a HUGE concern about whether or not JUST the toxic behavior is looked at in a person, which is why I bring up your inactivity. It's very easy as an admin to despise people in the community if you only and exclusively hear about their bad behavior, but that is usually countered with the fact that the admin in question would be active and participate in the community. And on community, I mean if I really hated the community I wouldn't have become a dev or contributed 199 PRs to Aurora. Like I don't want to cross the line of saying "I was staff TREAT ME BETTER." but I think it dispels the notion that I am a detriment to being on Aurora. I mean, some people still treat me like staff because despite even being permabanned and no longer contributing. I had an aurora dev come up to me and bother me about a feature I implemented a year ago. I was also recommended to be solicited by other devs on the server as I had staff of Eris ask if I wanted to code for money. It's clear that I had and have a positive impact on Aurora and it depresses me when this gets ignored because of rude comments in OOC. I have memory issues, and I need you to correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think any admins came up to me and told me to knock it off and stop being a dick after the warning. The only time I think an admin commented on that is that they suggested that I should probably phrase things nicer, as me saying "The antags were really bad this round because xyz." provoked someone into getting really upset, which I backed away from. I also can't read notes and I don't recall anyone threatening me with a ban. If you could provide more information about that note, I would be happy to possibly elaborate on it if I remember. I don't have access to notes, which I think should change for everyone as notes have the potential to be abused, and I think in a few cases they were on Aurora and on other servers. Like I think your mindset sort of backs up the fact that this might've been unnecessary. It genuinely feels like that you're tired of all the toxicity not from just me, but from everyone else so you gave me a permaban just as an example to everyone else as opposed to something that might've been more reasonable. I don't think that's fair to me if that's the case, but that is what I feel I'm getting from this. I mean, this is the internet. There are millions of communities. I don't know what is specifically okay in one community or another because it changes constantly with new players and old players. So with that in mind, and the fact that literally no one has warned me or banned me or even complained about my behavior officially (with the exception of the permaban request), and the fact that there are more awful people who play on here who get away with shit, I thought it was okay to criticize people in OOC as long as I wasn't vulgar or incredible rude about it. In about 2% of cases where I've done this, I went over the line. In the instances where people who would get upset over my behavior, it was usually people who are known to cause issues on Aurora or people who I know with absolute certainty are easy to get offended not by just me, or just others. I mean I actively avoid them, I actively avoid engaging with them, but in 99% of cases it's usually just them bitching at me for doing something that they weren't involved in. It's hard to take them seriously and it's easy to completely ignore them and their points. I mean, the ban request itself; none of the examples or the complaints about my behavior actually involved them and was created out of anger because I disagreed with them on discord about how awful of a person I am. I took the ban request seriously, but I didn't take it as seriously as I should've.
Alberyk Posted April 21, 2019 Posted April 21, 2019 Just to keep this updated, I will come with a resolution/post something in this week.
Alberyk Posted April 23, 2019 Posted April 23, 2019 Alright. I have read the thread and the unban appeal. I do not think that tishina being drunk, not having too much time or their past behavior had any on this decision. The off-topics in the unban appeal also were handled, even if not in a timely manner due to reasons like people being busy. However, I agree that your behavior in the appeal was not really helpful for your cause. I do believe that you caused a lot of strife, if not only due to your own fault, and I feel that this community ban was justified due to your overall behavior. Anyway, while I am not against unbanning you due to this complaint, I feel that the dialogue that was happened between both parties here helped to clear up some of our intentions and what could be done to be fixed those problems. You were told you could appeal after one month, however, I would be fine with you opening another unban appeal at any time you see fit, and I could look into it myself. What do you think, @BurgerBB
BurgerBB Posted April 23, 2019 Author Posted April 23, 2019 5 hours ago, Alberyk said: Alright. I have read the thread and the unban appeal. I do not think that tishina being drunk, not having too much time or their past behavior had any on this decision. The off-topics in the unban appeal also were handled, even if not in a timely manner due to reasons like people being busy. However, I agree that your behavior in the appeal was not really helpful for your cause. I do believe that you caused a lot of strife, if not only due to your own fault, and I feel that this community ban was justified due to your overall behavior. Anyway, while I am not against unbanning you due to this complaint, I feel that the dialogue that was happened between both parties here helped to clear up some of our intentions and what could be done to be fixed those problems. You were told you could appeal after one month, however, I would be fine with you opening another unban appeal at any time you see fit, and I could look into it myself. What do you think, @BurgerBB I don't think I will be coming back, honestly. I think I'll change, but I don't think anything will ever change about Aurora to make my experience here better. Maybe I'll come back once the inevitable sicko-mode crackdown on shitty behavior gets people permabanned or removed from staff positions, but I don't think that will happen any time soon. I've been playing on MRP servers and I found that my shitposty attitude fits in right there. I mean every round there is always 2-4 people calling the antags shit and people don't overreact to that, in fact they embrace the feedback regardless of how crude it is. I've been actively contributing on citadel and my PRs are getting merged without anyone being an asshole about it; it's a breath of fresh air compared to the 2-4 people who whine about anything I touch or propose to touch. I'm taking the path of least resistance here. It honestly seems better for everyone if I just play on other servers.
Alberyk Posted April 26, 2019 Posted April 26, 2019 Very well. I will take this as solved, and my resolution still stands, you are free to appeal this ban any time. I will lock this in around one day or so.
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