Siik Maas

[Thundy]

So it has been a long long time since my question about Siik Maas. What are everyone's thoughts after all of this? An idea I have is that the community around a human player may have to actually teach the human the language over a number of rounds through RP before they are allowed to learn it. They could have an impediment, whether RP or drunk speak. They could make it work. Like I said before, this should be a white list only. We don't want people having the language with no RP reason for having it.

Thoughts?

[SierraKomodo]

I think it should be the same as it would take to learn any other language realistically. A lot of studying/practicing with those that know the language.

Also, as Siik'maas also uses certain gestures/movements and probably tones a human isn't capable of (Humans cant purr/growl like a Tajarran), there would have to be something that would show that ICly as well.

[Jamini]

Lorewise and historically, humans can learn and speak (poorly) Siik'mas. There really isn't any arguing about it so long as the lore is as it is.

[SierraKomodo]

Lorewise and historically, humans can learn and speak (poorly) Siik'mas. There really isn't any arguing about it so long as the lore is as it is.

 

Pretty much this, really. xD

[Thundy]

Lorewise and historically, humans can learn and speak (poorly) Siik'mas. There really isn't any arguing about it so long as the lore is as it is.

 

How hard would it be to code?

[Serveris]

How hard would it be to code?

 

I'm not taking a definitive stance on this until a loredev provides some input here. Could it be done? Yes. Rather easily. If there was something passed along these lines, it would probably be handled on a case by case basis, rather than siik maas open for grabs on anyone that wants it. Similar situations such as this have been handled on other servers by characters applying to appropriate lore staff for having knowledge of such things, as they would any other whitelist or privilege.

[Guest]

This idea has been bounced around a lot. We have yet to come to a decision.

[Guest]

A bit of a take from a lore perspective.

Right, so. First contact with Skrell was about 30-40 years ago, ICly. Tajara and Uneth followed in the mid 20ish year range, Diona being discovered by humanity next. IPCs being developed and programmed just a short time ago.

Why does this matter, exactly, you might ask.

Well, do you really think anthropologists (on either side of the spectrum, Human or Tajaran) would be able to translate each other's languages (Sol Common and Siik'Maas, respectively) and be able to speak them fluently within the course of 25ish years?

It's a matter of attempting to dispel negative suspension of disbelief here. The lore, in my opinion, currently has too much of it in places where it's unnecessary, and too little of it where it could be productive.

Honestly, if we implemented humans being able to speak or understand Siik'Maas, we'd just be throwing sense out the window. There are times where it's funny or cool to do it, because maybe it was actually helpful, but I don't see any foreseeable positive outcome that could come from this. I was answering some questions yesterday over reddit PMs complaining about Aurora's lore, especially with all of the half-human half-Tajaran hybrids or whatever. I didn't dismiss this since given all of the ridiculous backstories I've seen before on this server, it's likely that their complaints had some merit.

Maybe if we were fast-forwarded into the future or if we tweaked how long ago First Contact was with the Tajara, it would make sense. But it's far too soon (in terms of the Aurora lore timeline) in my eyes to give players the ability to be quadralingual genetic freakshows. No actual offense is meant there nor am I pointing any fingers, it's just me exaggerating.

At least, I hope I was.

[ZipZero]

Right, so. First contact with Skrell was about 30-40 years ago, ICly. Tajara and Uneth followed in the mid 20ish year range, Diona being discovered by humanity next. IPCs being developed and programmed just a short time ago.

Dionaea would have been discovered along with the skrell, given that the skrell had made contact with dionaea over a hundred years prior. Also, IPCs have existed since at least around the time of first contact with unathi, though positronic brains have existed for around a hundred years. Just going off the wiki here.

 

Well, do you really think anthropologists (on either side of the spectrum, Human or Tajaran) would be able to translate each other's languages (Sol Common and Siik'Maas, respectively) and be able to speak them fluently within the course of 25ish years?

Yes. Yes, I do think that. Tau Ceti Basic, Tradeband, Gutter - all human languages, and tajara are able to speak them, though some with minimal fluency. I see no problem with humans learning Siik'Maas in a similar fashion, given this paragraph:

It is capable of being spoken by a learned human, as it is not as reliant on body language as Siik'tajr or the other native languages on Adhomai. However, just as Tau Ceti basic is difficult for Tajaran to master given their muzzle structure, Siik'maas is the same to humans, since they lack the proper biology to perform certain inflections properly. Despite it focusing more on spoken word than others, some of the vocabulary requires subtle body movements that are challenging for humans to grasp, no less perform. Even if one were to learn these movements, they tend to be sluggish and slower, giving the speech a sort of 'drunken' feeling. Tajaran speaking this over the radio often find themselves in similar positions.

