Addition of an Energy Dagger to the Antag Uplink

[Bolbos]

Cool idea that popped in my head, about a pen that can basically turn into an energy dagger like in TGstation, I do feel like we lack hidden melee options other than the concealed cane (can be very easily identified if you don't usually carry a cane anyways OOCly) so this would be a welcome addition.

[Butterrobber202]

Quote

https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/blob/a13f8004a3bedcc6b243e9286ee3f7085c66b5ce/code/game/objects/items/weapons/melee/energy.dm

/obj/item/melee/energy/sword/knife

As a note, the base object for this weapon already exists, someone would just have to add a concealable pen state and it would work.

[Fluffy]

Unfortunately I do not see this as being accepted, as per maintainer discussion in https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/19572#issuecomment-2208855718

"We don't want "invisible weapons" to be a thing since the first shot advantage in SS13 is a big factor in game balance."

[CatsinHD]

1 minute ago, Fluffy said:

Unfortunately I do not see this as being accepted, as per maintainer discussion in https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/19572#issuecomment-2208855718

"We don't want "invisible weapons" to be a thing since the first shot advantage in SS13 is a big factor in game balance."

I don't think that ruling necessarily applies here. That MD was in regard to a weapon firing from a storage slot, meaning you can shoot someone with no lead up or indication. It goes from nothing to bang.

The Idea mentioned by OP is a concealable dagger, but it still has to wielded and activated in hand before it can be used. It provides no real advantage over a boot knife in a fight in terms of first shot advantage. It goes from nothing, to in hand (optionally, activate as well), to stab.

Essentially, the weapon should have to be in hand (and thus visible) to be used.

[Fluffy]

8 minutes ago, CatsinHD said:

The Idea mentioned by OP is a concealable dagger, but it still has to wielded and activated in hand before it can be used. It provides no real advantage over a boot knife in a fight in terms of first shot advantage. It goes from nothing, to in hand (optionally, activate as well), to stab.

Essentially, the weapon should have to be in hand (and thus visible) to be used.

Unfortunately I do not see it this way, the boot knife requires you to open the slot inventory, go over the slot, right click, extract, then it prints a large text about you pulling out a knife, you have to move the cursor back on your opponent and click it to stab.

The TG version of the energy dagger pen (far as I remember) looks just like a pen, if you inspect the person you see it holding a pen; as the attacker, you would put the mouse over your opponent, press activate-in-hand (Z) and click immediately, which is impossible to react to, giving the "first shot" essentially in an invisible way.

It could be made in a different flavour that require some activation windup or to do it by some right click verb etc., but at that point it has little value over a boot knife IMHO.

[CatsinHD]

27 minutes ago, Fluffy said:

Unfortunately I do not see it this way, the boot knife requires you to open the slot inventory, go over the slot, right click, extract, then it prints a large text about you pulling out a knife, you have to move the cursor back on your opponent and click it to stab.

The TG version of the energy dagger pen (far as I remember) looks just like a pen, if you inspect the person you see it holding a pen; as the attacker, you would put the mouse over your opponent, press activate-in-hand (Z) and click immediately, which is impossible to react to, giving the "first shot" essentially in an invisible way.

It could be made in a different flavour that require some activation windup or to do it by some right click verb etc., but at that point it has little value over a boot knife IMHO.

You also completely missed the point of my response. I specifically brought out the context of the MD ruling because of what it responded to: a simplification of the attacking process beyond even what you describe the pen dagger to be. It is quite literally click and drag onto the target (assuming safety is off). No response, no indication. Truly invisible (especially if the silenced pistol could do this).

The boot knife, as far as I'm aware, can be drawn using an action in the top right window. The object tab iirc. I'm not entirely sure on this, but my point isn't hurt by this either.

A gun can do this just as well. You press H, ensure you're on harm intent, and click. RNG is the only savior for the target. The downside being it's visible.
Take another example, a butterfly knife. Butterfly knives can sit in your pocket, which isn't revealed by examining. Click, activate, viola a knife. Most people can do this very quickly. Small guns can do the same, even removing the step to activate it. Just click from the pocket and harm intent click. This is so common, many antags and secoffs do this with great effect.

It is not particularly different to any other weapon especially the concealed cane which is already in the game.

TG is the inspiration of the idea, but thankfully we have the ability to modify how things are implemented as we desire. There are ways to address, you had one idea. Add an extra set to convert the pen, then activate it to turn on the laser blade. The benefit is that if you're searched, it's concealed. No one will know and you get to keep it, which is better than a boot knife which can be found (and requires a boot), or any other manner of weapons that are overtly weapons and would get you arrested/searched. That is the trade-off. Concealment for quick easy use.

