Disable wizard powers from being used when stunned.

[Guest]

Honestly nothing is more frustrating than attempting to pacify the annoying as hell 'peacewizard' that uses their powers to grief security and escape stuns by teleporting to a remote location security has no access to.

The wizard should be punished for tanking stun bolts, pepperspray or even stun batons. They shouldn't be able to get a 'get out of jail and stuns free' card because mechanics. This change would force wizards to think before taking on security rather than just living forever or getting met with a lethal laser to the face and then dying 20 minutes later, resulting in the antagonist complaining about getting rekt in deadchat and OOC after the round as well as claiming shitcurity.

[Blue]

I think a better alternative would be to increase the cooldown for magic missile. The whole point of the wizard's teleporting powers is to be elusive.

If the wizard spams powers with security around and they get killed because of it, they can complain and cry all the want. Won't do anything. Totally their fault for forcing sec's hand.

[Jamini]

Oppose this on the sheer fact that this suggestion would make security even more likely to try and rambo off antagonists.

Bum-rushing a wizard should be stupidly dangerous and only done if the wizard in question is indisputably hostile. It shoud not be: "Stun once. Security wins. GGNORE"

Killing a wizard should be about finesse. Not brute force.

[Skull132]

The wizard should be punished for tanking stun bolts, pepperspray or even stun batons. They shouldn't be able to get a 'get out of jail and stuns free' card because mechanics.

 

No, but see, they should. An antagonist should have directly countering mechanics to their opposition. In this case, a Wizard should have the abilities that give him the opportunity to evade capture. As simple as that. Also, consider the following: once cuffed and captured, a wizard loses a minimum of his staff. That already draws away from his potential. If he escapes, he'll have to double his efforts of play, or seek his staff back. So it is not a, "Get out of jail free card." It's more like a tactical smoke screen where he pulls out to lick his wounds, and continue with what he has left.

[Guest]

Except a wizard can spam their abilities as much as they like to evade capture. As much as I would like to capture a wizard alive with blink, teleport, EMP, magic missile with all of those spells having very short cooldowns, it simply cannot be done. A wizard can singlehandedly disarm all nonlethal options for security, save for pepperspray or a lucky-ass throwbaton. And then they can stun 3 heavily armed officers if they wanted to, with a 15 second downtime. There is no reasonable manner in which you can counter a wizard besides permakilling them by lasering them to the face and ordering DNC when they die of infection. And the staff is not relevant because you don't need the staff to use wizard spells. You only need the wizard clothing, and I'm not going to get yelled at or slapped on the wrist for metagaming and stripping a wizard down to nothing so they can cool their shits for more than two seconds.

Wizard was initially designed as an antagonist that could only be stopped if someone went out of their way to kill them, otherwise they would go on to wreak havoc onboard the station even if the crew did not wrong the wizard in any way.

I don't want to have to adopt a "No Mr. Antag I expect you to DIE" attitude every time a wizard decides it'd be funny to chucklefuck security and abuse the power they have to throw fun and roleplay out the window. I would anticipate minimal interaction and escalation as to why the wizard is doing what they are doing.

But the amount of power they have at their disposal to literally counter every nonlethal solution is stupid.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Guest

[Skull132]

The only ability which I would want to, and have wanted to touch, is magic missile. Perma stunlocking is a bit shit.

But beyond that, there are ways to subdue a wizard properly. You just can't do it alone, as security. There are at least two departments which have supplies to assist security in the capture of a wizard. Also, if the wizard keeps raising the bar to the point where security is forced to attack it with lethal force, then it's his problem. Just don't get complacent and don't take this as green light to deduce a wizard's capture to "Yaaay, we got him. Yaaay, he escaped. Yaaay, we get to shoot him now." There have been many wizards captured in the past, it can be done again.

[Guest]

I would suggest that using one spell softlocks using other spells for a duration of 5 seconds. Really short, but at the same time it'll stop the ridiculous EMP/magic missile combo.

As for magic missile, I'd think upping the cooldown for it to 60 seconds would be fair.

[Jamini]

Five seconds is a VERY long time in a fight.

Security is not and should not be the answer for every antagonist ever. Especially when it is a SOLE antagonist game-type. If someone is alone against the entire station, they need ridiculous power combos to even stand a chance when (not if, when) security decides to try and gank their ass.

Did I say gank? Yes. I did. Our security force is leagues gankier than almost all antagonists that I've seen. It is disgusting the shit that security players get away with.