 

all of the half-human half-Tajaran hybrids

The... what? Pretty sure there are none of those, given that it is completely impossible.

[Guest]

Point one, forgive me for mixing a few things up, given part of how I'm trying to help here is by answering lore questions, and having a general idea on what lore actually is and what's on the wiki is two different things.

Point two, does that still merit and justify a multitude of species walking about being semi-fluent in the languages of other species? One of the many core things that split the different species apart is language. It gives each one of them their own identity, their own culture and heritage to remember. The way I see it, an Englishman knowing French as a second language is much more different than a Human knowing Siik'Maas. It might be easy to appropriate culture, but you can't appropriate the identity of a species. Language is a huge part in what makes each species unique. While I do believe there are some parts in the lore and other races that should be treated and adjusted more liberally, this is the one thing I will defend to its end. I don't see the point in fixing what isn't broken. And anyway, you can get the same effect of understanding Siik'Maas by carrying a universal recorder or a pAI in your back pocket.

Point three, don't ask. It was stupid enough for me to have to listen to that drivel and I'll feel even more stupid for trying to understand the point behind it and attempt to relay it to people who were just as irritated as I was to hear it.

[Jamini]

Discounting languages within the same language tree, this is probably one of the better sources for identifying historical facts. The closest comparison between people who historically learned a language completely unlike (outside of the family of) their own would be the invasion/colonization/exploration of the Americas by western Europeans. Human children explicitly brought back or sent to learn languages in central America took about three to five years or so to be able to communicate in both languages passably, despite having no common roots between the two language trees. This was done multiple times within one man's lifetime during the exploration of the central americas by Hernan Cortes and other spanish explorers.

While learning an alien language would likely be exceedingly difficult, fourty years (yes, it's fourty years since first contact with the Tajaran. Not twenty.) is nearly two generations for both species. As it has been stated for it to be possible for both species to speak and hear the vast majority each-others languages fairly explicitly by the loredev in charge of Tajara, I see no reason why it would take over eight times longer for humanity as a whole to be able to have any individuals capable of speaking and understanding basic Siik'maas simply because the language originates from a non-human source. That is not supported by history or evidence of our own neural plasticity. Doubly so when we have devices capable of translation exist(which means it would be easier to learn the language, not harder.)

As for Siik'Maas being a thing that makes Tajara unique? It's ... really not. It's never been so, coming from the side that has had it for a few years, and I honestly personally do not care if a human can into mrowl or not. What makes Tajara unique is their way of speaking and the mannerisms they hold. What makes Tajara unique is the group-think mentality that is normally exhibited by their players. What makes Tajara unique is the sprite and equipment restrictions. What makes Tajara unique is the OOC hatred some players have for the species. What makes the Tajaran unique is the drama and fights and (historically, not currently) bad lore that they had to struggle with to make sense at all. :j has such a tiny factor into making Tajara unique it may as well not exist. It's a bit of flavor, not a defining aspect that makes the Tajaran special. The only reason it's been coming so strongly to light recently is the capability to use it over communications, something that historically was impossible and made it far rarer for many players to hear or use.

Also, if you think a universal recorder or a pAI for translation is in any way equivalent to understanding the language you clearly have not seriously tried it. I've done both, and each are very, very different from being able to communicate fluently with someone who cannot speak basic. (Most notable was when I was using a translator to speak to a Diona nymph as a skrell. It was a massive headache.)

[Thundy]

I was writing a reply and you...shit. Damn you Jamini and your perfect word makings.

Isn't this a human station after all? Can I draw the comparison to district nine with the prawns?

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

I think alien dialogue would lose a little bit of its charm if we had to stop shit-talking about humans because we're unsure if they understood our hissing or meowing. Pointing at someone then saying some random noun and watching the human trip over themselves getting offended or confused is still intensely amusing.

[Jamini]

I think alien dialogue would lose a little bit of its charm if we had to stop shit-talking about humans because we're unsure if they understood our hissing or meowing. Pointing at someone then saying some random noun and watching the human trip over themselves getting offended or confused is still intensely amusing.

 

I can say from experience that it's actually funnier/more interesting when you run into that odd human that speaks a language they normally "wouldn't", and actually lends itself to more interesting interactions. On bay I've had a few instances where I was caught off-guard by a whitelisted human with Siik'Mas, and it has often led itself to a interesting result.

Over there you need to apply for alien languages as an entirely separate thing from simply being whitelisted for the species (but in the same forums as whitelist access), and the restrictions are tighter than getting on the whitelist. Normally this means the few humans that know Siik'Mas often have a very, very good reason for knowing the language.

