Discord Player Complaint - porbo

[Dreamix]

BYOND Key: my discord username: "dreamykass"
Game ID: N/A
Player Byond Key/Character name: their discord username: "porbo"
 

Staff involved:
A few days ago I have messaged Yonnimer with some sus messages of porbo, but other than that, staff and moderation commonly engage with porbo in the main discord. Like yesterday, Alberyk, and many others. So, staff should be familiar with porbo.
 

 

Reason for complaint:

Firstly. I've seen on many occasions porbo posting some sus or insane or borderline rule-breaking stuff. This is stuff that does not immediately deserve a ban, no, but it's hella weird, and I do not think it would be particularly welcoming for any new players to see when joining the server.
They have already been striken for this in the past, search "mentions:porbo strike" in the main discord.
See spoiler for some screenshots - I only have these, cause I'm not online all the time, I've only started saving these a few days ago, and porbo is active almost literally every single day, so I'd rather not be log scraping the 89 pages of their messages in the past month alone.

Spoiler

 

Secondly. I have seen multiple conversations like these in the past, where porbo is wasting everyone's time, by bad-faith arguing, while at the same time admitting they do not even play the server, and showcasing complete lack of understanding how Aurora (community, lore, etc) looks like in the current day.
On multiple occasions I have seen the general chat be tied up in these porbo conversations for hours, with people coming and going as they engage and try to defend against porbo's baseless accusations about the state of Aurora.
Commonly porbo also shows this kind of "concern" for Aurora, where they claim they wish Aurora well. I do not believe it is genuine at all, and it is concern trolling.
See spoiler for assorted screenshots from the conversation from yesterday. The problem is the whole conversation and how porbo engages with the discord server, and not the specific messages, and like I can't screenshot the whole conversation, can I? Here's link to somewhere in the middle of it yesterday: https://discord.com/channels/157516682288562176/157531783779319808/1123400115877576735

Spoiler

 

 

Thirdly. The reason for this complaint, is I believe porbo has a negative impact on the server and the community. Sure, I could just ignore or block them, but I still do not want to see *other* people wasting their time like that.
Including new people who have just joined the server or whatever, and who get to see porbo going on a massive rant about how Aurora is awful and Aurora players are bad.
Honestly, I genuinely believe, porbo is some elaborate scheme to troll us, waste everyone's time, shitpost on massive scale. It is genuinely baffling to me how they have not been banned yet, and how even admins engage in these "conversations" with porbo.

 

Did you attempt to adminhelp the issue at the time?: N/A
Approximate Date/Time: See screenshots above, but other than that, it's an ongoing situation, and not just a one-off incident.

 

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by Dreamix

[The Rebelion]

Hi. Porbo here.

I take complaints regarding my conduct seriously when they're made in good faith - and you aren't the first to complain! So I'll go completely mask-off and engage with this earnestly, addressing your concerns point-by-point, without any pretense or humor.

My sense of humor is not for everyone and, on occasion, toes the line of what's tactful and appropriate for Aurora. Some of the jokes posted in your screenshot compilation have gotten me talked to by members of staff and I've since toned it down (all the ones you posted are recent so this might take time to become noticeable). I'm aware that saying "other people do it too" is a lousy excuse but I'll point out that every joke you've screenshotted had been part of a discussion that had multiple participants, so I wasn't deliberately trying to gross someone out as much as I was trying to make them laugh. Is it "particularly welcoming for any new players to see when joining the server"? I don't know but it's never been brought up to me, even when staff tell me to chill out.

To your second point, I assume that when you say "bad-faith arguing", you mean that I'm arguing beliefs that I do not sincerely hold. But every belief I've argued regarding the state of the server has been sincere - which is why they don't really change. My behaviour does not conflict with my beliefs: my experience of Aurora became less enjoyable once the Horizon was launched and I gave it a try. This is around the time that I stopped playing with any degree of regularity. This forum post isn't the place to litigate how complete my understanding of Aurora is, I'll just point to the fact that even in our most recent "discussion" in general chat, there were people who (at least to me) seemed to hold similar beliefs about the level of roleplay on the server.

