Full Chem Rework Feedback Thread

[Chada1]

As of now, the Chemistry wiki page has been updated. If you find any errors, please let me know.

One thing to note, many drugs require a certain amount metabolized AND in your bloodstream to overdose, those that need an amount metabolized isn't included in the chemistry page, so if you put too much into someone and then quickly dialysis them, most of the time, you'll avoid an overdose. Don't think this is a bug, tho, it's entirely intended.

https://wiki.aurorastation.org/index.php?title=Guide_to_Chemistry
^ Updated chem guide there.

Edited September 1, 2020 by Chada1

[NG+7 Gael]

Big +1 from me, love the changes to OD values as well as the additional effects of ODing and mixing chemicals. Makes people put at least a bit more thought into how they handle and use different chemicals, plus probably giving chemists more to do based on whatever doctors request. Only real concern was the wiki being fully updated, but that seems to be getting taken care of, so I can't think of anything negative about this.

[Chada1]

On 04/09/2020 at 21:42, NG+7 Gael said:

Big +1 from me, love the changes to OD values as well as the additional effects of ODing and mixing chemicals. Makes people put at least a bit more thought into how they handle and use different chemicals, plus probably giving chemists more to do based on whatever doctors request. Only real concern was the wiki being fully updated, but that seems to be getting taken care of, so I can't think of anything negative about this.

TYVM for the feedback. ? I rushed the wiki page out specifically to get it all out there for people to read/etc, so I'm glad that part helped out.

For transparencies sake, RMT is being raised to 40 OD and will metabolize much slower (Thanks to Hocka), and people seem most receptive to negative effects to non-offworlders who take that drug, tho I dunno if we're gonna expand it past how it is rn.

Edited September 7, 2020 by Chada1

[StationCrab]

The recipe for Saline Plus is a bit annoying to make for something meant to replace iron pills, any chance you can adjust the recipe? Maybe just simplify things and make it 1:1:1.

Other than that I love where this PR is going.

[Chada1]

On 09/09/2020 at 17:52, StationCrab said:

The recipe for Saline Plus is a bit annoying to make for something meant to replace iron pills, any chance you can adjust the recipe? Maybe just simplify things and make it 1:1:1.

Other than that I love where this PR is going.

Me and Kermit talked about it and the main issue rn is Saline Plus is actually Extremely strong so it can't be made less expensive without actually nerfing its power, when put into an IV, it's as good as an entire 3 O- blood bags. Now, one thing we considered is just making the other ingredients 1u/1u and leaving the Phoron cost at 5u, which makes it more convenient and simple to math together, but leaves the expense. We're planning changes soon™️ but we're not sure to what extent it'll be convenience/nerfs, if we keep it at its current strength the ingredients will be 1-1 (with 5u phoron), if we nerf it, it could all be 1-1 (with 1u phoron).

[StationCrab]

On 10/09/2020 at 19:03, Chada1 said:

Me and Kermit talked about it and the main issue rn is Saline Plus is actually Extremely strong so it can't be made less expensive without actually nerfing its power, when put into an IV, it's as good as an entire 3 O- blood bags. Now, one thing we considered is just making the other ingredients 1u/1u and leaving the Phoron cost at 5u, which makes it more convenient and simple to math together, but leaves the expense. We're planning changes soon™️ but we're not sure to what extent it'll be convenience/nerfs, if we keep it at its current strength the ingredients will be 1-1 (with 5u phoron), if we nerf it, it could all be 1-1 (with 1u phoron).

That is fine to keep the expense, the formula is just really annoying to math out.

[Lordnesh]

Are you considering reworking other recipes? Now that Bicaridine is essentially Kelotane, maybe you should simplify the formula? Kelotane is (iirc) just carbon and silicon, while Bicaridine is Inaprovaline (not base chemicals) and carbon (I think).

[TrainTN]

On a note semi-related to the one above, since Kelotane is accessible in the sleepers, and Bicaridine is now the brute equivalent of Kelotane, would it be too much to put Bicaridine in sleepers as well? Then the sleepers would have all the basic healing chems, allowing doctors to treat patients a little more easily without a pharmacist available, while still not being the most efficient possible way. Sleepers are rather underutilized most of the time anyway, I've observed.

