Character Complaint - Sasha Kaiser

[CourierBravo]

BYOND Key: CourierBravo
Game ID: ctI-aBAA
Player Byond Key/Character name: Sasha Kaiser
Staff involved: Eddymakaveli
Reason for complaint: Character behavior to the point of making game not enjoyable to play.

This characters pattern of behavior: being aggressive, verbally abusive, and breathing down the necks of others around the ship has made playing bridge crew no longer enjoyable for me. This character orders bridge crew around, belittles, berates, and otherwise verbally abuses if his way is not gotten. I have been doing everything in my power to try and roleplay this out, to create any level of resolution so I can be left alone. But today was a breaking point for me. I gave him feedback, and he shut it down by telling me to shut the fuck up. I'm sorry to the player for having to make this complaint, but there's a point where you are making things not enjoyable. We are past it. I need you at an OOC level to please reconsider how you play this character.

I have put a lot of thought into my feeling about this, even sleeping on it. I fully believe that this is not me getting caught up in my characters feelings, taking in-character behavior personally at an OOC level. I have decided to not make it an Incident Report because it goes beyond in game at this point. It goes without saying that asshole characters are allowed and normal. But, you must take into account that people are on the other side of that monitor. I can handle being verbally berated and belittled in character and walk away with no OOC hurt feelings. But, it starts to wear on me when every interaction I have with your character is them verbally abusing mine, or another character. Constantly referring to others as stupid, idiots, and dumbasses. Calling everyone else incompetent over simple mistakes. There is no good faith given by this character, and its detrimental to my ability to enjoy the game in any capacity.

To explain an example of problem behavior: Sasha will demand sensor scans within the first 5 minutes of the round starting. No please or thank you's. You can explain to him that this takes time, but he won't listen.
Sasha will also order crewmen to go do scouting around the sector for away sites. I'm going to be frank here. Going around in the canary to scout for away sites we both know you aren't going to investigate is not fun or enjoyable. Those scouting missions can take 30 minutes to an hour to get done, depending on how the hazards are. I know that flying around is the crewmen's job, but asking us to constantly go out and scout puts a 30+ minute block on our ability to roleplay.
I know this is seemingly relatively small, when you break them up as two instances. But having it be nearly every time and over multiple months, it builds up. Its not one single instance, its a buildup over two months.

For the round mentioned above. What made me decide to just walk away from the round and make this complaint was our interaction over radio. My characters plee for you to just back off please and let me have the chance to do anything was shut down with a "Please shut the fuck up, get over yourself." I tried to engage further, but it was ignored. This is not good RP.

I'd also like to bring attention to the previous round (I do not have the game ID, round before game listed above). Your character said some fucking awful things, belittling, berating, and verbally abusing the head of security for not having everything under control during a very chaotic round. That felt shitty just to see, I can't imagine how the head of security player feels.

I'm tired, man. I dont want you to like, 180 and everything has to be sunshine and rainbows forever and no conflict can ever happen again. Conflict is good. This isn't conflict, this feels like work. I don't wanna play a game where other characters make me feel like I'm actually at my job. I wanna roleplay someone at a job.

Did you attempt to adminhelp the issue at the time? If so, what was the known action taken by administration/moderation? Yes, recommended to make a complaint on forum.
Approximate Date/Time: Over the last 2 months or so. Game ID isn't a great example, this is a pattern of behavior that goes back for the last 2 months now. In game time: about 30 minutes into the round. For previous round, it was around 2 hours in, the previously mentioned yelling at was right as the round was ending, in the last 15 minutes.

[Rabid Animal]

Courier, we are in contact over discord. I'm a little hurt you saw fit to make a complaint instead of just talking to me. I'm going to preface this entire post with this: It is extremely difficult to play an abrasive character because of how people begin to take it as an OOC offense. I've been contacted by no shortage of people who feel Sasha is unfun or too much, and I will specifically try to do better by them. All that said; you're trying to tell me this isn't OOC motivated but I genuinely don't believe you. Nothing you've said has not had an IC justification, and you're accusing me of poor RP with complete bias. 

