Security Lockboxes for R&D-manufactured weapons

[Guest]

Title. The temptation to carry around 3 SMGs, 2 lawgivers and a package-wrapped laser cannon in your satchel at the end of the shift is honestly way too compromising and people haven't really been responsible enough with the weapons themselves. Allowing for lockboxes to hold the imprinted weapons from the protolathe would force science personnel to have to clear weapons release and testing with the Head of Security first, so that the HoS is the first to be aware when reports of gun/laser fire are reported around science.

And so that security can reliably bust some heads if experimental weapons are being taken out of their department.

[Jamini]

That is how it used to be.

It was changed on Bay about... six months ago or so to make science-based weapons more accessible to traitors.

Clearly this worked so well.

[Guest]

Traitors already possess the capability to grab an emag or three from their uplink. Lockboxes would be emaggable, but non-antags wouldn't be given access to high-lethality weaponry.

This is more of a focus on trying to give Science an identity of actually researching and developing technology and giving fluffiness to everything, rather than just handing out prototypes like candy and setting space tiles on fire.

[Jamini]

Traitors already possess the capability to grab an emag or three from their uplink. Lockboxes would be emaggable, but non-antags wouldn't be given access to high-lethality weaponry.

The idea, at least by the people that changed it in the first place, was that scientists shouldn't require an emag to use antagonist items from their department. You don't need to emag the plasma tank to get a canister of it as an atmos techie, or emag an energy rifle to use one was a warden. I may not agree with the reasoning, but that is why it was done upstream.

 

This is more of a focus on trying to give Science an identity of actually researching and developing technology and giving fluffiness to everything, rather than just handing out prototypes like candy and setting space tiles on fire.

 

I can outright say from experience the exact opposite of what you intend will occur. Weapons research will become a non-entity entirely, as security will rarely/virtually never permit weapons testing. Assuming, of course, they can even attend the test at all (which is unlikely to happen.) What will happen is, essentially, people will take Durond weapon systems circuits to get the research up, then never touch it again. Just as it has happened on multiple servers in the past.

I've had a specific a weapons-specialist scientist in the past, before lockboxes were removed. It took me weeks of getting known, several rounds playing as both a warden and a scientist (making friends in both departments) and battalions of red-tape every round, speaking to the RD, Captain, and HOS (as well as occasionally the warden) to even get considered to be permitted to perform legitimate weapons tests on the firing range with the warden present. Your security are not that dissimilar to the security of the server in question, in fact some of your regulars were very specifically FROM that security department. Doing this would completely curtail or remove any chance of weapons science being done, legitimate or not.

I'm not saying this is a bad idea, or a good idea. I personally do not have a strong opinion on the matter. However I /can/ state that doing this will significantly reduce the options and roleplay opportunities that science can engage in, further weakening the department as a whole. Considering science is already the least-staffed and arguably least-fun department on the station, I would be Very very very very very very cautious about placing even more restrictions on them.

[Guest]

Considering science is already the least-staffed and arguably least-fun department on the station, I would be Very very very very very very cautious about placing even more restrictions on them.

 

This is kind of the point where I can tell you haven't played science in the healthy way, nor have you gotten creative about what you can even do, but I'm not going to continue on that.

You can do so much more in science than just weapons testing. There is so much available fluff in the game that nobody uses. There is an entire list of Corporate Forms for science to use and abuse and wave/waive in people's faces if they get them signed and filled out.

Science in-game is not meant for shooting protohumans up with guns. As a common science regular, I will find things to do that will occupy me for hours on end. It is about learning new things and documenting those things for others to observe the data and results and attempt to reproduce it.

The temptation of mass-producing weaponry just because you can is blatant abuse of station resources and equipment, whether you keep it in the department or not.

And if you're one of those scientists that maxes R&D and then do nothing fluffy with it, you're honestly doing your job wrong and aren't promoting good roleplay.

[Jamini]

This is kind of the point where I can tell you haven't played science in the healthy way, nor have you gotten creative about what you can even do, but I'm not going to continue on that.

 

No you can't. Please stop making assumptions that are blatantly untrue. Personal attacks have no place here, nor is that even remotely accurate.

 

You can do so much more in science than just weapons testing. There is so much available fluff in the game that nobody uses. There is an entire list of Corporate Forms for science to use and abuse and wave/waive in people's faces if they get them signed and filled out.

 

I never said there wasn't. I'm saying that this will pretty much 100% certainly kill that branch of RnD. Getting those forms signed and permission granted for this sort of thing is a rediculous amount of effort that the normal player will not go through. I have but there are Others do not want too and will not do so.

 

Science in-game is not meant for shooting protohumans up with guns. As a common science regular, I will find things to do that will occupy me for hours on end. It is about learning new things and documenting those things for others to observe the data and results and attempt to reproduce it.

