Staff Complaint

[Guest]

BYOND Key: Rataca6060
Staff BYOND Key: cyberspy (probbly)
Game ID: N/A
Reason for complaint:  Contesting discord temp ban: Seems over exerated, and maybe out of context.  I was partaking in a conversation(i didnt start), as soon as that ended my participation in the subject would have.  As well as what i was complaining about i had done before this issue.  (people not owning a monopoly over names is one thing i ahve complained about several times for example)

Additional remarks:
1:Dont agree with your ban appeal system, so saving time by putting it in here for general staff review. Feel free to move it if its more apt for a appeal but, my understanding of your appeal system was its more towards you and the staff that punished you than a independent review.  And i think you can drop punishments from a complaint anyway?

2:Acronyms can mean anything, and i will only trust the person using it as to what it means, as they are using it.  Which is what "it can mean literally anything" is directed at.

3: No "nuisance" was had or intetional. And it wasnt directed at any moderator action(or the banning one), as soon as the subject (that i didnt start) moved on my "nuisance" content would have stopped for it.    This is going off memory, of chat logs i cant access so its not going to be accurate by any means.  Dont expect any quotes

4: May be relivent, i made one comment about the ban reason, to which i was directed to make a staff complaint and i was going to ask a admin if i could (for third parties) before the conversation drifted to this.

5: I dont know what Gamut means in this context, but  if i understood correctly, i dont recall joking about it, just complaining about name monopoly not being a thing.  (see end of 3, for shoddy memory)

6: Not nessisarily relivent, and subjective, but i dont recall their profile being that offensive, i have seen more offensive comedy meant for humour, cant remmber what is exactly in it, just recall the colour in it making me nearly vomit.  He got banned explitly for the pronoun "hi/ler" or something like that thing.  thats as far as the ban reason i saw lead me to belive.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Rataca
Struck through 6 for irrelivence

[WickedCybs]

1 hour ago, Rataca said:

2:Acronyms can mean anything, and i will only trust the person using it as to what it means, as they are using it.  Which is what "it can mean literally anything" is directed at.

This is a nonsense statement and it speaks more to your lack of tact in this situation.

1 hour ago, Rataca said:

3: No "nuisance" was had or intetional. And it wasnt directed at any moderator action(or the banning one), as soon as the subject (that i didnt start) moved on my "nuisance" content would have stopped for it.    This is going off memory, of chat logs i cant access so its not going to be accurate by any means.  Dont expect any quotes

Everything you posted after that ban was related to it and it's very strange you're choosing to play devils advocate on these very specific situations such as the Nazi thing now and our apparent "issue" with not allowing names like Adolf Hitler and the like.

Here's the beginning where you initially came in.

Spoiler

 

1 hour ago, Rataca said:

5: I dont know what Gamut means in this context, but  if i understood correctly, i dont recall joking about it, just complaining about name monopoly not being a thing.  (see end of 3, for shoddy memory)

The Discord profile.

1 hour ago, Rataca said:

6: Not nessisarily relivent, and subjective, but i dont recall their profile being that offensive, i have seen more offensive comedy meant for humour, cant remmber what is exactly in it, just recall the colour in it making me nearly vomit.  He got banned explitly for the pronoun "hi/ler" or something like that thing.  thats as far as the ban reason i saw lead me to belive.

If you aren't sure on the specifics, you should refrain from saying things until you're absolutely sure about it. I don't believe that's what happened here though. To me you saw what happened and figured it wasn't a big deal, so you took it upon yourself to feign outrage regarding someone who is either offensively ignorant at best or a neo-Nazi at worst. Both of these are bad and leads to the same result, a removal from the community because that won't be abided here.

This was the Discord profile.

Spoiler

This is what you messaged someone after you were banned.

Spoiler

The Discord ban is now indefinite and also applies to the game. If you grow out of this "humor" then do feel free to appeal in six months. You're no longer welcome in this community until then.

Edited June 23, 2023 by WickedCybs

[Alberyk]

I will handle this complaint.

[Guest]

Had a addendum i was going to make before i had to leave so decided to keep it, this is without reading or taking into account the replies i have gotten:

I dont recall doing some of the accused behaviour, i did "complain" about the ban reason being worded quite poorly (previous behaviour of mine has that as something i do), that was dropped when i was told i could report it, and see above for that.    Somone asked what was in their bio i replied with the pronoun thing, then somone else asked about the acronym, which i replied, asked them as they can mean literally anything. 

