Complaint - Ana Roh'hi'tin

[Gollee]

I am going to have to disagree with you, Frances, I believe that Sue's actions here were wholly out of line. Her character picked a fight on the escape shuttle, with no cause, since the target was simply sitting on a tug, it wasn't moving. And Ana decided to hurl insults at them, sic security on them, and harmbaton them when they tried to defend themselves from, what I see as, an unprovoked attack for the point of stress relief.

I don't see it as acceptable.

[Frances]

So Sue claims, but my story is a bit different. I'm not going to go into that however. It really doesn't matter.

You have already gone into that by calling Sue's actions unjust. You cannot complain about something, then simply dismiss evidence presented against you that would make this complaint invalid because you are not interested in dealing with it.

 

If anything I would think surviving an explosion would make her character show a softer side. You know, what with being thankful for not being blown to bits and all...but that's all subjective, and a pitiful excuse for what she did.

That's putting thoughts into someone's head, and you can't really do that. Everyone reacts differently to conflict, and I think Sue's reaction was realistic.

 

Look, we can keep going back and forth like this but the bottom line is that security's job is to diffuse conflict and ensure the safety of the crew. If an officer is actively creating and then escalating conflict...well do you see the problem? What would you do to a janitor who slips floors and creates messes?

This is the crux of the issue here. People making these complaints essentially believe that security should be held to an absolute standard to always to their jobs, no matter what. I don't believe this should be the case - and in fact it breaks realism more than it creates it. If people are supposed to simply stand there, do their jobs, never get upset, and take all insults and provocations from antags and crew alike with a smile, we will end up with an incredibly sterile gameworld.

[Frances]

I am going to have to disagree with you, Frances, I believe that Sue's actions here were wholly out of line. Her character picked a fight on the escape shuttle, with no cause, since the target was simply sitting on a tug, it wasn't moving. And Ana decided to hurl insults at them, sic security on them, and harmbaton them when they tried to defend themselves from, what I see as, an unprovoked attack for the point of stress relief.

I don't see it as acceptable.

I will maintain that the call, although bad IC, was justified for the sake of roleplay.

[Gollee]

Look, we can keep going back and forth like this but the bottom line is that security's job is to diffuse conflict and ensure the safety of the crew. If an officer is actively creating and then escalating conflict...well do you see the problem? What would you do to a janitor who slips floors and creates messes?

This is the crux of the issue here. People making these complaints essentially believe that security should be held to an absolute standard to always to their jobs, no matter what. I don't believe this should be the case - and in fact it breaks realism more than it creates it. If people are supposed to simply stand there, do their jobs, never get upset, and take all insults and provocations from antags and crew alike with a smile, we will end up with an incredibly sterile gameworld.

 

There is a difference between a justifiable IC call due to provocation, and leaping on a nearby person who has not broken the law in any way in their current actions, insulting them, and harmbatoning them when they try and defend themselves from an unprovoked attack.

[Frances]

harmbatoning them when they try and defend themselves from an unprovoked attack.

i do not know how many times i will have to say this but the harmbatoning clearly came from the person resisting arrest and trying to take an officer's weapon

sdsjkgfjghjfs

[Rusty Shackleford]

This is the crux of the issue here. People making these complaints essentially believe that security should be held to an absolute standard to always to their jobs, no matter what. I don't believe this should be the case - and in fact it breaks realism more than it creates it. If people are supposed to simply stand there, do their jobs, never get upset, and take all insults and provocations from antags and crew alike with a smile, we will end up with an incredibly sterile gameworld.

 

The thing is, it's not just an isolated incident. This apparently happens on a regular basis, with Ana picking fights and using excessive force. This is a string of bad behavior that needs to be corrected. If it's not, a security job ban might be the necessary course of action.

[Gollee]

harmbatoning them when they try and defend themselves from an unprovoked attack.

i do not know how many times i will have to say this but the harmbatoning clearly came from the person resisting arrest and trying to take an officer's weapon

sdsjkgfjghjfs

 

Except the person was trying to defend themselves after Ana started a fight on the escape shuttle without any proper reason.

To me, at least, this seems like a very clear case of end of round grief. Ana went after someone who had done nothing wrong, on the shuttle, and when that person attempted to defend themselves, they were beaten.

That is end of round grief; almost the definition of the term.

[Chaznoodles]

harmbatoning them when they try and defend themselves from an unprovoked attack.

i do not know how many times i will have to say this but the harmbatoning clearly came from the person resisting arrest and trying to take an officer's weapon

sdsjkgfjghjfs

 

Actually, the harmbatoning came from Sue insulting the character, siccing all of Security on them for responding in kind, and said person defending themselves. There was no need at all for the incident to have happened, but Sue provoked it and made it escalate to the point of this complaint. This has been stated repeatedly but you appear to be taking no notice of this.

[Frances]

The thing is, it's not just an isolated incident. This apparently happens on a regular basis, with Ana picking fights and using excessive force. This is a string of bad behavior that needs to be corrected. If it's not, a security job ban might be the necessary course of action.