Either way, I think it's a neat idea. I'll leave it to the maintainers to decide either here or in a PR if one is made.

Edited December 9 by CatsinHD

[Fluffy]

2 hours ago, CatsinHD said:

You also completely missed the point of my response. I specifically brought out the context of the MD ruling because of what it responded to: a simplification of the attacking process beyond even what you describe the pen dagger to be. It is quite literally click and drag onto the target (assuming safety is off). No response, no indication. Truly invisible (especially if the silenced pistol could do this).

The boot knife, as far as I'm aware, can be drawn using an action in the top right window. The object tab iirc. I'm not entirely sure on this, but my point isn't hurt by this either.

A gun can do this just as well. You press H, ensure you're on harm intent, and click. RNG is the only savior for the target. The downside being it's visible.
Take another example, a butterfly knife. Butterfly knives can sit in your pocket, which isn't revealed by examining. Click, activate, viola a knife. Most people can do this very quickly. Small guns can do the same, even removing the step to activate it. Just click from the pocket and harm intent click. This is so common, many antags and secoffs do this with great effect.

It is not particularly different to any other weapon especially the concealed cane which is already in the game.

You are pointing out things that require some non-basically-nonexistent delay between weapon being known to exist and it hitting you, the holster is visible on inspect, the pockets etc. need you to first move your mouse away to get the weapon in hand (which is visible at that point) and then move the mouse over your victim to click it, etc. etc.

My implementation was flawed in that it has no time to react before you get hit the first time in that PR, though I thought it would be fine given the need to keep dragging the mouse (thus very slow to keep hitting).

The TG implementation would be even worse than that, not only i can activate the energy dagger pen and immediately give my victim the london subway experience with essentially no reaction time left to avoid it, I can keep clicking fast and hit at full speed after the first hit, something my PR didn't allow (you had to either go back and pull the gun out, or keep dragging, both of which adds additional delay ontop of the fire delay). The reply mentions the first shot advantage which both scenario gives you, and here it's even more egregious (if implemented like TG).

 

Of course, we can modify it however we want and you're right this gives a concealability chance in case you're searched, however the suggestion specifically says "an energy dagger like in TGstation" and that's what I have replied to. Other implementations are possible, but I don't see one like TG being accepted (not by me, I would be fine with it, otherwise I would have voted for dismissal).

[Butterrobber202]

not to rain on the parade, but the uh. Energy sword, this thing's would-be bigger cousin, fits in the pocket when unpowered. This pen would still have to be drawn, and activated to be used with would have both audio and visual indicators before the attack can land. The energy-sword is hardly the only way that can do this, since there's nothing stopping anyone from having an energy carbine in their backpack to pull out and shoot someone with, alongside numerous other examples.

this would be completely in-line with what's already in the game.

[Bolbos]

14 hours ago, Fluffy said:

Of course, we can modify it however we want and you're right this gives a concealability chance in case you're searched, however the suggestion specifically says "an energy dagger like in TGstation" and that's what I have replied to. Other implementations are possible, but I don't see one like TG being accepted (not by me, I would be fine with it, otherwise I would have voted for dismissal)

I used it more as an example to explain it better, you can adjust it as you see fit.
 

14 hours ago, Fluffy said:

You are pointing out things that require some non-basically-nonexistent delay between weapon being known to exist and it hitting you, the holster is visible on inspect, the pockets etc. need you to first move your mouse away to get the weapon in hand (which is visible at that point) and then move the mouse over your victim to click it, etc. etc.

I don't see this as a very good dismissal since I can do the same with say a gun, although I'd need to move my mouse over to his sprite he'd still be left with barely any time to react as I would be getting several shots in since it's a ranged weapon and it funnily enough would work better since some species are faster than others which makes a firearm more consistent for ambushes despite having to pull it out from your pockets.

also we have the sleepy pen, changeling death sting, derringer (which I think can be hidden in boots and pulled out with a macro aswell) all three options that can sometimes barely leave you with any time to react, if this isn't allowed then why are these allowed?

Edited December 10 by Bolbos

[Evandorf]

I’m always up for new toys but beyond the aesthetics of a Bond-esque gadget is there a significant change in what this provides over other options? I have to imagine that damage and utility would be lower than an esword to balance for the size reduction since a pen can be hidden more easily and in more places. Ganking is generally frowned upon so in practice I can’t imagine it would be much different than pulling a knife from your boot or even just a screwdriver from behind your ear. I can only really think a primary benefit would be passing a security search.