I dont recall joking about anything, other than the fact i just do neutral/not serious typing. Or even starting or even annoying the mod (the lancer).  I do think the reason is kind of ever exergarated for what i actually put.

I will happily die on the hill to support my statement "acrynyms can mean anything" as they can, only the user/maker of a acrynym can tell you what it means as they are the writers of it, have: ACWPPOMI as a example.    You can dispute as much as you want, you dont have a monpoly (or the english langauge)over what a sequence of letters to be short form for something means.   There are only 26 letters, there is going to be some repition.

Following this, i will reply with what has been written here(forum post), and actually read it.
 

Edited June 23, 2023 by Rataca

[Guest]

[post removed, double pooted]

Edited June 23, 2023 by Rataca
double post

[Guest]

7 hours ago, WickedCybs said:

The Discord ban is now indefinite and also applies to the game. If you grow out of this "humor" then do feel free to appeal in six months. You're no longer welcome in this community until then.

To get this clear, i got elevated to a full perma  community ban by you for:
Not finding the name Adolf Hitler offensive
Sending a not really offensive monty python skit to perhaps the wrong person, as part of a joke and mocking what i percive as a bullshit ban immediately after reciving it. (so emotionally charged)
Finding gobbidlegook, gobbidlygook

And not anything i wrote, like "the nazis are right"?   (as a example of something that would get you warned or banned)

As well as throwing in a potiental chracter attack and definately poising the well with the nazi comment?  Which i dont appreciate in the slightest and can you not?


The one sort of thing i have in reply is:
My complaint towards the third party ban is soley on the somewhat accusatory ban reason the lancer gave, and that ENDED AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED after he told me staff complain it, i sent  3-4 messages and a a emoji at best in reply to that.

My only other emotional investment is my current ban, which i feel isnt apt.  Its been oversold if i even did anything i was being accused of, as well as it being somehwat accuistory. (the potetionally dishonest comment)   I recall making no joke about hitler, the only joke i recall was one sent to a user in reply to their joke, and i cant remmeber what i or they wrote.
I only wrote that the acrynym can mean "literally anything" as no one owns the english langauge or has a monopoly on it, so directed users to ask the banned one what it meant instead of listening to the dictations of others.  (english is the most spoken langauge currently)

Thats about all i got, hopefully it got the highnotes to your reply.

Addendum since the forums hate me:  I struck through no 6, as now i have returned, i would have deleted it if i had time when making this and wasnt rushed, as well as it mainly being a after event comment, so it wouldnt be information the banning mod had at the time, and shouldnt be used to influence or defend their actions.    I will answer commentary on it if required with this understadning. 

Although a short on it, its gobbildygook to me  now, and i didnt even see the german when i first looked at it, and i dont know german.   But i made no comment ON the german, to my memoery.   But i write this with the above understanding this is a AFTER EVENT COMMENT mainly.

Edit:  I am also kind of confused as to what i am being accused of now, to actually defend aainst it, if somone can give me a itemilised list in order would be nice, as well as the rules it actually breaks.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Rataca
Clerical and eleboration

[Guest]

Ok, i asked  Alberky if i can re write my defence, and they said yes.  So hopefully this would be more concise to what i am trying to convey than the blob:

This is soley for the discord ban, and content at the time of writing in the discord:

My overall stance: I feel that, if i did anything wrong it wasnt ban worthy and the reason given is overhyped and overselling what i actually did. (if anything)

Itemised defence for ban points:

1: I am not being dishonest, so i am going with "being a nuisance over a ban".  I was not a nuisance as far as i can tell (or to a reasonably third party viewing)over the ban The Lancer gave, i left one comment(string, not literally one), and my participation with him ended after my immediate reply when he said to staff complain it, my content after as far as I SEE is seperateate, and i saw it as such.  if there was a communication issue there, its a what ever but i 100% saw that conversation and the following as two seperate entitites.   The conversation about the ban was at best a paragraph long.   Edit: It specfically ended 1 or two lines below the dog emoji after he said to staff report it.  Again as far as i can see, and from memory.

2: I dont belive i was arguing semantics about anything there, all i wrote was why the person got banned(after somone asked), and for a user to ask the banned user what their acrynym meant (after they asked) on the grounds that "acrynyms can mean literally anything" specfically acrynyms, nothing else. I also didnt start this tangent, other users did when they asked why they got banned etc.   I would have not made a single comment if they hadnt  literally asked why they got banned, and some of them couldnt see the bio.   Outside of my intiial annoyance at the lancers ban reason, but hes not who i am complaining about or what i am complaining about.

