Nerf IPC brute reduction

[Frances]

While I do not think going in a punch-out against a robot is an extraordinarily smart idea, a particular cult round tonight had me learn that IPCs currently benefit from a 50% reduction to brute damage. This, combined with other equipment, can lead to horribly silly situations.

Case in point: in this particular round, a single IPC officer armed with riot armor (85% melee damage reduction) and a riot shield (dunno the specifics but I believe it blocks all attacks from the direction you're facing) went against three cultists equipped with full cult gear and blades. The combined force of cultists managed to spam upwards of 50-100 clicks on the (mostly immobile) IPC. The IPC nevertheless won the fight. With half of its health left. (Which took some time - I assume the cultists simply gave up after a certain point).

The 85% melee reduction combined with the 50% brute reduction makes riot IPCs ridiculously strong. In simpler terms, if the damage reduction is calculated multiplicatively (which I assume it is), this means a single IPC in riot gear has as much effective health as thirteen regular unarmored spessmen.

Yes, there's other ways to disable IPCs, but not all of these ways are readily accessible to all, especially to the unprepared. And maybe trying to melee an IPC should be a risky decision and more often than not prone to failure, but it shouldn't result in an immediately guaranteed defeat as you head against what could literally be a walking tank.

Before anyone asks, I wasn't part of the round I mentioned above, and this thread isn't the result of an upset. Simply consider me a concerned citizen. Also Duck, I know you're not around, but if you come back and see this thread, please forgive me.

[Guest]

EMP runes. Readily accessible by the cult. Bam, IPC-be-gone.

However, I find it oddly hilarious that the IPC tanked a total of 900 or so damage in hits, condensed down to 40.

It's definitely worth looking into, however. That was so strange to see Phobos get out of that fight alive. Then again, the gas helped an awful lot.

[Frances]

It's not just for cult, though.

Any situation with an angry mob could currently be defused by essentially a single IPC, unless the opposing group prepared EMPs beforehand.

It's sorta, like, having to go against a tank. And you have to get a rocket launcher. But most people don't think of packing a rocket launcher, because you don't expect tanks, and some people don't even know tanks exist.

[Susan]

I don't think there's an issue. Riot gear is exceedingly strong, and you misunderstand how armor works in this game. It isn't guaranteed to mitigate all hits.

It either absorbs the entire blow, softens it and reduces damage, or does nothing. So Phobos survived so long not because IPCs are OP but because Riot Armor has that 85% chance to entirely negate melee damage.

[Frances]

It either absorbs the entire blow, softens it and reduces damage, or does nothing. So Phobos survived so long not because IPCs are OP but because Riot Armor has that 85% chance to entirely negate melee damage.

A 85% chance to mitigate 100% of the damage still results in an effective mitigation of 85%. This, combined with 50% of the damage going through being ignored, brings us to a total damage mitigation of 92.5%.

[Ryfer]

It's only in riot gear. Earlier in the round I was against a single ghostie, who nearly put me into crit after a /very/ brief battle. The only reason I survived was because the ghost disappeared into a little pile of remains before it finished cutting into me. With the permabrig, I do not doubt I would have eventually been taken down, because my health actually started declining once they figured it out and disarmed me, and I lost the shield; though at that point gas had been released so they didn't get to hit me much more. But yeah. I was facing two of them during most of the fight, before gas. So I think it was more the riot gear, and the shield blocking a hell of a lot.

[Frances]

Well, yes, the riot gear is super strong. But it's twice as strong on IPCs.

The reason why I'm making that suggestion is because I don't believe they should have that kind of bonus. Three people with cultblades weren't able to bruteforce their way through a single IPC. Whereas they would've eventually succeeded with a human.

As Sue pointed out to me in a chat, IPCs have no bones and can't get IB. Aside from their lack of natural healing, they have some crazy good advantages in a fight, probably better than any single race deserves to have.

[mrimatool]

*coughe* Diona

[Frances]

*coughe* Diona

You... can just walk away from a Diona, though. Like, everybody can do that. Unless you've got no legs, in which case what are you doing with your life.

[ZipZero]

Well, yes, the riot gear is super strong. But it's twice as strong on IPCs.

The reason why I'm making that suggestion is because I don't believe they should have that kind of bonus. Three people with cultblades weren't able to bruteforce their way through a single IPC. Whereas they would've eventually succeeded with a human.

As Sue pointed out to me in a chat, IPCs have no bones and can't get IB. Aside from their lack of natural healing, they have some crazy good advantages in a fight, probably better than any single race deserves to have.