 

You are phrasing this as if Sasha has never made any attempt to reconcile things, but it gets to a point where its genuinely not worth his time. I can pinpoint the exact moment this went wrong, a round wherein we had three BCs, two of which were 'problem children' and Sasha was genuinely leaning on Samga to do something after a week or so of arguing with the other two. You know what happened? Samga lied to his face because she didn't want to go scouting. She proved herself untrustworthy and has been treated that way ever since. You know what this is limited to? Barring any talk back, it's "BC's, fax me the scans." He reminds her, every shift, to do her job; because in his mind, she needs the reminder. Not once has he rushed her, not once has he bitched her out for taking too long. No. He just asks for the scans.

He's laid off, he's tried talking it out, but it turns into an argument. He's tried meeting with her, but she doesn't respond. She has personally and intentionally antagonized him. You cannot, in your right mind, think that after a month of this that he's going to give her the time of day because she 'asked?'

Sasha is her boss, maybe not her direct superior, but a superior none the less. He doesn't need to ask please and thank you, he wants Samga to do her job. That's it. If you don't like doing that job on an ooc level I genuinely don't know why you are playing the BC role to begin with. I think its a very bad faith argument to assume I'm sending you on a scouting trip for no reason, with no intention of organizing anything. Sasha does away missions all the time. Beyond that, I have personally relaxed a LOT on the scouting missions, to the point it really only happens if we have multiple bridge crew or if there's really jack all in range. You know what Sasha has you do instead? Move the Horizon.

All of this is an IC issue.

 

To address your specific points:
>Sasha will demand sensor scans within the first 5 minutes[...]this takes time, but he won't listen.
Sasha has his morning meeting with his scientists, after everyone is settled in and tasked for the day, he asks for the scans and moves to his office. He doesn't say "now" or "hurry up," I don't know how this could be misconstrued into malice. From your perspective, it's a voice on the radio asking you to do something. I get that, so do that thing. What's the issue here?
Yes; he will bitch you out if you argue with him. I'm not denying that.

>My characters plee for you to just back off please and let me have the chance to do anything was shut down[...]
He asks for the scans, they argue, the CE shuts it down. Nothing of note. We move the horizon, he asks for the planetary scan.  Relative silence, then a wall of text accusing him of rushing her, demanding he say please, and her threatening to quit. This was genuinely funny. I'm not even sorry because what did you expect to happen? Him to say sorry and concede to every demand? You know the character by now. You had your chance to reconcile when he asked weeks prior. That's not to say its impossible, but sitting there and patronizing the guy isn't going far.

>I tried to engage further, but it was ignored. This is not good RP.
Samga was ignored because Sasha was trying to get an away mission started, one that should have lifted off 30 minutes earlier but was met with delays unrelated. He doesn't have the time to sit here and argue, again, with this BC who has not once proven to him that they're worth his time of day. You asked, and I quote, "Are you okay?" to an impersonal man with a focus on work. He is not going to respond to that. Telling me this is bad RP is wild.

>Your character said some fucking awful things[...]
Yeah he did. After standing on a landmine for around 20 minutes, tensions were high. Brother nearly had his life literally blown away, and the FR sat on comms bitching him out for not helping immediately with chems before outright refusing to stage in the event the landmine actually did go off. He wanted them charged. The commander outright refused. What do you think is realistic here? For him to go pout in a corner or to I don't know, vocalize his frustration? Just because Kaiser is mean does not mean he is wrong.

I could type paragraphs explaining this round in detail to you, I really could. Don't assume he's just sitting there saying vile shit for no reason.

>I can't imagine how the head of security player feels
Frankly they shouldn't feel anything. They joined late in a chaotic round, and chaos ensued. This is IC. No one has ever had anything against them OOC, and if that line is being blurred people need to take a step back and breathe.

Edited May 14 by Rabid Animal
Finding screenshots

[eddymakaveli]

Hey!