3:  Dont know what a Gamut is still,but i dont recall actually joking about hitler or anything written in the bio, i think i conveyed a joke with somone about the bio, but i cant remmeber what they wrote or what i wrote, and i think they joked about it first.

Kind of after events/other:
4: About the offence on the bio, working from a after looking at it perspective, so not at time of writing, the only Idable bannable thing i can see is the Adolf Hitler joke, the german wasnt Ided until looking at it in revision now, and is gobbildygook to me and the acrynym is gobyldygook i differed people to ask the banned user what it meant.  For the stated reason earlier, it can mean literally anything.
4a:  I dont feel the profile was "incredibly offensive", and thats just a buzzword shoved in to oversell the ban if you like, and make it look worse than it actually is, but offence is a subjective thing.  The only thing i could ID straight away was the Hitler joke, and i recall The Lancer just mainly using that for the ban reason, nothing else in the bio. (i think thats in his ban reason, dont quote me though)  Thats fairly weak for "incredibly offensive" its just a persons name. 

Hopefully that has clarified my posiiton, and i will be happy to recive new replies based on this etc in the future.   I will come back and fix any clerical mistake tommorow.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Rataca
Clerical adjustment

[Alberyk]

On 23/06/2023 at 07:57, Rataca said:

2:Acronyms can mean anything, and i will only trust the person using it as to what it means, as they are using it.  Which is what "it can mean literally anything" is directed at.

Sorry, but that is not how it works. Let us consider that this was the profile that started it all:

If you are arguing that these acronyms can mean anything when they are on the side of a nazi slogan, you are just arguing in bad faith.

On 23/06/2023 at 18:00, Rataca said:

4a:  I dont feel the profile was "incredibly offensive", and thats just a buzzword shoved in to oversell the ban if you like, and make it look worse than it actually is, but offence is a subjective thing.  The only thing i could ID straight away was the Hitler joke, and i recall The Lancer just mainly using that for the ban reason, nothing else in the bio. (i think thats in his ban reason, dont quote me though)  Thats fairly weak for "incredibly offensive" its just a persons name. 

Taking this in consideration, I think you deserve the ban more than ever.

I will consider this complaint solved.

[Guest]

Dragging in my server ban after checking if i can:


Breaking this down like i did the discord one:

General comment:  Basically a rehashed version of the discord ban, so most of the commentary i made stands about it being overhyped and sold etc, although this one seems more emotionally charged for a reason explained in specfics.     A couple of diffrent accusations are had here though.

Specfic comments: 
1:  I didnt write i was going to join as Adolf Hitler in the joke message, as the screenshots above* show.  I wrote "will i get banned if i join as Adolf Hilter" then posted the video i was refrencing for the joke.   This leads me to belive it is emotionally charged as the staff memeber failed to see the diffrence between Hitler and Hilter.  So did not care enough to double check the wording.  There is 3 usages of Hilter, and a clear mention that its Hilter, as well as if the video was played and looked up you will find out its "Hilter"
1a:  You can maybe make a justified assumption that i could intend do if i write "will i get baned if...", but its not a adimtance or statement saying "i will do X".  Given i didnt even join until after being informed of the ban to check the ban reason that day, id say evidence is in my favour that i wasnt going to join and do it.   I think i have also used "will i get banned if.." jokes in your server before?

2: My discord ban doesnt mention me defending said user as a reason for the ban, so this is a new accusation and a failed quote.
2a: Can i even be banned for "defending a user"?   The only "defence", which the quoted ban reason takes out of context is me laying one complaint to The Lancer about his ban reason, and i was directed to make a staff complaint by the staff in question about it.  Which leads me to assume (without getting chance to check with higher staff, which i planned to do if i wasnt bant) that the "defence" was allowed. (and i was considering making a complaint after consulting with a min)

2b:I am being falsely attrubuted to defending the users profile as well, and i dont recall anything i wrote haveing that as a reasonable assumption to what i was doing



The rest seems to be addressed for my complaint at the discord ban.

*Screenshots cant really be used as evidence, as they can be easily doctored, hence why discord doesnt allow them as evidence.  Not deny or accusing, just pointing out your norm of posting screenshots as evidence is flawed.   It can be doctored via photoshop or changing the HTML code as its basically just a website.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Alberyk said:

f you are arguing that these acronyms can mean anything when they are on the side of a nazi slogan, you are just arguing in bad faith.

