Staff Complaint :( - Pratepresidenten

[Bear]

BYOND Key: abigbear
Staff BYOND Key: pratepresidenten
Game ID:  ccC-dqNk
Reason for complaint: I hate writing these, and I want to preface that I think prate is a fantastic admin regardless of the outcome. But I want to contest this warning as I feel the context of point of view here is important.

In this round, a burglar became a high priority target, got into a scuffle, and became subject to a tear gas grenade. So there is a story ahead.

Leading up to the events, a burglar had boarded the station posing as an undocumented security officer in armor. They had broken into the vault quietly, got caught and yeeted the entire security team with a bluespace inhibitor in preparation for what I assume was their own teleportation shenanigans.

I found myself stuck in the medical basement and had the cmo come dig me out. Made my way upstairs and come to see the burglar in the pharmacy drenched in blood. I then hear the pharmacist is hurt over comms and go to intervene.

 

Here is where perspective comes into play. The antag's sprite is doing melee lunge animations, however their target is past my view range. I called out to the antag and got no response. A medic asked them what they were doing and got no response. But the antag was still posting at his victim. From our point of view it looked like we were actively being ignored. Hesring the pharmacist was hurt, factoring the vault break, factoring the teleport memes, and that they were armored with an exposed face i opted to start with a tear gas grenade. I prime it and then this is where the antag and his new hostage comes into my view range though he us still unarmed. However I am now committed and in the pharmacy, the antag's back is to me. So I am my pistol, movement triggers a fire not that this mattered at this point as the grenade was active. The grenade pops and I tag another shot while charging up, and the antag teleports away and I did not persue just yet as I had tear gassed the pharmacist as well who was bleeding. The antag did not teleport far however and I found them detained after handing the pharmacist off to an intern.

It looks like we were just ignored from this angle. What i could not see was the pharmacist fighting the antag during this entire time in a situation I assumed the antag had complete control over and the injured pharmacist had only actually been struck a couple of times despite the blood pools on the floor making it look far worse than it was. I do genuinely feel bad for this burglar. If I had been able to see this, I would not have instantly engaged and given this antagonist more time.

But I can only operate off of what I can see. The role of the job is to protect the crew. So I operated on what I thought was best on the knowledge I had. Here is the excerpt from my vantage point attached to this.

I understand prate's points. And he brings up a good point about assumptions. It does make an ass out of everyone after all and if I had been able to see the whole thing I would have taken a far different approach. But as I could not see the victim, or the attack logs in live time, I had to make a judgment call using only a basic security kit with non lethal armaments to protect what I thought was a helpless medical professional and don't want another warning when I have been trying really hard to keep my nose clean.

Evidence/logs/etc:
Additional remarks: Sorry for the fuss. And again I do feel bad for the antagonist and apologize for shutting them down.

[Pratepresidenten]

I should note that the burglar at chemistry was a different one than the one at the vault. There were two of them.

[Bear]

I did not know this. I thought they were the same one as I never actually got eyes on the other one then. I feel even worse about that.

[Garnascus]

It is really difficult to figure out what you're trying to say in this post. You attacked an antag when prate thinks you should not have? @Pratepresidenten @Bear

[Pratepresidenten]

I took issue with bear preemptively priming a teargas grenade with minimal knowledge of the situation, forcing combat, spesifically in this case, more or less an instant takedown of the antag. The hostage had barely been bruised and they had moderately bashed the antag before they were wrangled into a neckgrab. Not too long after, bear comes in, aims, and shoots the hostage repeatedly before chucking the teargas grenade. As seen in the screenshot posted, the grenade was primed prior to any rp attempts, which struck a really bad chord with me.

There was absolutely no attempt at any meaningful dialogue with the antag aside from two hello's which were ignored/missed because the antag was talking and actively fighting with the pharmacist. I found the excuse of being ignored very flimsy when it came to the escalation.

I would not have taken issue to the engagement had it been the other burglar, so the problem boils down to bear failing to ID check the person and assumed it was the same guy, forcing instant combat with an uninvolved antag.

[Bear]

I very much understand where Prate is coming from, however, due to my limited viewpoint due to line of sight restriction I'm simply asking for leniency and do not think it was warning worthy.