If you want to nerf wizards, nerf their tools that are unfair towards the target. Soulstones, staff of change, el Nieath (which was nerfed) etc. Don't go nerfing their primary defensive ability because you, as security, don't want to be in danger when fighting what is supposed to be a highly dangerous and unpredictable foe.

[Susan]

Well, then don't complain when we inevitably have to blow the wizard's face off because it is literally impossible for us to contain him safely.

I don't really care if the wizards spam their powers so long as they understand the consequences of doing so, namely being shot to death.

[Jamini]

Well, then don't complain when we inevitably have to blow the wizard's face off because it is literally impossible for us to contain him safely.

 

Muzzle.

Spolo/Chloral Darts - Hypospray/Autoinjector/Grenades

Nitrus Oxide.

You have no excuse. A wizard can always be contained.

In a sole antagonist game mode, security should be forced to look outside of their department to handle the antagonist. Attempting to take on a solo antagonist without station-wide backup should result in a loss for the crew members attempting so, excepting extreme circumstances.

[Susan]

Muzzle.

Metagame.

 

Spolo/Chloral Darts - Hypospray/Autoinjector/Grenades

Lethal and/or the dude eventually wakes up, perma sedation is as good as being dead except you can't become a new character.

 

Nitrus Oxide.

Too much collateral damage, plus if they can teleport out of cuffs they can teleport out of gas.

 

In a sole antagonist game mode, security should be forced to look outside of their department to handle the antagonist. Attempting to take on a solo antagonist without station-wide backup should result in a loss for the crew members attempting so, excepting extreme circumstances.

A wizard has a head. It has a brain. Shooting someone in the head kills them. Ergo all you need to take on a wizard is a gun and half a brain on how to handle his magic.

If you're trying to suggest we need to buff wizards so you need a crowd of angry pitchforked crewmen to even scratch the guy, then pls no.

[Guest]

I can feel the hostility in this post. While I agree the wizard should be capable of escape, it should not be always allowed. Honestly, good wizards don't even get to the point they have to teleport out of a stun. That said, the mode doesn't end when he's captured, it ends when he's killed. Reducing the need to kill wizards should be a priority, as given a chance, most players would go for the non-lethal alternative. That's almost impossible with wizards.

[Guest]

Five seconds is a VERY long time in a fight.

Security is not and should not be the answer for every antagonist ever. Especially when it is a SOLE antagonist game-type. If someone is alone against the entire station, they need ridiculous power combos to even stand a chance when (not if, when) security decides to try and gank their ass.

Did I say gank? Yes. I did. Our security force is leagues gankier than almost all antagonists that I've seen. It is disgusting the shit that security players get away with.

If you want to nerf wizards, nerf their tools that are unfair towards the target. Soulstones, staff of change, el Nieath (which was nerfed) etc. Don't go nerfing their primary defensive ability because you, as security, don't want to be in danger when fighting what is supposed to be a highly dangerous and unpredictable foe.

 

Being able to utilize cover and dodge for more than five seconds is not such an awful time, unless you're unrobust as all hell and don't know how to avoid really awful situations.

Actually, security is the answer to every violent or criminal antagonist. In terms of the wizard, what is known right away is that the wizard is an intruding stowaway that certainly does not belong on the station. Even if security did not know about their powers, they are still a security risk. They are not medical's problem, they are not engineering's problem, they are not science's problem, they are not science's problem. They are security's problem. And security has to deal with it, otherwise they are not doing their job and are neglecting their duty, as well as risking the entire station spiraling down into chaos. Security must maintain control of the situation, that is their job. The thing is, about antagonists that have all this power, is that there's a lot of responsibility attached to it. Meaning, as they use it or perhaps even flaunt it, consequences are going to pop up. The station and its crew are most certainly going to be affected when a wizard comes onboard with EMP, knock, blink, teleport and magic missile. It's gonna be a cheese-fest until security gets extremely pissed off with their antics and warrants lethal force to pacify the out of control antagonist. It's not gank if there was sufficient enough reason and escalation to put down the antag.

And security being ganky is an issue you need to bring up with administration. Point out targets, name names, even if you don't have enough info for a valid complaint, admins will definitely take this info into account and watch the names you brought up. Hell, you've seen me HoS and know I'm completely intolerant of shitcurity-like behavior, even if I'm the headantagonist. If you have OOC complaints about certain security personnel, relay them to me and I will watch them as well and back you up in a complaint or make one myself.