[Lordnesh]

3 hours ago, TrainTN said:

On a note semi-related to the one above, since Kelotane is accessible in the sleepers, and Bicaridine is now the brute equivalent of Kelotane, would it be too much to put Bicaridine in sleepers as well? Then the sleepers would have all the basic healing chems, allowing doctors to treat patients a little more easily without a pharmacist available, while still not being the most efficient possible way. Sleepers are rather underutilized most of the time anyway, I've observed.

Is this a new thing they're adding? Sleepers don't have Kelotane in them at the moment.

[TrainTN]

20 minutes ago, Lordnesh said:

Is this a new thing they're adding? Sleepers don't have Kelotane in them at the moment.

Oh, they don't? I must have misremembered, and confused it with another server. Never mind then, my mistake.

[Chada1]

I'm open to the idea of adding the lowest tier of each damage type to the sleepers. ?

[Lordnesh]

3 hours ago, Chada1 said:

I'm open to the idea of adding the lowest tier of each damage type to the sleepers. ?

That might be good. One of my biggest issues with medical is lack of chemists.

As for the problem of lack of chemists, I'm not sure how to fix that. Maybe streamlining the recipes? I don't know though.

 

Although, now that I think about it some more. There are dermaline pills in the cabinet iirc. And you can always make tric easily.

[TrainTN]

6 hours ago, Chada1 said:

I'm open to the idea of adding the lowest tier of each damage type to the sleepers. ?

They already have Dexalin and Dylovene, as well as Inaprovaline to mix to create Tricordrazine. One could combine that with Kelotane and Bicaridine to treat wounded patients. So long as they're still outpaced by the stronger medicines, I think that's acceptable. It would also mean I wouldn't have to decide which versions to carry as a doctor, as I can rely on the sleepers for mild treatments and medicine bottles for severe ones. Doctors would be a little less reliant on having an active pharmacist, and the pharmacists can prioritize producing the stronger medicines and save the weaker ones for later if they so desire. I think it could be a decent boost to Medbay's quality-of-life without invalidating anything, unless I'm overlooking something.

If this was made a feature I'd also want the GTR cryotubes moved to the ICU and a second sleeper installed in the GTR, but that's a mapping suggestion, not a mechanical one.

[Chada1]

1 hour ago, Lordnesh said:

That might be good. One of my biggest issues with medical is lack of chemists.

As for the problem of lack of chemists, I'm not sure how to fix that. Maybe streamlining the recipes? I don't know though.

 

Although, now that I think about it some more. There are dermaline pills in the cabinet iirc. And you can always make tric easily.

Can't streamline them too much, but we can definitely simplify the most awful to make to try to increase their use, some chemists avoid making certain chems for no other reason than they can cause a headache, saline Plus is kinda like that rn.

We plan to try to increase the use of like, the weaker pain relievers and other weaker drugs by just making them more accessible and making them available alongside the other chems tho which is probably a good idea.

[StationCrab]

On 14/09/2020 at 22:28, Chada1 said:

I'm open to the idea of adding the lowest tier of each damage type to the sleepers. ?

Yes please. Especially with cloning gone, the lack of a chemist can lead to some unnecessary deaths without at least basic chemicals. The sleeper would see much more use if it had basic chemicals, and there is only one sleeper so it would still be a last resort with multiple patients piling in.

[Lordnesh]

26 minutes ago, StationCrab said:

Yes please. Especially with cloning gone, the lack of a chemist can lead to some unnecessary deaths without at least basic chemicals. The sleeper would see much more use if it had basic chemicals, and there is only one sleeper so it would still be a last resort with multiple patients piling in.

There's one sleeper in the GTR and one in the ICU.

[StationCrab]

On 16/09/2020 at 16:23, Lordnesh said:

There's one sleeper in the GTR and one in the ICU.

I stand corrected. For some reason I thought the one in the ICU was another scanner bed.

[Chada1]

On 17/09/2020 at 23:18, StationCrab said:

...

As of now, most of the things mentioned except the sleepers have been addressed, saline plus has been nerfed some and the recipe is simplified, no more odd numbers, and afew other changes too, credit to sadkermit for them.