I'll also mention that picking out a collection of my quotes from the discussion without showcasing the stunning (and in my opinion, rule-breaking) level of vitriol I've received in response feels like an act of journalistic malpractice. I don't think it was intentional - as you said, you can't screenshot the whole conversation. Nor can you spare the time to scroll up past today's discussion to look at my other posts...

...which is very shaky ground to declare I'm concern trolling from. You've never engaged in a conversation with me (to my knowledge), do not know which characters I've had on the server, have not seen the myriad of other topics I discuss in general chat, and your only interaction with me (again, as far as my memory serves me) is to drop in whenever me and the chat are in a heated discussion over Aurora to call my opinions 'bait' and to discourage users from interacting with me. To be blunt, your proclivity for theorycrafting about my intent and beliefs without knowing me appears a bit hypocritical with how much issue you take with me theorycrafting about something I supposedly know nothing about.

As for your third point, I don't have much to offer since I can't be the arbiter of that. I think I'm a positive impact on the community and the few people who take serious issue with my opinions seem content having me blocked or ignored. I review character ideas, lore posts, and am sometimes DMd about my opinion regarding nifty lil' things like sprites or character art. Characters I've written are namedropped four years after I've killed them. My policy regarding all of these is confidentiality but staff are likely aware (at least in part) of what I'm talking about. I don't think Aurora is "awful" and I think my jokes about its players are exaggerated enough for the humor to be unmistakable.

[Roostercat]

Hi. I'll be handling this complaint. It will take some time for me to mull all this over as well as read discord logs, so don't expect a verdict for a few days. In the meanwhile, I ask to please keep all discussion here civil and ONLY POST IF YOU ARE INVOLVED. These kinds of complaints usually have issues with the last bit. 

[Dreamix]

On 28/06/2023 at 11:24, The Rebelion said:

As for your third point, I don't have much to offer since I can't be the arbiter of that. I think I'm a positive impact on the community and the few people who take serious issue with my opinions seem content having me blocked or ignored. I review character ideas, lore posts, and am sometimes DMd about my opinion regarding nifty lil' things like sprites or character art. Characters I've written are namedropped four years after I've killed them. My policy regarding all of these is confidentiality but staff are likely aware (at least in part) of what I'm talking about. I don't think Aurora is "awful" and I think my jokes about its players are exaggerated enough for the humor to be unmistakable.

I doubt these people actually exist and approach you with these things - and even if they do, that is irrelevant, as it is your private space, and not the actual community.

Maybe you have used to be an active and positively impactful member of the community in the past, but in the public space in the current days, I only see you either: posting memes, engaging in short talks that are not related to SS13 or Aurora in the slightest (like cats or whatever), or engaging in these heated discussions that are the main point of this complaint.

You can say a thousand times that your views are sincere, and you want Aurora to be better, and mention how many people you help in DMs. But if you yourself admit you do not actually play the game and only "experience" it through streams and hearsay, that is all irrelevant. As someone else in that discussion have said, "investment in the community is evidence of good intent". There is zero investment, so I do not think your "critique" of Aurora is provided in good intent.

[Sycmos]

I participated in the argument that took place on the 27th where Porbo was accused of concern trolling and arguing in bad faith with other community members, most notably Alberyk. This is not the first time that I have seen Alberyk deal with Porbo's behavior on Discord, nor is it the first time I've witnessed Porbo make similar generalizations about the server. The amount of patience that Alberyk has displayed in dealing with this repeat behavior is commendable, not only as an admin but also as a major contributor to our community's lore. Given that Porbo's most recent misstep was rather derisive of how players chooses to participate in the community I feel it's particularly offensive to those who have dedicated their time and energy to writing content that makes our server's setting feel engaging, and Alberyk's contributions are prevalent enough that if I were in their place I would be much more visibly irritated than they display.