I don't mind staff of change, soulstones or ei nath. These are offensive tools that provoke a security response, that's fine. Hell, I would LOVE to be a shade/construct, so freaking bad, even if I die literally instantly. If it leads up to more assault-wizard fun, all the freaking power to them. However, wizards should not be indestructible to nonlethal pacification. They should have a way to be detained without even more blood being spilled.

I absolutely despise killing antagonists, OOCly. I will not kill unless the antagonist has escalated to a ridiculous 0 to 88 mph, has gotten to a point where killing them is the only way to end the chaos, or if they imminently threaten the life of myself and/or others.

[Jamini]

Muzzle.

Metagame.

 

Not really. If you hear him screaming the same words every time he uses Magic MIssile, it's fair game. I've gotten permission to muzzle bodyswitchers before. MM spammers are no different.

 

Spolo/Chloral Darts - Hypospray/Autoinjector/Grenades

Lethal and/or the dude eventually wakes up, perma sedation is as good as being dead except you can't become a new character.

You only need to keep them down long enough to strip 'em and muzzle 'em. If they get a lethal dose of chloral... oh well?

 

Nitrus Oxide.

Too much collateral damage, plus if they can teleport out of cuffs they can teleport out of gas.

 

You cannot teleport if you are unconscious. Do not underestimate a nitrus flood.

The collateral is minimal if you have even one halfway competent atmospheric technician or AI.

All station staff have internals they can use to get away, or get friends trapped to safety.

Plus keeping a wizard under with surgery anasthetic also applies here.

 

In a sole antagonist game mode, security should be forced to look outside of their department to handle the antagonist. Attempting to take on a solo antagonist without station-wide backup should result in a loss for the crew members attempting so, excepting extreme circumstances.

A wizard has a head. It has a brain. Shooting someone in the head kills them. Ergo all you need to take on a wizard is a gun and half a brain on how to handle his magic.

If you're trying to suggest we need to buff wizards so you need a crowd of angry pitchforked crewmen to even scratch the guy, then pls no.

 

I'm not suggesting buffing wizards. I'm saying they don't need a nerf in any way. Excepting soul shards, wizards are fine.

I do feel that security should need to rely on the rest of the station more, however. They aren't supposed to be the end-all be-all of the station by any means, nor should they be.

Our first response to a threat should not always be "shoot it". If it is, then security equipment needs to be toned down to curb such behavior.

[duck]

I like my wizards deadly. They're the only antags that are really bragworthy of bagging, unless you can do like a whole nuke ops team by yourself.

The difference between a major-league antagonist and the kiddy pool has always been mobility. Balance has never been part of the wizard equation, and an experienced wizard can easily murder an unprepared station, the ert, and their next of kin without taking a scratch. Which is not to say they're invincible. You just need to be smart about it. Two taser shots will put an unawares wizard down unconscious. No teleporting, no spells. Out for long enough for you to get up and retase even if you've been MMed. Just need to dodge the glowy homing slow purple balls for long enough to give the wizard the zaps.

Alternatively, it should be noted that dying isn't dead.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

>"We can't cooperate with medical for chloral syringe guns because we could overdose the wizard and kill him."

>"The best way to deal with a wizard is to blow his brains out."

?????

There's a single antagonist, guys. As soon as you capture permanently him the round becomes extended. I don't think we can force wizards to be little babies that sec can just pewpewded or throw in perma because that's not what people voted for. If you don't wanna deal with wizards being total buttlords, but they aren't breaking any game rules, then idk how to help that if you chose to spawn in.

[fate/nermul]

I always thought the wizard should be a Big tough Opponent that, if he uses his talents correctly, could be more dangerous than anything.

and if everyone cooperates and helps each other, they can easily take down the Wizard

Basically I think we should leave wizards were they are right now, just tell Security to work with medbay to make Soporific guns, Shoot the wiz with a Sopor gun and Bam, insta-win,

I hate this IPC mc security "Oh no a wizard" Hos McHeadofsecurity "GET THE LETHALS WERE GOIN' ON A WITCH HUNT"

because, we're a RP server, not a Combat server, the main goal of the game is to RP and act realistically, not to hunt down Antags

(well, it is Security's job to stop crime, so its kinda they're job to hunt down the badguys but also to RP)

So, Rant over, Nuff Said

[Guest]

Having to turn to medical every single wizard round for soporific or for Chloral Hydrate is not an interesting solution to nonlethally put down the antagonist, because doping someone with either effectually makes them as interactive as if they were dead.

