Staff Complaint - SonicGotNuked

[AmoryBlaine]

BYOND Key:AmoryBlaine

Staff BYOND Key:SonicGotNuked

Game ID: b4K-cZ7c

Reason for complaint: Unjust banning.

There exists zero lore, on the TCFL pilot. The wiki does not even mention them. This in mind, we can make the assumption, that with the lack of any lore on them, pilots are officers, as is typical for nearly every military. Now, because there is zero lore on them, it is not possible to place them into the hierarchy of rank in regards to Prefects. With that in mind, we can assume they are of equal or near equal rank, with the Prefect commanding his squad of regulars and volunteers, and the Pilot commanding his/her shuttle.

The round in question had the Prefect, commandeer the shuttle with no forewarning, no acknowledgement of apprehension, and no communication with my pilot. My pilot had, as not all the squad were on the shuttle yet, asked whether the team would want the mech aboard. After asking this he climbed into the mech. One person, a volunteer, suggested there was not time for this, a moment before my pilot entered the mech. Traveling between the roughly 8 tiles between the shuttle and the mech, the doors closed as the Prefect took control. Again- he did not give out any call that they were taking off, nor acknowledgement that he was commandeering the shuttle. Even when my pilot questioned them over the radio for the identity of who launched the shuttle, the Prefect remained silent. It was on the word of a volunteer that the Prefect was made known to have sent the shuttle. After, my pilot used a pod to board the station- with still zero communication from the Prefect- he remained with the team as they secured the evac shuttle, and then moved to the bridge to link with the Prefect. Eventually they finally aknowledge someone else on comms, and my pilot yells at them and tells them they'll be brigged. My pilot once running into them starts trying to get them to remove their suit, at which point they order their squad to 'brig' the pilot. This makes zero sense contextually, as the pilot outranks all of them save maybe the Prefect, and even so there is no brig, nor capacity for the team to brig the pilot. That is something handled by the Sentinels, after the mission, with little to actually justify the attempt as up until the squad attempting to 'brig' the pilot, there was no escalation of force made by the pilot. It was infact the team, as they pulled out their batons and handcuffs, and in response the first to attempt to put them on, was shot at. [If this were a more cinematic game, I would have attempted to aim at them at them, but given the fact they already had their batons out while I stood there without a gun in hand, there wasn't much of a chance that I'd actually be allowed to RP holding them at gun point. Plus cuffs standing still would have had the cuffs hgo on even if I did hold them at gunpoint, as I tried to talk.]

So, given the Prefect has stolen a shuttle, refused to communicate with the pilot, and attempted to order an illegitimate attempt to 'brig' the my pilot, he draws and fires on the person attempting to handcuff him. At this time, all of the persons present were either in full hardsuits or composite armor, and carrying their weapons openly or pulling out their batons in response to the order by the prefect. I shot one person- the one attempting to handcuff me. Pilot was handcuffed, and this was all fine. I have no issue with how it played out. My only gripe is the fact we have no set lore on the role, which is what allowed for this situation to take place, as with lore it'd make it more clear as to the standing of the Prefect in relation to the Pilot, and vice-versa.

Is it wrong to shoot your people on your side? Yes, but that does not factor in the context of the situation, which was that the team had effectively stolen a shuttle and were attempting an illegitimate 'brigging' of the pilot officer. Mind you, again, that the pilot has access to a blaster pistol- and a knife and crowbar which I had to get myself- and that everyone present was in composite armor or hardsuits. Should the pilot not have fired? Yes, it would have served him much better not to firing on them, since stealing a shuttle and trying to brig the pilot of the stolen shuttle are probably not going to reflect well on those involved- but the pilot was angry, and untrusting of the Prefect as no attempt was made to communicate with the pilot, which justifies that response when compliance means losing autonomy to someone who's done everything to make you believe they cannot be trusted. It makes whole sense that my pilot would attempt to stop the illegitimate "brigging" attempted by the Prefect who had also stolen the shuttle, and been non-cooperative over comms.

What I want out of this complaint is, the ban lifted, given the actions carried out were all properly escalated and had reason for them to take place, and that we actually write lore for the pilots.

 

Evidence/logs/etc:

Additional remarks:

[AmoryBlaine]

As you become more experienced you may well get a chance to be a Squad Leader, known as a Prefect.

So, by this measure, if we were to apply the role of Prefect to standing armies today, they are most likely ranked below a pilot, as the standard squad leader is a staff sergeant.