@Yonnimer and I will be handling this complaint.
 

It'll take some time to search the logs in question and allow for others’ testimony to be given. While others are allowed to chime in regarding the in-character behavior of Sasha if they'd have experience with it, we would remind you of our rules for player complaints if you plan on posting anything.

[La Villa Strangiato]

I was given tacit permission to post by @eddymakaveli, hi.

I am gonna be dead honest and say that when I was first playing research alongside Sasha Kaiser as the character Rosalea Arrellanes, a xenoarchaeologist, I had some bad vibes. Some of the comments he made to her felt charged, and the character was demanding in a way that I wasn't able to accommodate ICly or OOCly because of mechanics, inconvenience, or otherwise. As well, Rosalea was not charismatic or willing to soothe, and she flew off the handle at Sasha right back. I also admit that some of the exchanges the characters had reminded me of bad experiences I'd had IRL, so that soured things a bit. This isn't really 50n00b's fault at all, just "this hit me the wrong way at a bad time".

I kept it to IC and tried to avoid the character if I didn't feel up to dealing with it. After I ended Rosalea's character arc and moved on to a new xenoarchaeologist character, Jiaxing Volvalaad, I decided "what the hell" and started playing the character when Sasha was in the science department, despite some reservations. Through the positive interactions Jiaxing and Sasha had and getting to chat with 50n00b OOCly, it hit me that being suspicious of them as a person was unfounded. I was happy I was wrong, and I learned a lesson about not basing my opinions off of pure vibes.

This is me saying that I do not believe 50n00b means to hurt people OOCly. I think they are operating with intent to play a character, and a character who is an asshole. This is good in the context of a story, and reasonable. Asshole characters make the character-driven plot go 'round.

However, when you're (the general you, in this case, because this applies to everyone) playing an asshole character, you need to be aware of pathos. Pathos is literally defined as "[a] quality, as of an experience or a work of art, that arouses feelings of pity, sympathy, tenderness, or sorrow". Even a character who is rude, abrasive, or just shitty to people needs to have a moment when they arouse sympathy, pity, or empathy. To put it in layman's terms, there needs to be moments when you're tired of going apeshit.

I have had IC interactions where I got to experience pathos. Courier has not. This does not make her feelings invalid, because I can say it does grate to have your only experience with a character being them acting like a total dick.

As much as the character's grown on me, I think the conclusion I've come to is that the gas needs to be let up just a little bit on Sasha's outbursts. He's a command character, and speaking as a member of the lore team administration, the SCC tries to ensure at least somewhat that their command can play well with others. I do think that the character can be slightly less abrasive without compromising the schtick of his character, and that it can even be progressed towards IC.

[YourDaddy117]

Hello I play Cornelius Huizhong who was the HOS that was mentioned in the complaint. For context regarding the round itself Cornelius and Kaiser had a consistent back and forth due to the fact that early on after I joined a first responder temporarily threw a fit about having to stage near research while Kaiser was stuck standing on a landmine. This was after Research was blown up by multiple explosives, so his irritation makes plenty of sense from an IC perspective. I won't bother going deeper on Huizhong's own perspective on things (though for the record the FR was eventually charged after all of the chaos was over) but I will elaborate on how it all made me feel from an OOC side of things.

I should start off by saying that I'm a very self conscious person to begin with and my own mental hangups can result in me being overly critical of my performance in-game and elsewhere, even if no one else brings it up IC or OOC. Obviously I knew that it was an hour in, there was an interim HOS, and the alert was Blue so I expected some difficulty. At first Kaiser's attitude during the round wasn't really a big deal and I'd even say I enjoyed the arguing, however as the round went on and more and more crazy stuff started happening it did get to be rather grating from an OOC point of view. Several officers had either been injured or killed along with Huizhong himself getting critically injured and needing surgery while Kaiser still was screaming the ear off of Cornelius for not handling something that was just not at all a priority. I don't think this was at all OOCly motivated and it made sense for Kaiser to be incredibly pissed at how things were being handled. That said I would be lying if I didn't say that the interactions didn't leave me kind of bummed out. Playing HOS can be a lot of stress and the expectations to both be playing a good character like everyone else while also being at least somewhat competent at just playing the game can be very overwhelming, which only gets harder when there's someone telling you you're an idiot on the Command channel for an hour. I do think this round was colored by the fact there was no Captain or even an XO, so there wasn't anyone higher on the chain to rein in us Heads while we bickered which would have probably changed the dynamic quite a bit.