That is not an interesting resolution for the antagonist either. I would rather be lasered to the face nine million times and be able to respawn as a different character 30 minutes later rather than sit in the medbay for up to 2 full hours until the station decides what the fuck to do with me.

In addition, let me tell you about the last time I tried to get the departments to work together to save themselves and eventually take down the antagonists when they assaulted the station in full force:

Beginning of a nuke round. Nukies steal the nuclear device by blowing up the vault because they're so utterly interesting. They attempt some stupid D&D tabletop simulator no one has any interest in. Everyone wants to survive and not get killed, so do I. I move to cargo to order shotguns and to barricade myself and a person or two in to protect the nuke disk and ourselves while we coordinate security on the terrorist issue.

Shotguns arrive. Engineers are looking all over for me because they're lost puppies or something. They see me pull out a shotgun and maglock it to my bulletproof vest, and start going "gimme gimme gimme gun, promise we be responsible!"

Me being the fucking idiot I am, I arm engineering up as a militia. I tell them to stick together and not to go hunting for ops.

Surprise surprise, they go hunting for the antagonists and risk themselves getting killed. One medical doctor that had training in firearms got their skull shattered because of two SMG rounds entering their head. Another engineer dies due to internal bleeding. We bag one nuke op into a stasis bag and take them to medical to stabilize and be pacified with drugs.

As soon as the rest of the engineers with guns and fire axes arrive to the medbay to get their engineering buddy treatment, one particular engineer opens up the stasis bag, with myself and a doctor going "Uhhh". That same engineer then pulls out a fucking fire axe and begins chopping off every single one of the nuke op's limbs without even fucking blinking. It was the coldest, most fucking sociopathic and otherwise inhumane things I've ever had to witness from any character on this server. It was utterly unfuckingbelievable, extremely out of character and incredibly immersion breaking. I get talked to by the administration for spiraling shit so out of control with one decision that was made in rather awful judgement, for being responsible for the actions of so many people who made god-awfully more stupid decisions than I did.

Having the station "work together" to beat the antagonists is an awful choice to make with unimaginable repercussions, even if the decision was made with good intent. There is a reason why self-antagging/vigilantism is against the rules.

Security is solely responsible for everyone. They have to be stern and poke into your business and stop people from doing awful things and be labelled shitcurity because they were either too hard or too soft or too mean or too kind. There is no winning at all, the only thing you can do is stop bad shit from getting even worse.

And that is why I often advocate escalating to lethal force as soon as a wizard starts getting shitty. Because it is impossible to regain control after the wizard starts turning the entire crew against them even though security did nothing except their job.

[Jamini]

Having to turn to medical every single wizard round for soporific or for Chloral Hydrate is not an interesting solution to nonlethally put down the antagonist, because doping someone with either effectually makes them as interactive as if they were dead.

 

Use necessary force. Not every single wizard is going to go full lethal, and neither should you. That said, if a wizard is moving about and killing people/soul sharding people with little or no RP you are totally within your right to turn to medical for chloral or engineering for nitrus.

 

That is not an interesting resolution for the antagonist either. I would rather be lasered to the face nine million times and be able to respawn as a different character 30 minutes later rather than sit in the medbay for up to 2 full hours until the station decides what the fuck to do with me.

 

No offense, but some people have a different idea than you do of fun. The last thing I want when playing antagonist is to be murdered by the crew. In fact, the fact that some security routinely and needlessly escalates situations for the explicit purpose of getting the go-ahead to get their murderboner on is why I dislike most of the department.

Don't believe me? Just last night I had Sue complaining to me that she accidentally shot a bystander who walked in front killing of her seven times while shooting a ling. When I asked how the hell she managed to do that I was responded with she wasn't fully paying attention to what she was shooting.

 

DnD Round

 

Quite frankly, that round sounds a million times more fucking interesting than the bulk of the "security lockdown, nobody have fun anywhere ever" rounds that we normally get in engineering. Your entire commentary about that round basically boils down to "Nobody but Security should have fun fighting/resisting antagonists" which is absolute horseshit. The rest of the station does NOT exist for the sole purpose of providing with security with an objective to protect.

That said, it sounds like administration had a lot of people to talk too about realistic actions/reactions/responsibility that round.

 

Security is solely responsible for everyone.

