1 dismissal The Case For Removing ERTs.

[Kintsugi]

The ERT is a controversial thing. It has a mixed reputation - some defend it as an absolute necessity to prevent rounds from devolving into total chaos as soon as security is defeated or outnumbered - others, like myself, feel it was a necessary evil that ultimately took the problem out of the hands of the station crew and placed it into the hands of faceless, heavily armored non-characters. Its sole redeeming factor was the fact that it could grant IC representation to lore factions that otherwise would not get it.

But now the ERT is outmoded.

The Horizon has more avenues of ending a threat that has overwhelmed security - it has the crew armory, more armed crew, and more guns lying around, available to be pressed into action in an emergency. 

As for the crew being wiped out, and IC representation for lore factions? Third-party ships exist to fill this niche. While there is doubtlessly risk of them showing up too early - the risk is the same for an ERT being called too early. And what's better is that third party ships can have consistent characters aboard them, instead of faceless goons that will never be seen again.

In the face of the changing setting of the server, and the different mechanical situation ingame, I think ERTs should no longer exist at the beck and call of the ship. Don't outright remove them - but restrict them to being locked behind an admin's approval, like HAPT teams. If they're really, absolutely needed, an admin can send one. Otherwise, it's up to people actually in the game to solve an issue.

[Boggle08]

I think the biggest downside of having ERT's at the beck and call of command is that they make rounds cyclical and formulaic. Most ERT's are tough enough to put down most problems on the station by themselves, and they have whatever vestiges of the station that are still around to back them up. Because command would sooner reach for the ERT than arm the crew, this fed into a climate of having everyone except command, security, and medical sit on their hands and wait for things to end inside their departments. The station almost never lost, but it came at the expense of every round playing out the same once security became overwhelmed.

I think the Paradigm for ERT's going forward is to make them less consistent and equipped to deal with all problems. Our best equipped ERT squads are practically canon event volunteers with ultrakill guns. Normal beacon response teams shouldn't be able to completely supplant the station's defense. The primary benefit of using the beacon from a round design standpoint is to have a chance at getting more able hands to help sort out a problem. The station can compensate for discrepancies in equipment using science and cargo, they can't do the same with crew depletion. The equipment these ERT's come with can be highly variable, and if they show up insufficiently prepared, It's the ship's problem to fix that.

Edited April 27, 2022 by Boggle08

[Boggle08]

Also this might be a silly idea, but instead of relying on beacons, we could also just implement a system where command hits a button and off-duty security officers from the lower decks grab shit from an auxiliary armory and take the lift up.

Edited April 27, 2022 by Boggle08

[Arrow768]

17 hours ago, DanseMacabre said:

[...] others, like myself, feel it was a necessary evil that ultimately took the problem out of the hands of the station crew and placed it into the hands of faceless, heavily armored non-characters. Its sole redeeming factor was the fact that it could grant IC representation to lore factions that otherwise would not get it. [...]

The Horizon has more avenues of ending a threat that has overwhelmed security - it has the crew armory, more armed crew, and more guns lying around, available to be pressed into action in an emergency. 

As for the crew being wiped out, and IC representation for lore factions? Third-party ships exist to fill this niche. While there is doubtlessly risk of them showing up too early - the risk is the same for an ERT being called too early. And what's better is that third party ships can have consistent characters aboard them, instead of faceless goons that will never be seen again.

In the face of the changing setting of the server, and the different mechanical situation ingame, I think ERTs should no longer exist at the beck and call of the ship. Don't outright remove them - but restrict them to being locked behind an admin's approval, like HAPT teams. If they're really, absolutely needed, an admin can send one. Otherwise, it's up to people actually in the game to solve an issue.

One of your main arguments is that the ERT are "faceless, heavily armored non-characters where as this is not the case with external ships.
This claim is fundamentally flawed, as both the ERT and the external ship currently use the ghost spawner system to spawn in these characters.
There is no rule in either case that forbids or requires characters that are more than faceless, heavily armored non-characters.
(And with the current mechanics it is not possible to provide the ability to save/load a consistent character for the ghost spawners)

If someone wants to play a "faceless, heavily armored non-character", they can also do that via the external ships.
And if someone wants to play a character that is more than a "facless, heavily armored non-character" then they can also do that via any of the ERT teams.