Outside of that round I think Kaiser is a decent character even if my interactions have been kind of limited. They don't seem necessarily unrealistic in their nature and I for one actually like people being rude or unlikable. Obviously we can't have characters who are friends with everybody. It's good to have that mix of abrasive in with the calmer personalities. The problem to me is that these kinds of characters are very hard to balance and in a lot of cases your character just kind of becomes someone people don't want to interact with all that much because they can be very one note if the only side you see of a person is the grouchy asshole one. Part of the reason I didn't ready-up or join the round after the one mentioned earlier is partly because I was burnt out after the previous half-round I had played, but it was also because I kind of didn't want a repeat of the unending arguing and screaming.

I don't really know what else to say but I feel like I need to clarify that this isn't a bash against anyone OOCly. I just want to enjoy good RP and I guess bringing up how I felt about all of this is better than just staying quiet about it. Hopefully this can just be a learning experience for everyone instead of something that creates any animosity.

[CourierBravo]

3 hours ago, Rabid Animal said:

Courier, we are in contact over discord. I'm a little hurt you saw fit to make a complaint instead of just talking to me. I'm going to preface this entire post with this: It is extremely difficult to play an abrasive character because of how people begin to take it as an OOC offense. I've been contacted by no shortage of people who feel Sasha is unfun or too much, and I will specifically try to do better by them. All that said; you're trying to tell me this isn't OOC motivated but I genuinely don't believe you. Nothing you've said has not had an IC justification, and you're accusing me of poor RP with complete bias. 

Can you please explain what you mean that you do not believe me that its not OOCly motivated, or that this is biased. I do not appreciate this accusation, nor the accusation that I'm lying about this.

I appreciate your incredibly detailed response, however. And yes, while you're right that a lot of this is in character issues, the big picture is that because of these interactions, I dont wanna play when this character is around. Though, again, I do not appreciate the tone you have about this explanation.

2 hours ago, La Villa Strangiato said:

I have had IC interactions where I got to experience pathos. Courier has not. This does not make her feelings invalid, because I can say it does grate to have your only experience with a character being them acting like a total dick.

Strangiato hit it right on the nail.

I'm sorry that you feel hurt here, that was not the intended outcome. But, this isn't malicious, and the goal here isn't to get you in trouble. My goal here isn't to have your character removed or whatever either. I reached out to moderation to figure out some way to resolve this, and this is what I was told to do. My only goal is to find a solution to something thats a problem for me, and I don't know how to remediate it. That's also a reason why I didn't say something to you over DM's as well, but I don't think that's particularly a reasonable ask either. If we can get this resolved without throwing around the idea that this is all bad faith and that I'm a liar, I'd deeply appreciate that.

[Rabid Animal]

You explicitly said that this had no OOC bearing with:
"I fully believe that this is not me getting caught up in my characters feelings, taking in-character behavior personally at an OOC level"

This is specifically what I refer to when I say there is OOC motivation behind this. This is you taking it personally, Samga was called incompetent once and now any slight hint of the idea has led to an outburst. Do you think I'm in a different boat? It's exhausting having the same conversation 18 times in a row, I really barely talk to Samga unless its needed for the research staff - and every single time I do it's just: "Don't tell me what to do," in any number of ways. 