 

I have never, ever done this. Why are you assuming I have? What is with the needless personal attacks?

 

The temptation of mass-producing weaponry just because you can is blatant abuse of station resources and equipment, whether you keep it in the department or not.

And if you're one of those scientists that maxes R&D and then do nothing fluffy with it, you're honestly doing your job wrong and aren't promoting good roleplay.

 

More blatant assumptions and needless personal attacks. I'm telling you what I have seen people do when lock-boxes existed. You have no reason to be so hostile in response to what has been the case when what you want to do was implemented previously.

[Guest]

I don't think you're getting my point here. I am not needlessly attacking you. Do not interpret any of my posts as aggressive or attacking you. I am not your enemy.

Here's a question. What makes you think that, assuming we do the same thing Baystation did. Is it really going to tear apart R&D? Because, honestly, as it stands right now, it's played as if it's cargo but with prototype equipment. When I play R&D, I do not make weapons. Not anymore, no. My IC knowledge is that, they are prototype weaponry that is caustic and volatile. They are unstable lethal weapons that can be made with some minor knowledge on how to upgrade the research levels and can actually be accessed by the lab assistant to make lots of guns.

On your second point. Paperwork is a very large element of a workplace roleplay environment. It exists so that it is documented and doesn't warrant the Head of Security claiming the scientist's own ass and hanging it up in their own office. I don't wanna file paperwork either, but it's a necessity. Those players will have to just play along.

And about what people did that you saw when lock-boxes existed. Yes, I would imagine security would be very concerned about a scientist wanting to test potentially dangerous weapons in either their own department or in the security department. You shouldn't be surprised that people are either distrustful or wary of new people, that's how it works in the real world, too. You built up the trust of a security department and managed to get people to know you and interact with the community as a whole. That's not bad at all and I applaud you for doing it before. And you're here now, contributing as well. That's like, great.

If you honestly think that I post on these forums just to get off on 'personally attack' people (or, specifically, given our conversations on the forums here, you?) with serious discussions, I can't say I'm anything other than disappointed.

The intention of this suggestion is to stop problematic scientists from abusing the resources and equipment they are given to make low-risk and high-reward items that will very well make a very grief-ridden experience for everyone else. It's been done too many times and it should not only be stopped by IC intervention, but by a change of certain mechanics so that we don't get a bunch of copycats in the near future.

[Jamini]

Here's a question. What makes you think that, assuming we do the same thing Baystation did. Is it really going to tear apart R&D? Because, honestly, as it stands right now, it's played as if it's cargo but with prototype equipment. When I play R&D, I do not make weapons. Not anymore, no. My IC knowledge is that, they are prototype weaponry that is caustic and volatile. They are unstable lethal weapons that can be made with some minor knowledge on how to upgrade the research levels and can actually be accessed by the lab assistant to make lots of guns.

 

You are mistaken on the timeline here.

1. Weapons from the protolathe originally came from lockboxes. This was changed on Bay so that they do not, Aurora inherited this change.

2. Before the lockboxes were removed. Weapons were never, ever made by RnD outside of VERY specific circumstances. Almost exclusively traitors.

3. I had specifically made a character that specialized in them and went well out of my way to get permission/work with security. It took me weeks to even have a small chance to be able to do proper tests and studies on them during the round. Often it was dismissed out of hand. Mind, this was WITH paperwork and a character with an exceptionally clean record.

4. Will it tear apart RnD? Of course not. It will, however, needlessly reduce their automony and effectiveness in what is objectively the least-played department on the station. There are more regular Chef players than there are scientists.

 

On your second point. Paperwork is a very large element of a workplace roleplay environment. It exists so that it is documented and doesn't warrant the Head of Security claiming the scientist's own ass and hanging it up in their own office. I don't wanna file paperwork either, but it's a necessity. Those players will have to just play along.

 

There is a huge difference between getting paperwork from your boss and testing something under controlled conditions that are approved, and having to have two of the busiest people on the station manually open up every single lock-box. And if you say "give them access/get access" from the HOP I will slap you, as current lock-boxes are armory-locked, and no sane command staff would EVER give out armory access to scientist!

 

And about what people did that you saw when lock-boxes existed. Yes, I would imagine security would be very concerned about a scientist wanting to test potentially dangerous weapons in either their own department or in the security department. You shouldn't be surprised that people are either distrustful or wary of new people, that's how it works in the real world, too. You built up the trust of a security department and managed to get people to know you and interact with the community as a whole. That's not bad at all and I applaud you for doing it before. And you're here now, contributing as well. That's like, great.

Once again, there is a world of difference between getting permission and having to have the warden sit there and unlock every single lockbox. Especially as warden is a very, very busy job is played right. HOS even moreso.