Another issue with the external ships, when it comes to the ERT, is that it is (currently) not possible to load them in at runtime without major lag spikes/issues.
Therefore the "external assistance" is limited to w/e is loaded in at roundstart.
Depending on what is loaded in at roundstart that might not actually be any assistance.

I do agree that command should explore all other avenues before calling for a ERT (including arming the crew when possible).
This is something that should be communicated to the command players and enforced by the mods/mins in the game.

With all that said, I am voting for dismissal.

[Marlon P.]

I agree with OP in regards to the "ERT" as in the corporate hardsuit stooges.

I disagree with removing other "erts" that which have personality/pizazz. The Legion for example was great bcuz they are balanced/you can play one onstation.

So if i understand OP right, i think i am a -1? Because you want all erts gone?

Edited April 27, 2022 by Marlon P.

[Kintsugi]

48 minutes ago, Arrow768 said:

One of your main arguments is that the ERT are "faceless, heavily armored non-characters where as this is not the case with external ships.
This claim is fundamentally flawed, as both the ERT and the external ship currently use the ghost spawner system to spawn in these characters.
There is no rule in either case that forbids or requires characters that are more than faceless, heavily armored non-characters.
(And with the current mechanics it is not possible to provide the ability to save/load a consistent character for the ghost spawners)

If someone wants to play a "faceless, heavily armored non-character", they can also do that via the external ships.
And if someone wants to play a character that is more than a "facless, heavily armored non-character" then they can also do that via any of the ERT teams.

I disagree completely as far as ERTs allowing you to play legitimate characters is concerned. The fact of the matter is that the frequency in which you have opportunities to play an ERT "character" and the time window you're presented within a round completely prevents you from achieving meaningful character development (and that fact their very involvement is non-canon in the first place). An ERT character played once a month for an hour window at each time and is immediately forgotten is hardly a character at all - merely a story element, a deus ex machina that arrives to change the narrative from its logical and fair conclusion.

Third party ships spawn more frequently than ERTs, are around for the entire round, and can actually be remembered by the people they are involved with - just because the system they use to spawn in is the same as the ERT, doesn't mean they're similar in any respects. 

Finally, this isn't advocating for the outright removal of ERTs - it is advocating for the removal their automatic spawning when two characters arbitrarily decide "now is the time" by pressing a button on their screen. ERTs should be locked behind an admin decision, so if there really IS a need for one, and there really ISN'T any alternative, they can be sent in. For example, if no third party ship spawned.

[Lucaken]

One of my main issues with this suggestion is that third party ships are not nearly solid enough as a concept to supersede ERTs in any way. The system for determining whether or not they can be hostile, and to what degree, is very much a work-in-progress. Community attitudes toward them are still underdeveloped or just plain misunderstood (see: the EE ship trouble being discussed in a different thread). Their variety and frequency is still in question. It is way, way too early to definitively say they could function as a clean-up/support crew - hell, we don’t even really know if they will be allowed to intervene with the antag’s gimmicks. It’s all up in the air, and making claims about them right now is more than a bit hasty. I agree they have a lot of potential, but we are far from having guaranteed it.

I also agree with Arrow that there isn’t really a difference between faceless ERT characters and faceless third party ship characters - technically speaking Danse is right in saying that there would be more chances with the latter, but I still find it unlikely for characters like that to appear often enough and have a big enough impact for it to make a difference in this discussion.

I think we should reconsider or refactor ERTs once everything is in place, and a good couple of rounds have went by. We need more experience and examples to cast a good judgement here, both of which I think we currently lack. I would have maybe agreed to making them adminbus dependent if the crew armory was strong enough to turn the tide in most cases - another factor which I am not very confident in. 

[Fluffy]

ERTs are currently admin-spawn only, therefore this suggestion is considered effectively implemented for the normal game loop.

Locking and archiving.