 

This attitude is wrong. 100% wrong. If you are thinking this, you shouldn't be in security. Security exists to keep people from excess and ensure that command is followed, they are not responsible for the rest of the station. That is what Heads of Staff are for. Quite frankly, security as a whole and especially the head of security need to start taking a back-seat more often. They need to step back and go "This is not my problem". The station staff do not exist on the fucking whim of security. Security exists to protect the station staff.

Some officers/players get this, some do not.

 

And that is why I often advocate escalating to lethal force as soon as a wizard starts getting shitty. Because it is impossible to regain control after the wizard starts turning the entire crew against them even though security did nothing except their job.

 

If the crew is turning against you, you are doing something wrong. Re-evaluate your actions and clarify why you are doing what you are doing. Going straight to lethals is shitty for everyone involved and a terrible modus operati.

The gankier and more violent security are, the gankier and more violent antagonists will be. Everyone suffers when security try and flex their muscles in excess, and the worse YOU act towards a player who is getting the rare round where they get to play the "bad guy", the more likely they are to pull nastier crap on you in the future. I've personally made a point in a recent ling round to make security's job as difficult as possible: destroying/making bodies almost unrecoverable, Covering my tracks far too well, and abusing range hallucination stings (which are a jerkish thing to do) in escape. Why? Because my ling round before that I was so heavily metagamed and EXECUTED with such piss-poor excuses that I put up a player complaint on the issue. I have absolutely no regrets about my actions in that following changeling round, as security has shown me that they have no intention of matching my level of restraint with any restraint of their own.

[Susan]

Use necessary force. Not every single wizard is going to go full lethal, and neither should you. That said, if a wizard is moving about and killing people/soul sharding people with little or no RP you are totally within your right to turn to medical for chloral or engineering for nitrus.

Why bother when shooting him dead achieves the same thing. The dude is literally running around murdering crew and you're still harping on non-lethal takedowns? Let me explain something to you - in the situation you just proposed, lethal force is 100% justifiable and should be used. The wizard is a danger to myself and the people around me, ergo my life and others are in danger so blowing his face off is the next logical step because he's already doing that himself to other people. I will never understand why some players seem to think that even if the guy has just gone on a revolver murder spree and is armed with 6 shotguns, if security uses lethal force they're baddies omg.

The necessary force to respond to someone killing people is equal, IE since they are using lethal force I am going to use lethal force.

 

No offense, but some people have a different idea than you do of fun. The last thing I want when playing antagonist is to be murdered by the crew. In fact, the fact that some security routinely and needlessly escalates situations for the explicit purpose of getting the go-ahead to get their murderboner on is why I dislike most of the department.

Don't believe me? Just last night I had Sue complaining to me that she accidentally shot a bystander who walked in front killing of her seven times while shooting a ling. When I asked how the hell she managed to do that I was responded with she wasn't fully paying attention to what she was shooting.

 

Don't try to use me to justify your logical fallacies. It was 1 am in the morning and I was shooting someone, what kind of idiot runs in front of someone actively shooting a gun? The changeling had broken into my office, shot at both me and my officers, escaped confinement, Central gave us the go ahead to kill it, and it had regenerated from lasers about 3 times. I was well within my rights to go and blow it's head off - no, I did not expect some doctor to decide to run in front of a gun actively being fired. Not my fault.

 

And that is why I often advocate escalating to lethal force as soon as a wizard starts getting shitty. Because it is impossible to regain control after the wizard starts turning the entire crew against them even though security did nothing except their job.

 

If the crew is turning against you, you are doing something wrong. Re-evaluate your actions and clarify why you are doing what you are doing. Going straight to lethals is shitty for everyone involved and a terrible modus operati.

 

Not really, because the crew is often full of irrational security hate boners. It's awfuly presumptuous to pretend that the crew is always right and security is the one always at fault, and the crew never doesn't have a reason to start their bitching. This isn't bias at all.

 

The gankier and more violent security are, the gankier and more violent antagonists will be. Everyone suffers when security try and flex their muscles in excess, and the worse YOU act towards a player who is getting the rare round where they get to play the "bad guy", the more likely they are to pull nastier crap on you in the future. I've personally made a point in a recent ling round to make security's job as difficult as possible: destroying/making bodies almost unrecoverable, Covering my tracks far too well, and abusing range hallucination stings (which are a jerkish thing to do) in escape. Why? Because my ling round before that I was so heavily metagamed and EXECUTED with such piss-poor excuses that I put up a player complaint on the issue. I have absolutely no regrets about my actions in that following changeling round, as security has shown me that they have no intention of matching my level of restraint with any restraint of their own.