 

The intention of this suggestion is to stop problematic scientists from abusing the resources and equipment they are given to make low-risk and high-reward items that will very well make a very grief-ridden experience for everyone else. It's been done too many times and it should not only be stopped by IC intervention, but by a change of certain mechanics so that we don't get a bunch of copycats in the near future.

 

A better solution would be to recruit/promote more Research Directors to prevent this abuse. That is pretty much precisely the job of the Director, to approve and deny research avenues. If you don't have one join, an appropriately responsible scientist should be promoted.

[duck]

As someone from the same age as before lockboxes were taken away, forcing warden access really does completely limit weapons research. No one will do it. No one will let you do it. I think, and I was pretty prolific back then? That I manufactured weapons-for-use a grand total of like three times ever. All during events where a lot of people were trying to kill us. Lockboxes are a terrible answer.

Getting minerals is already improbable. Getting a scientist who will do R&D is another thing. Add getting in a warden to babysit and open boxes for you and guns become pretty much an impossibility.

Jobbans are a thing y'know. Make player complaints? I think Nightmare is the only non-zombie I've ever shot to death.

The thing about finding 'things that can occupy you for hours' is that eventually those things run out. Eventually, you've got the toxins formulas down pat. R&D becomes a 5-10 minute chore (which produces nothing of use ever except guns, honestly. if you have suggestions for better items, i'm all for it.) Even breaking into mining and getting minerals becomes routine.

When my coworkers are gun-toting hooligans, what I do is discretely put in as many diamonds as I need and then stuff the rest into my backpack. Problem solved, for the most part.

Or, y'know.

jobbans.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Why not compromise and make lockboxes accessible by the RD?

[Jamini]

Why not compromise and make lockboxes accessible by the RD?

 

You would need to change the access on them from Armory access. I'd be for it.

[Guest]

Why not compromise and make lockboxes accessible by the RD?

 

Considered this. Might be better off if we do this.

Didn't suggest it because I was yelled at earlier for suggesting it in OOC because "oh, dumb. and bad. stuff."

[canon35]

I'd be up for RD-access-needing lockboxes. And, if a scientist wants to be weapons testing unhindered, then they'd go up to the brig and ask to use the firing range with the help of a warden/HoS/officer.

[Blue]

Lockboxes being on all weapons and needing to be opened by the warden/HoS is a huge heeeeeeell no from me. I've been around before that. Jamini and Duck are 1100% correct.

Lockboxes for the RD is meh...it would mean that you'd have to have an RD if you hope of testing anything, or even finishing RnD. Honestly, it seems to be more inhibiting of the scientists with self-control to test what they want to test.

[Vanagandr]

The gift-wrapped laser cannon sounds like a bug to me.

If non-antag scientists are running about with their own body-weight in weapons, or rapid syringe guns loaded with Chloral, or a pack full of transfer valves Justin Case, the problem isn't with the lockboxes (or lack thereof).

A Warden who had the armoury in his backpack on the shuttle would be getting asked some pointed questions by staff and the same goes for John Rambo, Ph.D.

[Nik]

Eh. I've seen too many ends of rounds with someone who ate a lawgiver due to an argument or some antag choice. It's not pleasant.

I'd just suggest having boxes on the Top-Tier weapons that have actual threat, not some crummy protopistol. Lawgiver, Laser Cannon, that shiz, with RD access or above, such as HOS, HOP and cap. That way, you can research weapons, but not have some random ijit whose made a lawgiver and is waiting to robust the antagonist.

[Carver]

I remember the lockboxes from Bay-days being a pain not just for Science, but for Security as well for the rounds when you didn't have a Warden/HoS/Captain so the things were essentially dead weights. It'll make science much more useless if they decide to show force during a Rev/Cult/Mutiny round, as well, whilst making them need to call the Warden over every two minutes for weapons research.

I was a supporter of no lockboxes back then, and I won't change my viewpoint nowadays just because a few problem scientists like to pack heat now and then. Looser restrictions on weaponry isn't a bad thing until you bring griefers/shitheels into the equation.

[EvilBrage]

A much more efficient way to deal with the issue is for security to actually enforce one of the directives that we have now: science materials are not to be brought outside R&D, period, without written permission. So if they end up gunning down a t8r, rather than hailing them as a hero, arrest their sorry asses.

[Nik]

As the title says, Scientists shouldn't be able to just whip up Laser Cannons and Law Givers and whatever the hell else awful things they can get without them popping out with a lockbox on them.

Suggesting everything above a Proto Pistol gains a lockbox, with the protopistol and below retaining their lack of a lockbox. Frankly, it's just one of those things where every scientist is carrying around a protopistol anyway, we can at least stop it from being advanced laser rifles.

[Jamini]

I really don't know if this needs its own thread.

I'd be honestly for just having all weapons in lockboxes locked to RD access. If a RD is abusing their privilege of weapon-making and distribution, a very quick talking-too or white-list removal can solve it.

[Guest]

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