I'm trying to express some amount of frustration that the nuclear response was the first step taken when I have, for some time now, attempted to be friendly with you in DMs - either to be ignored entirely or shrugged off. That's okay, man, we don't need to be friendly. But when you start throwing out comments like "This is poor RP" just because it didn't cater to your specific desires, yeah. That feels like bias. This is why I think there is some OOC frustration here, its not an attack against you; it's fine to have some degree of OOC frustration over things - I don't know why you would deny that. I'm not accusing you of lying or making this complaint in bad faith either, I just wish you would reciprocate a little bit so this kind of thing didn't happen in the first place.

 

Beyond all that;
I want to point out the round with the FR really only had two major arguments, one at the very beginning when Corndog showed up, and one after it had all cooled down. Sasha did not, in fact, sit there and berate him the entire hour and a half they were working. I'm sorry if it became stressful for you regardless @YourDaddy117, I know HoS is really hard. I know that round was absolute chaos. I have nothing against you or your playstyle. These kinds of crazy outbursts really only occur during antag rounds when stuff has gone extremely awry - but Sasha has a temper, and there's plenty of things around to set him off.

[CourierBravo]

43 minutes ago, Rabid Animal said:

This is you taking it personally

Its not. I do have OOC frustration, but it is absolutely and never has been about that. I'm not denying that my frustration has grown to an OOC level neither, its why we're here in the first place. But you did accuse bad faith. And you made it sound like an accusation that I'm lying and I have ulterior motives here. That's all I have to say on it.
This isn't want I wanted, I didn't want for this to blow up into a whole thing, or become some great series of accusations. We're very much in the same boat, I would like for things to be more civil and less... this. Can we stop here for today, and we can try again tomorrow? Please?

[Lmwevil]

Gentle reminder that Character Complaints are not for arguing back and forth, nor is it to debate. 

Please remain civil and only post if you have constructive information to add for the reviewing staff members while also remaining within the complaint board rules. 

Posts that are not adhering to the above will be removed or hidden at staff discretion.

EDIT: Since I may have been unclear. The constructive information is only to be given if you are directly involved in the reporting incidents, or are given permission by the assigned staff of this complaint. When in doubt, ask a staff member before posting to avoid potential warnings.

[Yonnimer]

After some discussion, we've come to the decision that Kaiser's aggression at times can cross the line between what's believable and what's allowed under rule #1.

 

Voicing frustration/annoyance with something is fine, but Kaiser's behavior during this tends to lean on being abusive, constantly insulting people and telling people to fuck off or that they're terrible in an argument, which is oocly turning people off from even being in rounds with the character. While normally this behavior can be handled icly, the consistency and aggressiveness of it turns it into an occ issue as it breaks rule 1, don't be a dick, don't ruin the game for others. The behavior on display across all the screenshots, your own included, paint a picture of a character who is incredibly demeaning for no reason and will aggressively fight someone over the smallest detail, rather than try to work it through with them or just give a quick and simple "Do your job", it's a constant barrage of "fuck off"s and "Shut up".

 

It's also worth bringing up that, after a certain point, this type of behavior breaks believability on the character even being hired as command. Command does not have to always be polite with their orders, but should still hold some level of professionalism, they're highly trained members commanding one of the most important ships in our setting, they'd be vetted and trained to not cause issues or snap at staff all the time. A recent example of this would be here, where kaiser snaps at a janitor for just telling him he should clean his shoes in medical, telling him to fuck off near immediately, this isn't believable behavior from someone who the scc would hire as an RD.

 

It's one thing to just be a little demanding in a order, it's another to tell them to shut up or fuck off when they just ask to be more polite. The previously mentioned head of security incident is one instance of this, while frustration is understandable and expected over previous round incidents with the landmine, going completely off on the hos and constantly telling them they're terrible and a horrible hos aren't behavior command should be exhibiting, both from and icly and oocly standpoint and while I don't believe it was the intention, saying the security team would've been better off without them can absolutely be seen as telling the hos' player that they shouldn't have joined the round as an OOC complaint against them and their play, something that can be incredibly demotivating to the player in a situation that could've been handled differently. Voiceing frustrations over something not being handled is one thing, telling the hos all of what kaiser said because they wouldn't handle a minor issue during a major crisis is another and far too much.