I have repeatedly asked for a single valid recent incident to be provided here. Anything at all. It still hasn't been posted.

 

Except the person was trying to defend themselves after Ana started a fight on the escape shuttle without any proper reason.

Actually, the harmbatoning came from Sue insulting the character, siccing all of Security on them for responding in kind, and said person defending themselves. There was no need at all for the incident to have happened, but Sue provoked it and made it escalate to the point of this complaint. This has been stated repeatedly but you appear to be taking no notice of this.

Security had a reason to arrest this person. Whether the charges were BS does not make it so that every single event following them can be thrown out. This is like saying that because someone slapped you once, you have a right to react however you want in complete impunity.

Person runs away from sec, person tries to steal a weapon from sec, person gets harmbatoned. If the initial charge was ridiculous, then we should look at the initial charge being ridiculous as its own contained incident. The charge did not cause the harmbatoning. The person resisting arrest did.

[Gollee]

Except the person was trying to defend themselves after Ana started a fight on the escape shuttle without any proper reason.

Actually, the harmbatoning came from Sue insulting the character, siccing all of Security on them for responding in kind, and said person defending themselves. There was no need at all for the incident to have happened, but Sue provoked it and made it escalate to the point of this complaint. This has been stated repeatedly but you appear to be taking no notice of this.

Security had a reason to arrest this person. Whether the charges were BS does not make it so that every single event following them can be thrown out. This is like saying that because someone slapped you once, you have a right to react however you want in complete impunity.

Person runs away from sec, person tries to steal a weapon from sec, person gets harmbatoned. If the initial charge was ridiculous, then we should look at the initial charge being ridiculous as its own contained incident. The charge did not cause the harmbatoning. The person resisting arrest did.

 

The fact that the interim head of security started a fight on the escape shuttle without any reasonable cause is the issue, not what security did. Ana went out of her way to cause conflict on the escape shuttle when it was unnecessary.

-End-round grief is punishable by an automatic 3-day ban. The moment the shuttle docks with the station, all conflict is expected to end in and around the shuttle boarding area. (Escape and adjacent corridor).

[Frances]

The fact that the interim head of security started a fight

She attempted to arrest someone. The reason why this situation turned into a fight is because that person decided to run, and thus the actual conflict ending in the harmbatoning should not be attributed to Sue. I don't think anyone should be blamed for it, as the situation evolved quite organically.

 

-End-round grief is punishable by an automatic 3-day ban. The moment the shuttle docks with the station, all conflict is expected to end in and around the shuttle boarding area. (Escape and adjacent corridor).

This rule was written to prevent people from starting physical fights within the shuttle, nothing more. While a lot of factors were at play here, I believe people should have the responsibility not to /escalate/ end-round fights into physical altercations. So if you want to be a baddie or have a verbal fight with your friend, you can, but it shouldn't devolve into a fistfight.

[Gollee]

The fact that the interim head of security started a fight

She attempted to arrest someone. The reason why this situation turned into a fight is because that person decided to run, and thus the actual conflict ending in the harmbatoning should not be attributed to Sue. I don't think anyone should be blamed for it, as the situation evolved quite organically.

 

-End-round grief is punishable by an automatic 3-day ban. The moment the shuttle docks with the station, all conflict is expected to end in and around the shuttle boarding area. (Escape and adjacent corridor).

This rule was written to prevent people from starting physical fights within the shuttle, nothing more. While a lot of factors were at play here, I believe people should have the responsibility not to /escalate/ end-round fights into physical altercations. So if you want to be a baddie or have a verbal fight with your friend, you can, but it shouldn't devolve into a fistfight.

 

Ana started a conflict on the escape shuttle without cause, it wasn't a verbal fight with a friend, it was Ana arbitarily deciding to shout that person out, then set all of security on them when they responded. Ana deliberately started an unnecessary, ridiculous conflict on the escape shuttle without any good reason. That is end of round grief.

[Frances]

Ana started a conflict on the escape shuttle without cause, it wasn't a verbal fight with a friend, it was Ana arbitarily deciding to shout that person out, then set all of security on them when they responded. Ana deliberately started an unnecessary, ridiculous conflict on the escape shuttle without any good reason. That is end of round grief.

This is the same fallacy that everyone seems to be jumping to.

Ana was simply conducting an arrest. Whether the arrest was abusive or not, the fact that the perpetrator decided to run around and resist until they got harmbatonned was their own fault, not hers.

[Gollee]

Ana was conducting an abusive arrest, on the escape shuttle, creating a conflict that should not have occurred, as it is categorized as end of round grief.

[Frances]

Ana was conducting an abusive arrest, on the escape shuttle, creating a conflict that should not have occurred, as it is categorized as end of round grief.

What exactly was end round grief in that? The running around and harmbatonning, or the whole thing?