 

Congratulations. Your argument has lost basically all credibility because you've just become a massive hypocrite. Good job. Who exactly did you punish with that ling round there, Jamini? Security? Was security the dude you murdered and then cremated unfairly? Evidently it's okay when you do these powergamey things because you're trying to teach, uh... someone? a lesson. It's a double bladed sword, you know. The gankier and violent you are as an antag, the more I am going to respond in kind. I don't really care what happened to you during the last changeling round. You made a player complaint, it's being handled. You have absolutely no right or justification to do the things you've done and still try to hold the high ground.

You're sensible. No idea why you seem to think fighting fire with fire (assuming there is any fire to fight at all to begin with) will lead to a favorable outcome. I don't see a guy 'taking a stand', I see a hypocrite who is metagrudging - since you're holding a grudge OOCly about what a HoS who rarely ever plays did, and acting on it even after having the staff review your complaint - and using some misguided security hate as justification for his questionable actions.

[Jamini]

The necessary force to respond to someone killing people is equal, IE since they are using lethal force I am going to use lethal force.

 

Because the original point of this thread was bitching about wizards being able to use powers while downed, Sue. Chloral is a fair counter to that. Regardless if you like it or not. Also, chloral darts are FAR more efficient at taking down wizards due to the one shot nature.

I never said lethal force isn't justified. I am saying that you should not be bitching if you lose a lethal on lethal fight against an opponent who is supposed to be 100% stronger than you.

 

Don't try to use me to justify your logical fallacies. It was 1 am in the morning and I was shooting someone, what kind of idiot runs in front of someone actively shooting a gun? The changeling had broken into my office, shot at both me and my officers, escaped confinement, Central gave us the go ahead to kill it, and it had regenerated from lasers about 3 times. I was well within my rights to go and blow it's head off - no, I did not expect some doctor to decide to run in front of a gun actively being fired. Not my fault.

 

I have no issue with you killing the ling. I took issue with you shooting the body full of bullets when it had stopped moving to the point where you shot up a bystander by accident (A dumb bystander, but still a bystander)

 

Not really, because the crew is often full of irrational security hate boners. It's awfuly presumptuous to pretend that the crew is always right and security is the one always at fault, and the crew never doesn't have a reason to start their bitching. This isn't bias at all.

 

The hatred for security by a good portion of the crew is anything but irrational. The crew is not always in the right, but weather they are in the right or not is not relevant to how security responds. Two wrongs do not make a right, and excess on the part of security is rarely justifiable.

 

Congratulations. Your argument has lost basically all credibility because you've just become a massive hypocrite. Good job.

 

My point completely flew over your head there Sue. Let me make it clearer:

If an antagonist is treated unfairly by security, they will act in a manner that will prevent them from having to deal with security. The faster security go to lethals and needlessly restrict antagonists from acting, the more likely you are to have antagonists that will abuse or powergame their way to avoid having their round shat upon.

What I am saying? Dalton's actions are not islolated or even rare. If you do not give an antagonist player leniency and room to act, you cannot expect them to do so in turn. If you continue to choke down on antagonists, normal station crew are caught in the crossfire. Extremely violent antagonists and hostile security will cause even more resentment of security for both not doing their jobs properly as well as acting in a manner that makes security hated.

Antagonists are not the constant in this equation. Antagonists are randomly selected and being one is uncommon. The constant in the equation are security. If you want antagonists to be less violent and more interesting, security are the ones that need to hold back first. Restraint is a trait that is valuable in any position of power. If you can't show it, then why the hell should you expect the people who have to face security to show it?

I had a round where I was an extremely restrained antagonist, to the point where I was ICly pointing out all the things I could have done had I not revealed myself. The next round I was an antag, due to feeling that I would have a nearly identical course of action taken on me had I been found out, I acted in a manner that was much less fun in order to avoid having my own chance at playing the other side, a fairly rare chance, ripped away from me unfairly. I do not feel that I am alone in any way in this sentiment.

[Blue]

I'm just gonna say.

All you need to make a wizard lose is a gun. Any kind of gun. Just shoot them anywhere. Legs, arms, chest, head, doesn't matter. If they don't die, they will die unless they seek treatment. Internal bleeding, infections, live shrapnel in your body, etc. While in medical's care, it would be easy to disrobe him without someone screaming "META!", as it would be common for surgeons to disrobe patients and for security to dress him in orange before taking him in.

Even if the wizard survives, his round is over. That is all.