 

[sonicgotnuked]

In regards to rank, it really doesn't matter. I gave an example of armed security arresting the captain. If the captain was to pull his gun and unload it into the nearby officer when the team was around and they're trying to detain him, they would get contacted by staff if the detainment was valid. Amory's detainment was a valid reason.

 

The arrest happened because the Pilot walked up at round end and started throwing insults to the PFCL, who is the leader of the group. They ordered the detainment. It isn't reasonable to try and disarm then begin mag dumping into a team of armed individuals with the soul intent to kill the person trying to cuff you. These are the logs of the encounter, I've went ahead and censored ckeys for privacy. Being TFCL doesn't excuse a player from being sane minded and letting anger excuse them from trying to shoot the rest of the team. I before hand spoke to the TFCL leader about his use of the shuttle, which I informed Amory of.

 

[AmoryBlaine]

3 minutes ago, sonicgotnuked said:

In regards to rank, it really doesn't matter. I gave an example of armed security arresting the captain. If the captain was to pull his gun and unload it into the nearby officer when the team was around and they're trying to detain him, they would get contacted by staff if the detainment was valid. Amory's detainment was a valid reason.

 

The arrest happened because the Pilot walked up at round end and started throwing insults to the PFCL, who is the leader of the group. They ordered the detainment. It isn't reasonable to try and disarm then begin mag dumping into a team of armed individuals with the soul intent to kill the person trying to cuff you. These are the logs of the encounter, I've went ahead and censored ckeys for privacy. Being TFCL doesn't excuse a player from being sane minded and letting anger excuse them from trying to shoot the rest of the team. I before hand spoke to the TFCL leader about his use of the shuttle, which I informed Amory of.

 

 

It does not make sense to say rank does not matter, when you are saying that rank does matter

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The arrest happened because the Pilot walked up at round end and started throwing insults to the PFCL, who is the leader of the group. They ordered the detainment.

The Prefect is described on the wiki as a squad leader. Not, the leader of the group. Your use of the word group is very undefined and vague, where as squad is clear. If the pilot outranked the Prefect, which he most likely does, given there's no current lore on their existence, and the general consensus on pilots in military organizations are that they're commissioned Officers- he cannot then order his squad to 'brig' them. Given you recognize in your example, that a Captain can only be arrested when there is valid reason to detain them-which is only reasonably by an order from Central- that carries over to this situation, wherein it is clear that a detainment is not valid given the aforementioned theft, and attempt and illegitimate detainment of an officer.

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It isn't reasonable to try and disarm then begin mag dumping into a team of armed individuals with the soul intent to kill the person trying to cuff you.

And again, as you can see, I shot one person. I was unable to push past them all, given there was no room to move, and I was being handcuffed.

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Being TFCL doesn't excuse a player from being sane minded and letting anger excuse them from trying to shoot the rest of the team.

And again, as you can see, I shot one person. Given the justifications to assume the Prefect was entirely out of line, it is unreasonable to allow yourself to be illegitimately detained by them. If a commissioned Officer is talking shit to your face, you don't go "Brig them" to your squad, and expect it to go well after you've stolen a shuttle. Even more specifically their shuttle.

15 minutes ago, sonicgotnuked said:

I before hand spoke to the TFCL leader about his use of the shuttle, which I informed Amory of.

The OOC outcome does not change the IC situation which was the theft of a shuttle, and attempt to illegitimately detain someone. I have no problem with how the players acted here, given they were guessing based off of how the NT-ERT operates, which is the Team leader leading everyone present, but also does not have a specific pilot rank. So they assumed based on gameplay similarities that the TCFL and ERT are the same in regards to character rank and title makeup, with there being one person in charge of everyone. Which is, by measure of the wiki, a wrong understanding- but at the same time the wiki doesn't even recognize the existance of pilots.

 

[AmoryBlaine]

To state again, this is the only line on the wiki which outlines what the Prefect is. As you become more experienced you may well get a chance to be a squad leader, known as a Prefect (Pfct. [name]).

They are squad leaders. It is unreasonable to assume that the shuttle and shuttle pilot are within, even more so below, the Squad and the Squad Leader. This is something you recognize in having talked to the Prefect about stealing the shuttle.

[sonicgotnuked]

18 minutes ago, AmoryBlaine said:

And again, as you can see, I shot one person. Given the justifications to assume the Prefect was entirely out of line, it is unreasonable to allow yourself to be illegitimately detained by them. If a commissioned Officer is talking shit to your face, you don't go "Brig them" to your squad, and expect it to go well after you've stolen a shuttle. Even more specifically their shuttle.