Riot armour isn't magnetically attached to the wearer, as far as I know. If you find yourself unable to stab someone through it, perhaps you should consider removing it?

It's not IPCs that have a resistance against brute damage, it's mechanical parts that have that resistance. IPCs are just, conveniently, entirely mechanical. The fact that mechanical parts have a reduction to brute damage is balanced out by the lack of natural healing, and extreme weakness to EMPs. Having metal limbs be as easy to damage as soft flesh doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

Technically, the only advantages IPCs have in a fight are brute damage resistance and lack of pain. Don't underestimate how much a lack of natural healing can effect a fight, I've seen several times where people have been able to regen out of crit when they shouldn't have been able to. The only effect broken bones will have while fighting is make you drop things, which also happens to mechanical limbs that take damage. Internal bleeding, while certainly deadly, won't kill you quick enough to stop you in a fight that only takes a few seconds. I do wish IPCs had organs that could be damaged, though. (Power cell? Cooling system?)

[Eliot Clef]

The IPC in question, Phobos, was:

1) Wearing Riot Armor, as has been mentioned.

2) Carrying a Riot Shield and using it pretty well.

So, in total, he has three layers of defense: Riot Armor, Brute Reduction (contributing that 12.5% boost compared to a normal dude wearing riot armor), and a Riot Shield which -- well I'm not sure what it offers other than fairly regular blocks from melee attacks.

The three of us were a bunch of robe-clad murderous ghosts with only melee weapons. We were unstunnable, but we had an awful time actually getting past his shield and armor. And even then, the ghost MedHUD indicated that he was pretty banged up.

I think, as the person on the losing end of that fight, that the advantage stacking that went on here shouldn't be conflated as an excess of power in IPCs. Also, any sort of EMP weapon will -- as noted -- completely explode an IPC. I've seen a Wizard IPC's head just pop right off from a single ion rifle hit.

This is by far the most harsh drawback that I've seen on any whitelisted race, so I would appreciate any nerfs being looked at reaaaaal carefully before they take place.

[mrimatool]

I have to agree with Eliot on this. And while I do think they might seem overpowered. They're not humans, they're a completely different species, hell they're machines. They're different and that's a good thing, variety is good.

[Dreamix]

I have to agree with Eliot on this. And while I do think they might seem overpowered. They're not humans, they're a completely different species, hell they're machines. They're different and that's a good thing, variety is good.

And the normal, usual, non-whitelisted, human players have it the worst. That is major balance problem and "make an app" is not a solution to the problem. I have given up as a security officer a few times when invincible IPC's were running around, ignoring tasers and generally being too over-powered. Why no one thinks about normal, human players? Everyone seems to want to give their favourite race a boost and "best mechanics". Someone even suggested to give Tajarans a instant-jumping on the tables or a skyrim-khajit instant pickpocketing mechanics, what the fuck... Yes, this upsets me.

Maybe make IPC's filled with delicate, weak and sensitive equipment/internal devices? (And don't say "use emp's and ion rifles", "be more robust" or "make an app", please.)

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

A race with a natural debuff against brute damage is put in armour that nullifies a lot of brute damage, and given a shield that outright blocks brute damage from a particular direction. And his base stats are OP because he took advantage of his abilities stacked with armour? He still had glaring weaknesses; if the cultists had even so much as thought about an EMP too hard, he would have instantly exploded.

This is like calling reinforced walls OP because we don't have the power to destroy them with shards of glass, while ignoring the convienent C4 sitting nearby.

[Frances]

Again, EMPs are not readily available to all.

The only person I know to have a free, reliable EMP is the wizard. Everyone else requires a degree of preparation somehow, which isn't ideal in the middle of a fight you didn't expect.

[Ryfer]

Riot armour isn't magnetically attached to the wearer, as far as I know. If you find yourself unable to stab someone through it, perhaps you should consider removing it?

 

I believe I was actually knocked out/down roughly three times in the fight, certainly long enough to be stripped of at least the helmet or the suit, which would have gotten me killed easily. I was actually worried each time I was knocked down, but it didn't happen.

[nanotoxin]

Kay, really tho?

With this matter, we can have realism or make the game fair. A spess shooter game, or a high roleplaying game.

[Eliot Clef]

Again, EMPs are not readily available to all.

The only person I know to have a free, reliable EMP is the wizard. Everyone else requires a degree of preparation somehow, which isn't ideal in the middle of a fight you didn't expect.

 

EMPs/Ion Weapons are readily available to cultists (although I'm not certain it's doable while mass-summoning manifested ghosts), Wizard, Traitors, Security, ERT. If you've got the materials, you can cook up an EMP grenade in Chemistry.