Like i wrote anything under the Pet lover is gobbildygook to me.  And two, i didnt deny anything, i just wrote to "direct questions towards the banned user" for previously stated reasons.   i dont think anything i have done has taken away the trust in my word.


 

 

13 minutes ago, Alberyk said:

Taking this in consideration, I think you deserve the ban more than ever.

I will consider this complaint solved.

Seems a bit rash given "not finding something offensive" isnt against your rules, and its a subjective matter. (feel free to quote a rule)  And i also only have one warn on your discord and no warns on your server. If i actually wrote something like " Hitler did nothing wrong" or the "jews deserve to die" id get your point, but i didnt.   And its not like i subjected your server to it *either in the discord or in the game. 

edit:* Semi offensive/can be construded as offensive comedy sketches etc, is what i mean by "it" and well as the offending articles here.  

Edited June 26, 2023 by Rataca
eleboration

[Alberyk]

Here you are claiming that what staff did, banning someone for having a bunch of nazi stuff in their profile, was easily disproven allegation of affiliation.

Spoiler

Here you are making fun of staff somehow enforcing the rules arbitrarily in the same conversation.

[Alberyk]

29 minutes ago, Rataca said:

Seems a bit rash given "not finding something offensive" isnt against your rules, and its a subjective matter. (feel free to quote a rule)  And i also only have one warn on your discord and no warns on your server. If i actually wrote something like " Hitler did nothing wrong" or the "jews deserve to die" id get your point, but i didnt.   And its not like i subjected your server to it *either in the discord or in the game. 

Here is the rule:

About being banned on the server:

Now, you have a weird history of really trying to push the boundaries by having your character be closely named after hitler:

30 minutes ago, Rataca said:

Like i wrote anything under the Pet lover is gobbildygook to me.  And two, i didnt deny anything, i just wrote to "direct questions towards the banned user" for previously stated reasons.   i dont think anything i have done has taken away the trust in my word.

I guess this will be a learning experience for you. Maybe you should have searched it instead of accusing people or rushing in defense of someone because you wanted to discuss a technicality or just poke people for fun.

[Guest]

Ping if you are done with replies, will bulk reply after the fact.

[Guest]

50 minutes ago, Alberyk said:

Here you are claiming that what staff did, banning someone for having a bunch of nazi stuff in their profile, was easily disproven allegation of affiliation.

Not going to go into much detail, or the same level as if this was me staff complaining  the lancer as its a secondary point here: But most allegations of affilation can be easily disproven espeically when you have had minimal interaction with the user.(i think he was new?)  And my complaint is why didnt he just put "rule 5: has something offensive in bio"  (which anyone who clicks on his name can still see)  Instead of this accusation?

As far as the german goes, cant comment without third party tranlation(not a jab, just not proper), its gobbildygook to me, can only comment on waht you got back as the search result, which appears to be a portrait of Adolf Hitler  of Germany, which as far as my thinking goes, doesnt make you a  nazi anymore than a portrait of George Washinton makes you a slaver. 

Posting shit that can be considered offensive doesnt then mean you agree with it, trolling is a thing.
 

1 hour ago, Alberyk said:

Here you are making fun of staff somehow enforcing the rules arbitrarily in the same conversation.

Dont recall too good on the first and cant check when i put it, but i belive it was before my ban and the lancers ban?  My comment was directed at some servers pulling that shit, and it generally annoying me, fueled by a couple of "ehh" things i saw your staff do.

Did you mean to keep screenshot 2?  As thats not me making fun of the ban(or complaining about it being arbitary, although you may have the "ban anytime claus in rules"), its a legitmate complaint, and i have given another staff memeber  a formal complaint about it when done to me.  Ban reasons shouldnt be accustory, they should have what rule you broke, and a breif on how.  This again isnt a staff complaint on the lancer or his ban request but it should have gone like:  "rule 5: No offensive content, your bio has some offensive content" (which you can still see if you click on his name).    Not this accusitory nonsense.
 

 

1 hour ago, Alberyk said:

Here is the rule:

Did i post anything to trigger rule 5 in the discord to get banned for rule 5 though?  i dont recall posting anything that can be reasonably construded as causing offence.  Dont recall a single "hitler didnt do anything wrong" etc.  Or even " the acrynym doesnt mean this".  Can you honestly and faithfully construde "ask the banned user what the acrynym means as it can mean anything" as offensive?  When i didnt even quote it?   