[Gollee]

The whole initiation of the conflict by Ana, it was unnecessary, did not serve roleplay in anyway for anyone, all it did was serve as a outlet for aggression.

[Frances]

The whole initiation of the conflict by Ana, it was unnecessary, did not serve roleplay in anyway for anyone, all it did was serve as a outlet for aggression.

But you don't believe that by running away instead of submitting to the arrest and trying to protest it in a peaceful manner, the other involved party was exposing themselves to the consequences of that?

I'm not saying they fucked up either. But the harmbatonning didn't happen "just cause".

[Gollee]

I don't care about the harmbatonning, Sue explained it, and apologised. I am concerned with the fact she deliberately started a conflict with no reason on the escape shuttle. That is literally the definition, in the rule of EOR grief.

[Doomberg]

Let's start with a quick definition of end round grief. End round grief is pretty much performing any sort of /physical/ hostile action on yourself or others, especially if it generates attack logs. It refers to physical conflict. Fights. Unless Ana is gifted with Thu'um (forgive the shoddy attempt at relieving tension), I do not believe her insults physically harmed the character in question.

As for the argument of the harmbaton being end round grief, let us take into account the fact that the suspect disarmed a security officer - which is, yes, a hostile physical action that generates logs - of his weapon before being subdued and smacked. Had Ana harmbatonned the suspect for the insult, this would have been an entirely different story. The harmbaton was a result of resisting arrest, assault, and theft of a weapon from a security officer.

The IC motivation for this is there. Half of the command staff was lost to a mad bomber and Ana was practically drafted to command security - she did not have a choice.

Should Ana be fired, at this point? Very likely. Can you get her fired? Potentially. http://aurorastation.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=81 first step begins right here. This is perfect material for an IC report, and grounds for IC punishment, but I cannot, in good conscience, punish someone OOCly because their character was being mean.

[Chaznoodles]

I have a question for those looking at this thread to answer: If a bald Security officer, new to the server, had done this exact same thing, and this exact same request had been posted, what would your reactions be?

 

Should Ana be fired, at this point? Very likely. Can you get her fired? Potentially. http://aurorastation.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=81 first step begins right here. This is perfect material for an IC report, and grounds for IC punishment, but I cannot, in good conscience, punish someone OOCly because their character was being mean.

 

Thing is, this player obviously does not feel it was resolved ICly, so has brought it to an OOC section of the forums for it to be resolved OOCly. If they wanted it resolved ICly, they would have put it in the character section.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

There was no attempt to resolve it IC'ly. I'm going to repeat that this would be a great thing to push IC'ly. You can force the canon "during a security situation Ana did X" so you don't reference directly deaths or what-have-you.

[Doomberg]

I have a question for those looking at this thread to answer: If a bald Security officer, new to the server, had done this exact same thing, and this exact same request had been posted, what would your reactions be?

 

The very same on my end, because I see this as an IC issue. I will confess that I believe it would have been dealt with in a different fashion ICly, though.

 

Thing is, this player obviously does not feel it was resolved ICly, so has brought it to an OOC section of the forums for it to be resolved OOCly. If they wanted it resolved ICly, they would have put it in the character section.

The incident report forum is for when people feel that an IC issue was not appropriately resolved ICly, which is precisely what this is. As said previously, I cannot punish anyone OOCly for having a mean character/being ICly abusive when justified. That's for the DOs to sort out, but they cannot act on OOC information, which is why I HEAVILY encourage people to post incident reports for things like this.

[Gollee]

Going to have to disagree with you, Doom. There is a difference between having a mean character, and kicking off a conflict involving half a dozen people (Including the officers), on the escape shuttle, without good reason.

[EvilBrage]

The difference between a harm baton and a disarm baton is a few seconds of stun time (skewed favorably towards disarm, ironically) and 15 points of force damage. The minimum amount of damage to the chest required to suffer breakage is 40 - so unless there is some sort of "critical hit" system that's been installed lately, it's impossible for Ana to have hit him two times and caused a broken ribcage. I'm more inclined to say it was four. This should not be the main focus of an OOC complaint, however, and I do encourage that particular section of conflict to be resolved ICly through the Duty Officers.

However.

 

Chaz is incredibly biased, as am I against he. I severely dislike him, and the sentiment is equally returned, so it doesn't surprise me to see him immediately jump in on the side against me despite ample arguments over the points he's brought up previously either debunking or explaining them, as he seems wont to do in several threads.

 

While what Frances says is true - that there is no solid evidence of anything particularly damning that Sue has done, I doubt that Chaz, Jackboot, Rusty, Cassie, Gollee, Tiber, Zonk, Starfish, and myself are all blowing our interactions with Sue out of proportion and there truly exists no problem. This entire thread should serve as a reminder to take screenshots when you see the behavior in question.

[Chaznoodles]

Here's the thing, when posting on a report or dealing with a case, I move myself to be completely unbiased. What I have posted on this thread are my completely unbiased views on this case, as I would post on any other thread, so there's no use in pulling bias into it.