You guys have to calm down

[Guest]

Alright, I had a bit of a talk with Skull on this subject, I think I understand what I should be posting about.

10 pages of blood orgy. As he said. Apt description, I guess.

So, as far as I know, the entire subject was regarding people ganging up on each other. We all fucked up in this aspect, guys. We did that in that other thread on the complaint on Sue, and that was pretty fucked up. What we did was that we attacked, and then we defended, and didn't do anything to solve the issue.

Skull put this into math terms. He brought up a term, the parameter. In math, this is a letter in which you assign a value. X, y, z, a, b, c.

In the case here, let's say that parameter is equal to Sue. We find a applicable solution.

Example. X^2=4. We can say that x = 2. This is correct. 2 to the second power is indeed, 4.

However. The equation has two answers, does it not? Instead of solving the problem entirely, we only got half of it. Can you guess what the other solution is?

x can also be = -2.

The point that Skull made, just to sum this up. Sue is an indication to a problem, but not the problem.

He observed that many of us, were not looking to solve the problem. We were focusing on the parameter. And we flung shit at each other. Only a few people in that thread, as he stated, really phrased the question.

What we should've done, was this. Step one, clarify the rules on a few key notes. Draw a clear line on issues where you need one (such as when we realized that x^2 = 4 has two answers, and not just one). And then we have a solution.

Crescentise did a really good job at summing up where the actual issue lied. It was lack of rule clarification. That is the issue.

I would also like to commend Tainavaa for that proverb. That was... rather fitting. For the situation that occurred.

http://aurorastation.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=2047&start=50#p20013

Take from this what you will. I'm not going to explain this one, it means something different to different people.

And... another thing regarding complaints, that Skull stated, and I took as valuable advice. Let's avoid dropping names when regarding issues. Just, period. This thread derailed and focused on Sue as soon as her name was dropped enough times, and we lost focus on the original post.

[Cassie]

The point that Skull made, just to sum this up. Sue is an indication to a problem, but not the problem.

He observed that many of us, were not looking to solve the problem. We were focusing on the parameter. And we flung shit at each other. Only a few people in that thread, as he stated, really phrased the question.

What we should've done, was this. Step one, clarify the rules on a few key notes. Draw a clear line on issues where you need one (such as when we realized that x^2 = 4 has two answers, and not just one). And then we have a solution.

Crescentise did a really good job at summing up where the actual issue lied. It was lack of rule clarification. That is the issue.

 

Dude stop.

That is not fair at all 1138. I've been highlighting the lack of certainty on rules way before. What kind of mediation is it to take a moral high ground, ignore what people have been saying, and dismissing frustration as "lol lynch 4 no raison"?

Yes, I also criticize Susan, but I am very critical to the problem as well. Even other people have highlighted this over and over way before Skull and Cres:

 

It's really not some one singular issue to be honest. I mean, I have not made any specific player/character complaints on this forums. When I see someone doing something problematic that I see is quite widespread, I make a topic/complaint about the behaviour, not the person.

 

I think the main point of Sue's complaints is the same one I've had. It's what the characters represent. I've been sludging through the gray area as a captain for a while now. Why? Because I think it produces RP, one that people don't seem to like. Same for Ana, she's a cop, violent or not. She represents a police oriented station and actively seems to push it down on people, regardless if they disagree with Aurora Police station or not. It produces a lot of conflict and hate. The very fact that the theme of the server isn't established makes it a gray area, allowing Sue to argument it with ease.

 

I certainly don't. I'm normally okay with Sue, and she's done good work as a loredev from what I've seen.

But the point must be made, that everyone must abide by the same rules. It doesn't matter if you're a regular who's been here since before the server was created, or a new person who just arrived, or if you're staff or not. The same rules should apply, and it should be fair in that respect.

 

I do believe Susan shouldn't be singled out because this behaviour on server is not unique to her, but now the topic's come out I think that it just needs to be dealt with, over and done - as harsh as it may be, just make her an example. There's players on Aurora who are like Susan and need to see this situation unfold so they know this is unacceptable.

[Guest]

This thread is not about Sue.

This thread is about people ganging up on each other. And we've derailed to focus on Sue, who was not the subject of this thread. The subject was regarding the hostile attitude we get discussing issues, and not realizing what the common goal is.

Solving it. Without slamming each other's heads into desks. Preferably, with as few as heads slammed against desks as possible.