 

1 hour ago, Alberyk said:

Now, you have a weird history of really trying to push the boundaries by having your character be closely named after hitler:

Not much of a history:

Screenshot 1, is me making a emotionally fueled joke as i admitted after my ban, citing the the monty python Adolf HIL TER (not HIT LER) sketch.  which i admit was emotionally fuled. Which was in DM's.

Screenshot 2: I feel very strongly about this point at the moment and am struggling to articulate well, but best go:  the comment was before the ban conversation, and is used as proof i have moaned about the RULE before.   My complaints are that the "No famous names rule" makes no sense, this is it, every SS13 server has this rule (or at least most), and thinking about it it makes little sense for most names. You dont own a monopoly to your name, and most peoples names pre date them by generations/named after somone else.   the name i used was incidental and did predate the ban by nearly a month so cant be used as evidence of it.  You can replace it with any name, aside from closer to stage anmes which i agree should be banned. (although nicks are fairly common)  I also feel sorry for anyone who has to put up with the societal retardation because they share a name.

Beyond this, did it break any rules?    If you claim rule 5 whats offensive about it? the name isnt (adolfs definiton is on the bottom of my post and its not offensive)  And then if it did why was i not warned then?

Commentary: neither of these screenshots prove a history of "trying to push the boundaries by having a chracter closely named after Hitler".  i have one New Gibsonite named Adolf Belgum, which is a Norwegain themed name as the rules dicated they have to be (scandi, norway is scandi), i went to a name list for both:

Where i got Belgum:https://www.familyeducation.com/baby-names/name-meaning/belgum

Must have used Wiki for Adolf as i cant find any baby name lists (in history), but i liked its meaning:https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Norwegian_given_names#A
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf

I have not been Bwoinked, warned or noted for name offences in the server. And i dont have a chracter named Adolf Hitler.  Or any other Chracter named Adolf. 

Two screenshots one after a ban, is hardly evidence of a "history" and one isnt even a statement or can even be argued as one about breaking the rules, nor breaks a rule in its self.  (feel free to post which one it can)
 

[Arrow768]

I am going to chime in here as Host of this server.

There is no point in continuing this staff complaint.
I completely agree with and support the decisions of all the involved staff members to ban you and silent.mouse.

If you decide to involve yourself in a situation you should inform yourself what the things, they have on their profile (that they were banned for) actually mean, before claiming that "these German words are all gobbledygoop to me".
If you google "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer!" together with "meaning", one of the first results is from the "United States Holocaust Memorial Museum".
Let me quote the explanation from there:

Quote

Color poster of an iconic painting of Adolf Hitler printed in Germany during the Third Reich, 1933-1945.
The original painting was created by Heinrich Knirr in 1935-1936, and was based on a photograph taken by Heinrich Hoffman in 1935.
Hitler approved the image and it became popular as it was widely used on Nazi propaganda pieces.

The slogan Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer (One People, One Country, One Leader) was one of the central slogans used by Hitler and the Nazi Party.
Nazi propaganda portrayed their leader (Fuhrer) as the living embodiment of the German nation and people.
This slogan reinforced the cult of Hitler and the sense of destiny that the Party claimed made him the savior of Germany and father of the German people.

After you defended a person with the central slogan used by the Nazi Party on their profile you proceeded to ask if you could play as "Adolf Hitler".

I dont really care if you learn something from that or not, but the result is that you are no longer welcome here.
We do not need or want people in our community who defend/support the Holocaust.
(Even if we ignore the fact that doing so can get you between 1-10 years in prison if you live in Austria; Verbotsgesetz $3h)

[Arrow768]

Addendum:

The ban reason has been updated from:

Quote

You were planning to join as "Adolf Hitler" after we just temporarily banned you from the discord for what was essentially a defense of someone with an incredibly offensive discord profile that had nazi in-jokes among other things. Given you have chosen to double down, you're no longer welcome in this community until you grow up.

to the following to ensure it aligns with the provided Screenshots (H I L T E R)

Quote

You inquired if you would get banned if you joined as "Adolf Hilter" after we just temporarily banned you from the discord for what was essentially a defense of someone with an incredibly offensive discord profile that had nazi in-jokes among other things. Given you have chosen to double down, you are no longer welcome in this community.