All that said, I don’t see many downsides to having it aside from uplink bloat. 

[Bolbos]

1 hour ago, Evandorf said:

I’m always up for new toys but beyond the aesthetics of a Bond-esque gadget is there a significant change in what this provides over other options?

It depends on how it's going to be balanced stat-wise but In my opinion I don't think we have many hidden melee options other than the cane (excluding martial arts) so it'd be useful to have something concealable that can be used as a backup if needed in the uplink.

[Evandorf]

1 hour ago, Bolbos said:

It depends on how it's going to be balanced stat-wise but In my opinion I don't think we have many hidden melee options other than the cane (excluding martial arts) so it'd be useful to have something concealable that can be used as a backup if needed in the uplink.

I guess what I’m getting at, and touching a bit on what Fluffy said, is that depending on what you mean by concealed there are a lot of options currently available. You can hide quite a number of deadly weapons in your bag or pocket that only take a second to activate. Maybe if you described your intended use or maybe an ideal scenario for the concealed energy dagger it might help me understand the need it’s trying to fill. If you’re simply wanting a wider variety of melee options I think that’s less a symptom of the items not existing and simply them not being available on the uplink.

[Bolbos]

1 hour ago, Evandorf said:

Maybe if you described your intended use or maybe an ideal scenario for the concealed energy dagger it might help me understand the need it’s trying to fill.

My bad I should have clarified it more but by concealable I generally mean something that can get past a search without much trouble, essentially a plasteel butterfly knife but instead of going into workboots It's going into PDAs.

[Sniblet]

I think the point Fluffy was making is that the penergy dagger as seen in TG can go from 0 to a hit in basically an instant.

A pocket gun needs two clicks in different corners of the screen.

A pen dagger can be pulled out without alarms, then you mouse over your prey, then you set up a typebait, then you press Z and click more or less simultaneously. This would be almost unique in Aurora. A gun must be visibly holstered to do this, and a cane sword needs to be ICly justified. Martial arts need you to land a combo before they really count.

If there’s some charge up period or arbitrary delay from ignition (Z) to the point you can start mauling a bitch (click) then it stops being unique in that way, and everything’s fine again.

Edited December 10 by Sniblet

[Butterrobber202]

53 minutes ago, Sniblet said:

A pen dagger can be pulled out without alarms

So can an energy sword.

[Evandorf]

40 minutes ago, Sniblet said:

I think the point Fluffy was making is that the penergy dagger as seen in TG can go from 0 to a hit in basically an instant.

A pocket gun needs two clicks in different corners of the screen.

A pen dagger can be pulled out without alarms, then you mouse over your prey, then you set up a typebait, then you press Z and click more or less simultaneously. This would be almost unique in Aurora. A gun must be visibly holstered to do this, and a cane sword needs to be ICly justified. Martial arts need you to land a combo before they really count.

If there’s some charge up period or arbitrary delay from ignition (Z) to the point you can start mauling a bitch (click) then it stops being unique in that way, and everything’s fine again.

I think another problem we run into is that aside from stabbing an officer who might be onto you, there are few situations in which going from 0 to ‘mauling a bitch’ fall within our expectations for escalation. If you’re providing sufficient RP and escalating properly I don’t think the tiny amount of time saved matters too much.

[MattAtlas]

I don't particularly care about a pocket energy knife since it'll have very middling damage, too middling to really be relevant (it probably doesn't even go through armour), also considering that you can already have very strong pocket knives that are basically what's being suggested (plasteel butterflies do something like 30 brute and fit in a pocket).

On the other hand, the axiom is different with guns. The only gun you can really hide and shoot without a problem is a shitty 9 millimeter. Revolvers have to be kept in a bag or holster and they're very loud because they're really, really strong weapons - probably either the best or second best in the uplink. Being able to shoot those from just your bag without making a prior sound is a much bigger advantage because it's an instant chest break past the standard carrier.

[Sniblet]

22 hours ago, Evandorf said:

I think another problem we run into is that aside from stabbing an officer who might be onto you, there are few situations in which going from 0 to ‘mauling a bitch’ fall within our expectations for escalation. If you’re providing sufficient RP and escalating properly I don’t think the tiny amount of time saved matters too much.

A lot of our balancing efforts seem to rely on the assumption that antag combat interactions are usually all-out rule-breaking \TG\station deathmatches. I’m glad you see it differently, and I hope whoever’s in charge of implementing the pendagger is the same.

And yeah, the sword completely breaks that point I made. I have no follow-up.

Edited December 11 by Sniblet