 

And the normal, usual, non-whitelisted, human players have it the worst. That is major balance problem and "make an app" is not a solution to the problem. I have given up as a security officer a few times when invincible IPC's were running around, ignoring tasers and generally being too over-powered. Why no one thinks about normal, human players? Everyone seems to want to give their favourite race a boost and "best mechanics". Someone even suggested to give Tajarans a instant-jumping on the tables or a skyrim-khajit instant pickpocketing mechanics, what the fuck... Yes, this upsets me.

Maybe make IPC's filled with delicate, weak and sensitive equipment/internal devices? (And don't say "use emp's and ion rifles", "be more robust" or "make an app", please.)

 

A human in full riot gear is pretty hard to take down in melee as well. I doubt they'd have fared as well against three armed, manifested ghosts admittedly. But they actually do have some stuff going for them that an IPC doesn't. An IPC, once removed from the round is... pretty much removed from the round! Death is permanent shy of admin intervention or being turned into an android/borg.

A human who dies will prrrrobably get cloned unless they have DNC orders or otherwise get concealed to prevent it.

This is part of why I think nerfing IPC's durability should be looked at pretty closely, but I'm not going to pitch a fit if it happens. I didn't apply to play IPCs because they're super robust, I just enjoy synthetics. But they can already die hilariously easily.

Also, they're not unstunnable. Use a baton.

[Jamini]

Those manifests probably would have won if they had targetted the hands.

Just sayin'

[Guest]

Again, EMPs are not readily available to all.

The only person I know to have a free, reliable EMP is the wizard. Everyone else requires a degree of preparation somehow, which isn't ideal in the middle of a fight you didn't expect.

 

SS13 is entirely based around unfair stun-to-win 1hit KO combat.

Nothing is fair.

Remember this -

1. When an IPC dies, it dies. Forever.

2. You can just laser it twice and it's going to be locked in a permanent 20% speed shamble, if you aim for both arms those arms will become more or less unusable

3. Like Jamini said, decapitation ignores armor, you can just lop its monitor off and call it a day.

4. EMP runes/Rifles/mixtures/Spells/You name it

However, while I dont see having a few roaming damage tanks on the station - I do understand how this can become a problem if the entire security/antag force is composed out of IPCs. Having 5 damage tanks working on the same team, is horrifying.

[Eliot Clef]

3. Like Jamini said, decapitation ignores armor, you can just lop its monitor off and call it a day.

 

Does it ignore riot helmets? I was targeting head pretty much the entire time, and it didn't seem to help.

[Guest]

...As far as i'm aware, limbs need to recieve a certain bit of damage before they have a chance to fly off, if the riot helmet softened the hits, and my hypothesis is true, then Phobos was either immune or extremely unlikely to get decapitated.

[Guest]

IPC heads require a massive amount of brute before they even fly off. Alberyk can attest to this, as he attempted to energy sword a fellow IPC nuke op's head off because they were dead and they needed their posibrain pulled out. Instead, the sword kept embedding in their head and we panicked and screamed in IC internally.

I opted instead to grab an ion rifle to blow off every single limb of the IPC. It worked, and the entire nuke team just freaking sighed when all that effort and time was wasted on using brute damage to saw the IPC's head off.

If IPC tanking for security starts becoming a problem in which they roll over all robust opposition (such as five-man IPCurity teams), then maybe things will change.

[Erik Tiber]

IPC heads require a massive amount of brute before they even fly off. Alberyk can attest to this, as he attempted to energy sword a fellow IPC nuke op's head off because they were dead and they needed their posibrain pulled out. Instead, the sword kept embedding in their head and we panicked and screamed in IC internally.

I opted instead to grab an ion rifle to blow off every single limb of the IPC. It worked, and the entire nuke team just freaking sighed when all that effort and time was wasted on using brute damage to saw the IPC's head off.

If IPC tanking for security starts becoming a problem in which they roll over all robust opposition (such as five-man IPCurity teams), then maybe things will change.

In such a case, it would be better to add features by introducing hacking and information warfare elements to the game, thus making it more interesting, rather than declaring that all IPC's are hereby composed entirely of tinfoil and duct tape.

[Frances]

They don't need to be exceedingly fragile, but I don't think they should receive a 50% reduction to all brute damage. They already have various other bonuses and specialties, and making them elite melee combatants doesn't need to be added to those.

Saying they have other weaknesses has little to do with it. The only relevant weakness here is EMP (and lack of quick healing, to a degree). The fact that they can't get cloned has little to do with their ability to fight.