I feel that it speaks volumes to their lack of good intent that Porbo did not have a forum account until this year, and has a total of three posts - their most recent being their above refutal of Dreamix's complaint:



If the above account was made due to a loss of a previous forum account, which could have been easily remedied by contacting Arrow, the reality that Porbo posted less than five times since February does not tell me much about their supposed vested interest in the community as of late. Someone who has a tenured stay and presence in the community like Porbo claims they do would have likely visited the forum at least more than a handful of times and at least participated in a discussion at least once or twice in the last several months. The forum is where a lot of members of the community go to make their voice heard outside of the clutter of Discord, where they feel they can better elaborate on their opinions and reactions to changes in the community and the game. Seeing new members contribute to discussion is a healthy sign that new players are finding adequate investment in the community, and I have seen a number of new people participate in the last couple of months. It does not require anything beyond a forum account, and a willingness to make your voice heard.

I have yet to see Porbo do this even once on the forums, and their above refutal is the first time I've seen them post on the forum period. That does not tell me anything about their interest in the community beyond talking on Discord, which is a notoriously bad place to keep track of discussions. Staff repeatedly espouse the need to share opinions and other community matters on the forum where they can be monitored and discussed in a space safe for long-form conversations, and despite this widely-accepted notion that the forum is the place to make your voice heard Porbo shows virtually zero presence on it whatsoever.

So what about in game? Forum participation is not required, and shouldn't be - simply enjoying the game as it is can be enough for some players. A player can have a very good feeling for how the community feels by playing regularly if they don't participate in forum discussion, as forum discussion and changes that follow them directly influence in-game activity. The game is, after all, the locus of the community's efforts. It is the medium which our entire project is conveyed.

Porbo doesn't do this either.



Porbo clearly admits that they haven't played in half of a year, which could potentially be longer given that they're not even sure how long it's been. I am the first to understand that playing daily or even weekly with real life responsibilities can be difficult - I am a working adult homeowner with a multitude of responsibilities, and a number of other hobbies outside of Aurora that also take up my time. However I cannot help but question Porbo's intent when they have not only not played in half of a year or more, but they base their opinions on watching others play. It feels wholly disingenuous on their part to make such disparaging comments about how our community behaves as a roleplay-oriented server when they have not had a recent experience in-game that ties them personally to the setting, other characters or their own. Our server changes by the season, and I'm sure that everyone feels it too - it is a living entity, constantly evolving with the passing of each generation of roleplayers and updates and changes to our map, lore and mechanics. Our server does not remotely resemble what it did a year ago, and it would be ridiculous to think that it resembles anything that it did six months ago. Cold Dawn, the most recent Tajara arc, concluded at the end of February. It was a tumultuous moment for many characters and by extension many players, and informed a number of developments for how the Horizon behaves abroad. If Porbo did not play any less than half of a year ago, they would have missed this event completely and anything surrounding it.

How am I supposed to feel anything other than irritation at Porbo's remarks when they neither participate in forum discussion nor make a vested effort in actually participating in-game, and instead base their opinions through being a totally detached spectator that only interacts with the community on Discord?



Am I supposed to feel that someone who likened our experiences to something so childish that it feels offensive has good intentions?



Seriously?

[The Rebelion]

My issue with the above two posts is that they're predicated on a very personal and flexible definition of 'community'. No, I don't post on the forums (though I read them multiple times a day). My experience of the game server is filtered through the membrane of discord streams. This is true of others whose involvement and participation in the community I've never seen be challenged, let alone posted about in the complaints forum. My disappointment with Aurora's direction seems to be the motivation behind the taxonomy of "the community" and "the community on Discord" as being separate entities.