[kermit]

Putting bicaridine into the sleepers isn't really a viable option as bicaridine can be overdosed to treat arterial bleeding. Bicaridine's healing properties have also barely been touched, and has always been a kelotane-equivalent to treating brute damage. 

One option considered is to put butazoline (which doesn't heal AB) into the medical cabinet besides the dermaline pills which, once I find the time, I will likely do. Would that solve the issue or there being no brute medication available despite there being burn medications available?

Edited October 6, 2020 by SadKermit
Typo

[TrainTN]

4 hours ago, SadKermit said:

Putting bicaridine into the sleepers isn't really a viable option as bicaridine can be overdosed to treat arterial bleeding.

Not very effectively, based on the one time I tried it. I dosed the patient with around 30u and the arterial bleeding never healed, had to send them in for surgery anyway.

[kermit]

1 hour ago, TrainTN said:

Not very effectively, based on the one time I tried it. I dosed the patient with around 30u and the arterial bleeding never healed, had to send them in for surgery anyway.

It is effective, however you need to use doses larger than 30u, as it's a 2% chance every tick over a 30u dose to treat arterial bleeding. If you inject exactly 30u, you're only rolling the dice once for arterial bleeding; if you inject more, you increase your chances. Adding bicaridine to sleepers or to the cabinet will remove a very large need for surgeons, as anyone can treat arterial bleeding just by using a sleeper or digging into the medicine cabinet.

Edited October 6, 2020 by SadKermit

[TrainTN]

11 hours ago, SadKermit said:

It is effective, however you need to use doses larger than 30u, as it's a 2% chance every tick over a 30u dose to treat arterial bleeding. If you inject exactly 30u, you're only rolling the dice once for arterial bleeding; if you inject more, you increase your chances. Adding bicaridine to sleepers or to the cabinet will remove a very large need for surgeons, as anyone can treat arterial bleeding just by using a sleeper or digging into the medicine cabinet.

Bicaridine OD threshold was lowered to 20u, according to the wiki. It seems I was just unlucky with the odds. I'd still argue it's an impractical treatment and it would be much easier to simply put them into surgery. Surgeons would still be very occupied fixing broken bones and organ damage, which usually accompany arterial bleeding anyway. When given the choice between slowly rolling dice and a certain quicker fix, most players would pick the latter, I think. I play Medical frequently and I certainly would, the OD treatment is only a last resort option.

[StationCrab]

On 05/10/2020 at 14:38, Chada1 said:

As of now, most of the things mentioned except the sleepers have been addressed, saline plus has been nerfed some and the recipe is simplified, no more odd numbers, and afew other changes too, credit to sadkermit for them.

Cheers to all of you for your efforts.

[WickedCybs]

I have been meaning to post about mortaphenyl. It was pretty ubiquitous in the past and many medical players still rely on using it when presented with pain and having it available. The problem from this is how long it persists in the bloodstream. In the blood it processes at a rate of 0.02 units per tick, and as it's always being injected with a minimum of five units It will last for over four to five minutes. Not the longest time, but that is four minutes of having a fuzzy screen, not being able to move well. It stops a player from doing much and if medical doesn't remember or know to diyal it out in a sleeper once its no longer needed it becomes a large annoyance. Injecting more than five units is pretty much always overkill.

I'm not exactly sure what a good solution to making it less painful to use is. Making it process a bit quicker is the obvious answer people will give. if it was possible, easing up the confusion and blurring effects so you aren't going out of place every other step and staring at a fuzzy world would be nice, to me. The confusion aspect is what irritates the most in the end.

Another part of the problem here is that people should be using perconel a lot more now considering its available in medi-vendors and doesn't have the harsh drawbacks of the stronger painkillers while still being useful. Walking wounded will generally be able to get by on it. Reinforcing its importance is up to medical players in the end, not something easy to solve. To further increase the presence of perconel in the department, the rescue RIG's mortaphenyl supply could probably be swapped over to that medicine without much issue.

 

[Chada1]

15 hours ago, WickedCybs said:

...

I'm not sure yet how I'll fix it, but I agree it's an issue, we originally made it this way so that security couldn't dose up on mortaphenyl and rush back into combat, but while we still want that, we'll likely adjust it so it's not as debilitating just so it's not as obnoxious to do basic work/roleplay with/etc.