This is in-general.

No idea why you gotta be like that, I was agreeing with you anyway, lol.

[Cassie]

Well. Sue is not being ganged up on. She is not a victim, and the term "ganging up" does not apply to her. If you can define the difference between "ganged up on", and "problem player that many people have had problems with" then I'll gladly discuss that with you.

In general, on one hand, the community is telling us, "Well, to be honest, I can't see too many incidents with [player], so I can't say much." and then saying "Don't make incidents with [player]!" which is silly because it provides no solution to highlight problem-players.

To add, people are demonizing those who are raising concern, which is frankly a dodgy move. It does not seem like anyone cares about the feelings of the people who raised issues on the topics and that in itself is very worrying.

I'm not criticizing Sue because I'm an evil witch she looked at me funny. I couldn't care less if she didn't get a warning, a job ban, or anything like that - all I want is someone to say "Okay, Susan's actions/philosophy, as well any anyone who shares them is unacceptable. We'll have rule x to accomdate this.". Even if the focus was taken off Susan this would honestly be great.

That's the point I'm making here.

[Skull132]

The thing is. The rules in their current state effectively do protect her actions. There is absolutely nothing written against having an over zealous character (a dick, someone who expertly toes the line), within certain bounds. And there is nothing written about the mentality that a player should have, minus the very first rule.

And before we say something else. Remember back during January, December, when you'd see her regularly light up bald security with a laser? Yeah, that went against the rules and that was stopped. As far as my tracking is concerned, that has not happened since we took action against it. But, we don't necessarily broadcast when we take action like that. Unless there's an active complaint and the action to be taken is resolution.

But folks don't see it as right. Which is why we're going to have a little talk about'em.

[Guest]

10 pages of blood orgy.

 

People are getting upset for no reason and the staff aren't about to look like assholes and call them out for being and acting retarded.

 

Im sure that dismissing everything said during those 10 pages as "Retarded blood Hitler speak" qualifies as solving an issue.

If you truly, really believe that continuing on this subject will change anything at all, let alone change it for the better, please start addressing points people have made, which have so far been dismissed with catposting and exclamations of "We dont schprechen your filthy nazi language here!".

There's little room for speculation and interpretation on what people may have said when what they have said is literally a click away.

Further more, we're roughly 10 people flinging shit at each other , there's no room here for a large faceless majority you can claim is a lynch mob too loud and unreasonable to be dealt with.

[Jakers457]

It would appear some of you guys are doing the opposite to what the title implores you to do, let alone kept on topic. Perhaps taking a step back, and looking at the broader picture.

Yes, Sue's an ass and I'm an ass. 1138 is an ass aswell as Cassie. The fact we're all assholes to.some degree and we'll do things that'll piss other people off, but rather than bickering about who is wrong and who is right, while hijacking the thread all together. Let's take the.first step, calm down and take a step back. This is not a ground to argue on nor are the threads on the complaints board. Let the staff take the necessary actions, and if you're not happy with the outcome then just wait for the perp get a second strike. Now can we just drop the Sue argument? She's human too, and this seems unnecessary over a 2D space game built around stupid and crude humor.

[Guest]

It would appear some of you guys are doing the opposite to what the title implores you to do, let alone kept on topic. Perhaps taking a step back, and looking at the broader picture.

Yes, Sue's an ass and I'm an ass. 1138 is an ass aswell as Cassie. The fact we're all assholes to.some degree and we'll do things that'll piss other people off, but rather than bickering about who is wrong and who is right, while hijacking the thread all together. Let's take the.first step, calm down and take a step back. This is not a ground to argue on nor are the threads on the complaints board. Let the staff take the necessary actions, and if you're not happy with the outcome then just wait for the perp get a second strike. Now can we just drop the Sue argument? She's human too, and this seems unnecessary over a 2D space game built around stupid and crude humor.

 

Cassy might be an ass, but I've never seen her steamroll and powertrain other players. It ruins people's enjoyment of the game and many players do it, not just Sue. So, people find an oportunity to bring the issue to light, as Sue is honestly 1# in this aspect, but instead, they are hushed down by Francis and rest of players who do the same shit to a lesser extent. Instead, everyone here is labeled as an hitler and told to stop. Why do you think players are pissed?

Yes, this thread is not about Sue, it's about people telling us to stop complaining, while being pointlessly told to make complaints.