[mrimatool]

I'm going to have to also say that this wouldn't be as good an idea as you think.

Alien languages are one of the fun advantages of playing as an alien, humans walking round growling and purring doesn't seem right.

Although I have a second idea, a form of bastardised language each species get on top of their formal language. So basically humans would speak Siik'Tass rather than Siik'mass and this would make it so Aliens get to keep their language to themselves as well as appeasing the people with love for furry creatures. What I also suggest is that The secondary language e.g Siik'Tass is only available if you have the alien whitelist to play the creature, so if you have the Skrell whitelist you can give your humans the ability to speak the bastardised Skrell language rather than say gutter. The other thing is, Siik'Tass is a completely different language, similar in some ways but not the actual language because humans don't have tails etc.

[Jamini]

Siik'Maas already is a bastardized version of Siik'Tajr converted so that it can be spoken over radios.

 

I'm going to have to also say that this wouldn't be as good an idea as you think.

 

I've seen it in place for about a year and a half and seen no issues with it on either end. A handful of humans mrowling isn't really that big of a deal as long as its properly roleplayed out. It's a non-issue when it is possible.

[Nik]

This is one of the few things that ever causes me to call something snow-flakey. Normally I find the term abrasive and misused, like a adult toy made of sand paper, but it's a alien language. A language with No basis to human language, a language which uses the vocal cords of an entirely different race. You'd not just learn that off handedly. You'd need to study that shit for years, and you'd still sound like you were Forest Gump meets Rocky Balboa.

I don't like this. It screams of something that would be casually placed into a character sheet if made a general function, and it would attract mass amounts of players getting a whitelist for it because they simply want it, not for a actual RP point.

It's cat speak. It's not like learning Mandarin. You can't just read a book about it. If there was even a book.

[mrimatool]

Nik is right, if it were possible for humans to learn it, it would be learned by the most skilled of linguists, not every man and their dog

[Rusty Shackleford]

You can't just read a book about it. If there was even a book.

 

Space cats can't read.

Huehuehuehuehuehuehuehuehue...

[ZipZero]

Yes, Siik'Maas is a completely alien language to humans, and would be very difficult to learn. However, Tau Ceti Basic (as well as Tradeband, Gutter, etc.) are just as alien to tajara (and other alien species as well). Unless we were to remove the ability for Tau Ceti Basic to be spoken by anything other than humans, which is ridiculous for obvious reasons, I think it would be perfectly acceptable for humans to learn Siik'Maas, though this ability would likely be very uncommon.

[Gollee]

Yes, Siik'Maas is a completely alien language to humans, and would be very difficult to learn. However, Tau Ceti Basic (as well as Tradeband, Gutter, etc.) are just as alien to tajara (and other alien species as well). Unless we were to remove the ability for Tau Ceti Basic to be spoken by anything other than humans, which is ridiculous for obvious reasons, I think it would be perfectly acceptable for humans to learn Siik'Maas, though this ability would likely be very uncommon.

 

The man has a point here.

[Guest]

Yes, Siik'Maas is a completely alien language to humans, and would be very difficult to learn. However, Tau Ceti Basic (as well as Tradeband, Gutter, etc.) are just as alien to tajara (and other alien species as well). Unless we were to remove the ability for Tau Ceti Basic to be spoken by anything other than humans, which is ridiculous for obvious reasons, I think it would be perfectly acceptable for humans to learn Siik'Maas, though this ability would likely be very uncommon.

 

Basic is Basic. It's a common language most races should be able to know within the Tau Ceti sector.

It's highly centralized and it's also very simple, with the ability to have complexities within. It's a highly adaptable language as well.

It's not culture-specific either, it's a melting pot of several languages combined.

[Thundy]

From what I'm seeing, here are the pros and cons:

Pros: open up RP opportunities

Follow the lore more closely

Enforce the idea this this is a human station and humans should get all up in the aliens grill

Cons: it's hard to learn cat.

It would kill the RP opportunities for the cats to be sneaky sneaky talking about the humans

Give me more pros and cons to put under these titles and I'll update it

[Susan]

Cat lore says that humans can learn and speak (poorly) Sik'maas. So it shall stay. I see no reason to change it. Japanese being a difficult language with a stupid amount of characters and being read inverted of English doesn't and hasn't stopped people from learning to read and write and speak it.

[Jamini]

Finnish is another good example of a language with no real relationship to any germanic or romantic language. The Uralic language tree is quite distinct from any other language tree, and shares virtually no linguistic similarities to english, yet there are plenty of bilingual finns, and English-speaking people who learn finnish.