If they are separate entities, that's a claim that'd be very difficult to prove considering the immense overlap of players. If they aren't separate entities, this line of argument about my lack of participation just disintegrates. Dreamix already pointed out my near-daily participation in the maincord. You'd be hard-pressed to find a regular member of the community who is not at least tangentially aware of me. I'm not subscribing to the argument that community participation = good will, I'm just pointing out that it wouldn't work even if it were true, as I participate in the community constantly.

The "investment in the community is evidence of good intent" line of reasoning is plainly absurd to me. I already detailed how I feel I invest into the community in my previous post but I didn't do so to present evidence of good intent (it's there to demonstrate positive impact) because the time/effort you put into Aurora does not have a proportional relationship with your benefit to it. Just ask anyone sinking multiple days and hundreds of dollars trying to ban evade because of their affinity for Aurora, its community, and its niche of roleplay level.

I do have a question to both of you and I mean this earnestly, without malice: at what point do I qualify as a community member to you? I've played one round six months ago, found that all of the things I disliked were still there, and haven't logged on since. Nothing I've seen or heard thus far has convinced me that I'd have a better experience if I were to try again - but let's say I had! So how long would it take? Two rounds? Ten rounds? Three days? A week? A month? A year? Will your irritation with me likening Aurora's RP style to a dollhouse be any less pronounced if it was backed up by a year of recent gameplay? Or do you believe sufficient first-hand experience will improve my opinion of the server? If there is no doubt in your heart that I'm not a member of the community, I am curious as to what exact amount of forum/server participation would qualify me as one.

Edited July 2, 2023 by The Rebelion

[Sycmos]

20 hours ago, The Rebelion said:

I do have a question to both of you and I mean this earnestly, without malice: at what point do I qualify as a community member to you? I've played one round six months ago, found that all of the things I disliked were still there, and haven't logged on since. Nothing I've seen or heard thus far has convinced me that I'd have a better experience if I were to try again

This is all that I needed to read to ascertain your intent.

You have no intention of participating as a player anymore, you have no intention of contributing to discussion on the forums, and judging by your personal views of Aurora you have no intention to do either in the future - but it seems you do intend to continue your brand of inflammatory rhetoric where everyone can read it on Discord, to make derisive comments about the state of the server without having an iota of a recent experience, to make offensive comparisons as someone who more or less amounts to being a backseat player. I cannot see any potential for positive or meaningful impact from you if you solely intend to inhabit the social/community space of players to initiate arguments like this without any personal investment.

Aurora is not without its issues, and I have been vocal about many of them in the past, but I choose daily to participate to hopefully make a positive effect because this server and community are still mine and I have personal investment in its success. Anyone who plays and engages with other players in the spirit of the server, participates in discussion on the forums, submits pull requests, joins one of the myriad staff teams, or even creates Aurora-related art wishes to effect the server in some way that's meaningful to them personally. Whether or not this comes to any negative or positive effect is irrelevant - the investment is still there. Players do this every day.

You show no intention to do anything of that, and only show interest in inhabiting a community space for a game that you admit to not even playing or liking, and as it seems to some negative effect with the way you've conducted yourself. Why should anyone take you seriously under these circumstances? Why should anyone have to suffer your attitude over something you have no intention to invest in?

[The Rebelion]

Though the above reply narrowly avoids addressing or answering the only question I've asked, I've no issue with answering the two you have for me.

 

4 hours ago, Sycmos said:

Why should anyone take you seriously under these circumstances? Why should anyone have to suffer your attitude over something you have no intention to invest in?

I've never demanded to be taken seriously nor had any expectation that I would be, given how laced with humor most of my communication on Discord is. More than once I've presented the disclaimer that my ideal Aurora 'vibe' would be fundamentally incompatible with its current playerbase. Crucially, I voiced both this disclaimer and my opinions even as I was playing somewhat regularly in 2019. So clearly, despite holding a lot of the same grievances, I was still interested enough to play on a daily basis - and still could, making this:

 

4 hours ago, Sycmos said:

You have no intention of participating as a player anymore

...a confident, even italicized assertion about something you've no interaction or familiarity with, a behaviour you admonish me for. I could play Aurora and see myself having fun with it but I don't think it'd make a change in how you perceive me or my arguments, which is what the question in the previous post alluded to. If I'm wrong, feel free to tell me what amount of playtime would have you accept my opinions about the server as valid.