I honestly don't think anyone gives a shit what I think anymore, as I've put forward many points and no one seems to adress them until some other player repeats it, but I'll just add this; I'm not angry because of my complaints. People seem to tell me I was bullied, but I don't feel like a victim and think players who made complaints were just angry and confused. I don't blame them. Zonk, the player who posted the first complaint, and had it dismissed over 'server drama', probably has no fucking intention of playing here any longer. Another new potential member of the community lost. Sue gets out as a victim of bullying, because some people had the audacity to come out and state their opinion that Sue's gameplay was damaging.

I've made attempts to rectify my behavior as other players don't seem to be enjoying it. Sue, I don't think she will do that. Sue will continue to steamroll and powergame players until she gets bored, or staff enforce it on her. While I agree that people should stop screaming at each other, you should keep in mind that any mention of security has been a flamewar trigger lately, why do you think that is?

But I agree, we should stop pulling Sue into this. Maybe open up a new thread to let people discuss what constitutes as being a dick now that the problem is supposedly nailed down.

[Jakers457]

No, do not even open a thread on what constitutes a dick, this would benefit no one because it will result in people pointing at eachother once again.

What we need to do, is avoid threads like that and also cease turning any thread into an argument. There are some people who instantly go onto the hostile approach when it comes to any threads baring concerns into argument. I've found my own threads, hoping for a decent enough discussion get turned into a heated argument. I've been tempted to start a rogues gallery, posting the quote of the person who first took to being hostile on a thread.

This will be my last post in this god awful thread, but Frances I have full respect for the original intentions of this thread.

[Cassie]

You know what the best part of this forum is? I have to say this, sorry if it adds to my villain persona by being overly blunt, but how else can I put such a thing.

People who tell people not to be hostile while speaking in the same tone they used.

Or people who confrontationally tell others to not to be so confrontational.

Or those who tell people to be civil and think about others feelings, by doing anything but that.

Or people who talk about the "heated" thread by adding more heat.

Let's not forget those who talk about rational discussion and facilitating the points of both sides without actually reading the thread post contents.

Then claim moral superiority. Honestly, what is that exactly? Are you trying to prove these "suggestions" work you're breaking them yourselves? Because I'd be very curious if you do manage to bring in your points without resorting to the above, show us the "way" to speak. It's condescending and pompous and I honestly think that 80% of the time it's not even genuine.

Anyway, if there's one thing I agree with, this thread stopped being useful ages ago. Not because of anyone's "tone" but because no one is willing to cave in. Some high-horses might actually say it's the fault of both sides, but hey, that's how the view looks like from the peanut gallery.

[Guest]

What you're suggesting is that people actually be accountable for their actions and avoid being hypocrites.

As bloody sad as it is, people do not work like that. I will admit that I am dishonest on many occasions, but there's no point in belittling yourself or others on issues of semantics. It is just as unproductive as the opposite, except that apathy will end up being the real killer.

[Erik Tiber]

What you're suggesting is that people actually be accountable for their actions and avoid being hypocrites.

As bloody sad as it is, people do not work like that. I will admit that I am dishonest on many occasions, but there's no point in belittling yourself or others on issues of semantics. It is just as unproductive as the opposite, except that apathy will end up being the real killer.

It's not really the issue of semantics at all , more an issue of honesty or the lack thereof. If people keep yelling down others talking of civility, then it's obvious that what they really want, whether they admit it or not, is to have the 'complainers' quiet down and stop causing conflict period, regardless of the validity of a complaint. People, such as in Jaker's recent post and even yours, whp go and dismiss both sides as somehow equally wrong and claim the moral highground, are counterproductive to any discussion, even moreso than the 'hostility' which these posts decry.

[Guest]

If you see it that way, I can't fault you for it.

It's really easy to lawyer up and throw logical fallacy accusations at each other and pretty much put a cork on trying to solve the issue.

No idea why this thread is still up. It's honestly as pointless and I don't see any real practical solution that you guys are trying to suggest here.

As Tainavaa said, it's not something the staff nor everyone else can force a fix for.

[Frances]

I believe it can and will be discussed. Now that the issue has been brought to the attention of the staff, we simply need to wait to hear from Skull again.

As for the thread, the easiest way to show it's gone past its purpose is to not post on it and let it die slowly.