 

Overall Kaiser just needs to tone it all down, they can still be abrasive/rude when it's warranted, but they can't be this vulgar going forward. If you have questions you're free to dm me or eddy, otherwise we'll be closing this complaint sometime soon.

[Rabid Animal]

I don't really agree with this assessment, I'm extremely frustrated with how this has gone, and I think it speaks towards an unwillingness to allow people to make characters against the grain. I've played Kaiser for over a year and his language has never been 'the' issue people have with him, it's clownish, it's over the top, and it's one way I communicate with people that this is a character - don't take him seriously. In trying to make that as clear as possible it's been decided that he doesn't fit into command, something I've personally put a lot of thought into - but this isn't really the place to start arguing my case.

 

Toning the character down strips a lot of the soul I've poured into it, which has brought far more enjoyment than it has ruined. I'm obviously sorry to anyone who has been affected by my play OOCly regardless. But I do not want to tone him down, I've thought about it all week, I took a few days off just moping about it, and I said it then and I'll say it now: I'm not going to lobotomize a character for a small minority of people who take his actions personally. I played one round right after the complaint and was absolutely miserable in worry that everything I did would offend someone (this includes the screenshot you posted with the chef) and that I would rather retire the character than deal with that constantly.

Edit:
I posted this too soon. I had just woken up and it was the first thing I saw, so I apologies if this comes across as idk rude or anything, Yonni. I've talked to a lot of people the last few hours over this and I'll try to take what you said to heart. I still don't think vulgarity is the issue, (and I really do stand by what I said above) but it's definitely something that stems from the overall aggression, which I think I can tone down a bit. I don't want to loose the characters identity in doing so, and so it may take me a few rounds to actually figure that balance out. idk

Cheers.

Edited May 20 by Rabid Animal
pk might be an overreaction after all

[eddymakaveli]

Hello!

I wanted to add my own piece as one of the handling staff. To keep it real, Sasha is not a 'bad' or 'unbelievable' character. In fact, I am sure that many of us that who have worked within the corporate sphere - have had a boss exactly like Sasha. Someone incredibly demanding and sometimes degrading, with standards that seem impossible to meet.

The issue comes with the fact that sacrificing believability for collaborative storytelling and other's enjoyment of the game, is a core aspect of Aurora in general. In many logs we combed through, a lot of Sasha's complaints or criticism weren't entirely out of bounds or unreasonable, but where it erred was when they would continue to be at a '10' - and not giving people space to breathe. I am not saying that you need to walk on eggshells, but understand that Sasha's position as a member of command puts it so they could likely be a huge bully without consequence for anyone they treat in that way that /isn't/ command. Someone who tires of his attitude/antics and might be inclined to say something in return or even defend themselves, could quite literally be arrested and have it on their employment character IC. As large of a collection of megacorporations that the SCC is, it wouldn't think it worthwhile to employ someone whose attitude and workplace demeanor could open them up to civil litigation - even in the corporate dystopia that Aurora takes place within. Though Sasha doesn't only go after non-command members, the punching down that occurs without a real means to curb the behavior - sticks out as the reason that Yonnimer and I made the decision that we did.

We understand that you're enjoying playing the character and that you are not doing so to purposefully make others have a bad time, We are not asking you to play the loveable, always friendly and polite boss - Sasha can absolutely still be a huge asshole. What needs to change is the fact that at the drop of a hat, he goes to '10' and does so for the rest of his interactions with the object of his ire and adjacents. We understand that it might take some time to tune the behavior to something a little more acceptable, and we won't be on your ass about it. The intent isn't for you to think "Ah, if I am even a little mean to someone I am going to be ahelped and banned", because that isn't true at all, and we don't want you walking on eggshells, more so just a bit more cognizant of how he can come off.

As always, if you disagree with the decision or what we've said, every player has the right to file a staff complaint to contest the decision.

[Yonnimer]

Sorry for the slight delay with closing this, got a little distracted with some IRL things, closing and archiving