After myself and the paramedic were ignored it looked like fighting was still going on with sprite movements lunging at the victim off screen and his continued interaction with his victim. The antag was armored but unarmed with no visible weapon sprite and I knew stun weaponry would be ineffective.

It wasnt until after I had primed the tear gas grenade that his new hostage entered my view.

If i had known there was hostage and not just someone getting beat I would have backed off. If I had known the antag was getting attacked by the victim I would probably have given them more time but all I knew was the pharmacist was "hurt" and there was a fair amount of blood on the floor.

-I also assumed this was the same fake officer that had raided the vault so the ante was upped as they had already escaped us once.

I can only act on what I could see. And what I could see suggested an armored man, who I thought I was hunting down, stomping a medical pharmacist.

Edited June 29, 2021 by Bear
Typo

[Garnascus]

On 29/06/2021 at 05:31, Pratepresidenten said:

I took issue with bear preemptively priming a teargas grenade with minimal knowledge of the situation, forcing combat, spesifically in this case, more or less an instant takedown of the antag.

Didn't @Bear see the antag attacking "SOMEONE" just not knowing who? Isnt bear kind of obligated to step in and stop this? 

[Pratepresidenten]

There wasnt an active fight anymore when sec got into chemistry as the pharmacist had already been neckgrabbed. There were no weapons or threats being flung around, no active harm to the hostage either. As soon as sec breached, the hostage was shot multiple times and the area teargassed.

If they were actively trashing the pharmacist, then yes, they'd be obligated to step in. But this was not the case at all in my opinion.

 

[Bear]

7 hours ago, Pratepresidenten said:

There wasnt an active fight anymore when sec got into chemistry as the pharmacist had already been neckgrabbed. There were no weapons or threats being flung around, no active harm to the hostage either. As soon as sec breached, the hostage was shot multiple times and the area teargassed.

If they were actively trashing the pharmacist, then yes, they'd be obligated to step in. But this was not the case at all in my opinion.

 

No see i disagree here. The fight was actively going on until a literal moment at most before my entering. I couldnt see this because the antag's victim was off my screen. You can see this on my screen as the "resist" long pops up with me entering the pharmacy after arming my grenade.  

I had seen them fighting while exiting the medbay. There was no reason to assume they had stopped fighting as the antag's sprite was still lunging at his target off screen. He was simply off my screen. And by the time I was able to recognize that he was a hostage, I'd already committed by arming the teargas grenade. No matter what I did at this point would still escalate as any movement of the grenade still says "hey I'm attacking."

At this point though i was committed.  This is why I didn't give it more than the hellos and the paramedic's comment. I assumed they were *still* fighting. Plus this is an unarmed antag so it's not like he was brandishing a gun and rearing to blow the the pharmacist's brains it just looked like he was beating his ass.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Bear
Entered too early/better explanation.

[Garnascus]

18 hours ago, Pratepresidenten said:

There wasnt an active fight anymore when sec got into chemistry as the pharmacist had already been neckgrabbed.

Well, according to the screenshot bear posted he tries asking "whats going on" then the guy is grabbed and neckgrabbed WHILE bear is standing there. then the guy tries removing the PDA of the guy he has neckgrabbed in which case bear throws his tear gas grenade. 

[Bear]

You know I've looked at that screen shot at least ten times. And this is the first time I've noticed those smaller red lines saying exactly that. As I ignored it with the spam of text and the code change announcement and was only looking for the large red fly texts like the PDA one which is the same size as attacks and just assumed they were not there because I could not see the target. Especially as I've gotten used to reading the fly texts over people's head.

 

That's my bad. It was genuinely an accident which is why I made this complaint as I've been trying to avoid a warning since my last back in last year. But I missed info in the text spam that would have changed this outcome.

I will make a suggestion to change the grapple text size in the suggestions section.

[Bear]

Double post.

Went ahead and made the suggestion and thankfully thegreywolf is fast AF at this. Hopefully this implemented for ayers like me who not so good at following the chat during stressful situations.

https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/12125

Feeling pretty dumb ngl lol.

I guess the warning is fair and can withdraw this. Accident or not it was my fault for not seeing it. My textbox is usually half the size of the screenshot. I just stretched it for the complaint so I wrote it off as a bug fuck off annoucement spam.

[Garnascus]

Ok i understand. 

Locking and archiving as OP has retracted this complaint.