You started mag dumping into the person trying to hand cuff you. It really doesn't matter when there is the entire armed team around. This is a clear indication you were trying to use full lethal force and kill this individual, surrounded by multiple armed individuals. This is why I banned you. Reasonable and sane individuals do not unload their lethal weapons into their team mates because they were ordered to be detained. The Prefect is the leader of the entire Legion Team and that is to be assumed unless someone who develops lore wishes to over rule this. Every Distress signal based team is lead by a single person, in this case the prefect, and unless otherwise stated by the wiki, that's what is going to be enforced with the ghost spawner mechanically giving the job "Legion Leader"

 

16 minutes ago, AmoryBlaine said:

This is something you recognize in having talked to the Prefect about stealing the shuttle.

Don't assume that I recognized the rank with my conversation to the Prefect about the shuttle. I recognized the fact he shouldn't have piloted a shuttle that is clearly skill locked when there is the existence of the Pilot.

 

My decision for the ban isn't wavered and I've stated my reasoning that warranted the ban. I will allow another staff member to review my decision and deem if it's valid or not.

[AmoryBlaine]

1 minute ago, sonicgotnuked said:

You started mag dumping into the person trying to hand cuff you. It really doesn't matter when there is the entire armed team around. This is a clear indication you were trying to use full lethal force and kill this individual, surrounded by multiple armed individuals. This is why I banned you. Reasonable and sane individuals do not unload their lethal weapons into their team mates because they were ordered to be detained.

You are oversimplifying the situation here in order to justify banning me. Reasonable and sane individuals do not attempt to detain persons after stealing a shuttle. Reasonable and sane individuals do not allow persons who have done the latter to detain them. There was no reason for my pilot to assume the Prefect was anything but untrustworthy, and given the squads compliance with them, it was within reason to escape. Coincidentally, the person without someone else or a wall behind them, was the person shot- who also had the least armor (composite plating, rather than a hardsuit) of those present-, which- had they fallen from the disarm or shots- would have opened a way to walk through.

 

 

[AmoryBlaine]

With clarification from the TCFL lore people, the Pilot is on par with the squad in rank, so this will need to be clarified by the wiki page in the future as this is in direct contrast with most instances of pilots in military organizations. The Prefect is also in charge of everyone that spawns. So rewording their role on the wiki would be a good idea too.

[AmoryBlaine]

This fact doesn't change that at the time, it was most reasonable to view the pilot as separate from the squad and holding a higher rank.

[Cnaym]

I will be taking this complaint.

Regardless of rank, can we all agree that unloading the gun into team mates is a really bad idea? I feel like this shouldn't be made clear, but soldiers working together for more than the 10 minutes round duration probably would not try to kill each other over insults or handcuffs.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Cnaym

[AmoryBlaine]

7 minutes ago, Cnaym said:

Regardless of rank, can we all agree that unloading the gun into team mates is a really bad idea? I feel like this shouldn't be made clear, but soldiers working together for more than the 10 minutes round duration probably would not try to kill each other over insults or handcuffs.

I do not understand how you can read the initial post, and come away from this as being a shooting over insults and idea of being detained. It was specifically the context to the detainment. Sonic has attempted to decontextualize what happened, and given you've already done the exact same thing, I have no doubt that this is already over. You can close this.

[Cnaym]

Staff complaint reopened. Give me a day or two to do the log dive and ask the lore team to make a comprehensive ranking thing for the wiki.

[Cnaym]

On 17/12/2019 at 23:52, AmoryBlaine said:

What I want out of this complaint is, the ban lifted, given the actions carried out were all properly escalated and had reason for them to take place, and that we actually write lore for the pilots.

This took an ungodly amount of time from my end. IRL stuff and so on.

That being said, after reading through the logs and the unclear ranking situation I am leaning toward agreeing with both points here.

The escalation and RP was there, the use of lethals was too much.

What I would like to see happen next time is to ahelp instead of getting yourself in trouble, escalating to quickly, taking things into your own hands and so on are things you should know better by now.

I'll be replacing the ban with a warning and try to annoy a lore person into adding more ranking information to the wiki, since the pilot is not the only new ghost spawner we got for the TCFL now.

Considering this one as resolved. Should questions remain from either side, shoot me a DM.