As for your second question: no one is forced to 'suffer' my attitude. The vast majority of players I talk to seem to summarize my attitude as 'funny' or, at worst, 'weird'. A handful of people seem to hold a lower opinion of me and subsequently block me to not see me or my posts, yourself included, thus ending their 'suffering'. As is the nature of QC complaints, this is largely vibes-based. The three things I'm accused of are saying weird things that are explicitly mentioned as not breaking any rules (guilty as charged), me arguing in bad-faith (a vibes-based claim seemingly predicated on Dreemix thinking I'm a psyop? ["porbo is some elaborate scheme to troll us, waste everyone's time, shitpost on massive scale"]), and the belief that I'm a bad impact on the community. I don't think I am and I haven't heard the myriad of people I speak to on the server express this opinion either. If you feel as though me playing on the server will transform my impact into a positive one then I'm waiting with bated breath to hear where that playtime threshold lies.

Edited June 30, 2023 by The Rebelion

[Roostercat]

From how I can see it, @The Rebelion has very little investment in playing the game, as stated by Sycmos and Dreamix, and has repeatedly talked ill of either the players or the state of the game while having very little experience actually playing it. That combined with the phrasing of their arguments is a rulebreak of the Don't be a Dick rule, as its basically just trashtalking with very little basis. 

 

On 30/06/2023 at 17:41, The Rebelion said:

 

I've never demanded to be taken seriously nor had any expectation that I would be, given how laced with humor most of my communication on Discord is. More than once I've presented the disclaimer that my ideal Aurora 'vibe' would be fundamentally incompatible with its current playerbase. Crucially, I voiced both this disclaimer and my opinions even as I was playing somewhat regularly in 2019. So clearly, despite holding a lot of the same grievances, I was still interested enough to play on a daily basis - and still could, making this:

 

 

Humor is subjective, and I don't see this disclaimer appear very often in logs. 

 

On 30/06/2023 at 17:41, The Rebelion said:

As for your second question: no one is forced to 'suffer' my attitude. The vast majority of players I talk to seem to summarize my attitude as 'funny' or, at worst, 'weird'. A handful of people seem to hold a lower opinion of me and subsequently block me to not see me or my posts, yourself included, thus ending their 'suffering'. As is the nature of QC complaints, this is largely vibes-based. The three things I'm accused of are saying weird things that are explicitly mentioned as not breaking any rules (guilty as charged), me arguing in bad-faith (a vibes-based claim seemingly predicated on Dreemix thinking I'm a psyop? ["porbo is some elaborate scheme to troll us, waste everyone's time, shitpost on massive scale"]), and the belief that I'm a bad impact on the community. I don't think I am and I haven't heard the myriad of people I speak to on the server express this opinion either. If you feel as though me playing on the server will transform my impact into a positive one then I'm waiting with bated breath to hear where that playtime threshold lies.

You are not the judge of what other people see your behavior as. Claiming 'the vast majority of players' and similar lines is not really a valid argument because its not very provable and has no actual names tied to it. People seeing your arguments are affected one way or the other, and from what I can tell, its usually on the negative end. A lot of people won't speak up about negative things on the server, for one reason or another, so just because they didn't tell you directly doesn't mean it is not happening. The onus is on you to read the room, so to speak. Additionally, this 'vibes-based' stuff is ridiculous. If multiple people feel the need to straight up block you, you are doing something wrong.

 

All of that being said, due to your negative impact on the community with no playtime to justify your arguments, you are going to be permanently banned from the official discord servers until appeal, and you can appeal in 1 month (8/06/2023). This is only a discord ban, and you are still able to connect to the server. I highly suggest you do connect and play some rounds if you want to come back to discord.