Bring Back The Lawyers

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

IAA are neutered and no one gives them any authority over security, so security lacks immediate round-relevant oversight. An overhauled IAA could be made something you need a Head whitelist for, and lawyer comes back to ensure justified briggings. Like I'd play the fuck out of a lawyer role; it would allow us more opportunities for prison-rp and a hopeful balance against unjust briggings.

Plus it's easier to explain why Dwayne Johnson, Lawyer, is a stupid dumb-ass - in that he's just a regular dumb lawyer - than it is to explain why the NT trusted and vetted IAA is running around naked stabbing people with a scalpel. Our lawyers would be corporate lawyers trained in Corporate Regulations, and when/if necessary, relevant Biesel/Tau Ceti laws.

-me in the IAA overhaul thread

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Currently security has no oversight over its powers of the briggings. We have an undeniable trend of hard-asses and assholes in both the officer role and the HoS role. People are being brigged left and right, often for extortionary times. There's little IAA can do, because everyone up to the Captain screams "IAA HAVE NO OVERSIGHT OVER SECURITY STOP INTERFERING ALSO YOU'RE STUPID"

Now, despite the hyperbole, I genuinely think lawyers will provide good RP for prisoners and security while also ensuring (ideally) that brig times are fair.

Lawyers would ensure that security (and, in their secondary role, the station as a whole) are following Corporate Regulations at all times. They ensure that people brigged are brigged for a fair reason, that their time is fair, and ensure that they are released when their time is up. They represent prisoners, and keep the HoS and Warden updated on the influx and outflux of inmates, and generally is the guy in a suit on the side of the prisoners.

If we press further, we could allow perma-brigging matters to have the lawyer defend the prisoner in question during a tribunal if the evidence or reasoning for the permabrigging is very shoddy, but that is perhaps a separate proposal.

Lore-wise, this suggestion is valid. Nanotrasen would entirely have a horde of lawyers on retinue from Biesel Legal Services or their standard Corporate Liability Lawyers. Lawyers may, since we never have psychologists, also sign off on cyborgification consent forms or other contracts where liability may be an issue; even sign off on self-testing if an RD is not available, but that is an additional power that is a step above the original desire: Oversight of security for Corporate Regulations.

Mechanically we could make them an alternative job title for IAA without a loyalty implant, with security access, and a security radio(?).

And a briefcase ofc.

[Guest]

We could give them the Vacant office.

[Frances]

I can get behind this. With the communal brig and its little visitation room, the security wing pretty much harbors the perfect conditions to accommodate lawyers.

Vacant office is kinda nice for antagging/renovations, but there's plenty of areas where we could squeeze an extra room.

[Jamini]

Alternatively, make it legal for the cap to pardon or reduce non-HoT crimes. Or both.

You know, since technically they should have authority over security. Not the other way around.

[Guest]

Alternatively, make it legal for the cap to pardon or reduce non-HoT crimes. Or both.

You know, since technically they should have authority over security. Not the other way around.

 

I tried to suggest giving Captain the power to pardon minor and some medium regulations, since they are that: Corporate Regulations. They arent laws, they're corporate rules that should be able to be reprieved by the highest onboard authority.

[Frances]

Alternatively, make it legal for the cap to pardon or reduce non-HoT crimes. Or both.

They don't?

I thought the captain had the ability to override anybody's judgement (within reason).

[Eliot Clef]

Alternatively, make it legal for the cap to pardon or reduce non-HoT crimes. Or both.

They don't?

I thought the captain had the ability to override anybody's judgement (within reason).

 

I am fairly certain that Jamini is reacting at least in part to the events described in this complaint >> http://aurorastation.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=2803

Personally I don't really care if the Captain or even Security pardons/reduces sentences for stuff, but I think the waters are going to get reaaaaaal muddy on this front. The line between waving people through for relatively minor stuff and simply interfering with Security operations is pretty fine, and even the minor stuff can bite you in the ass.

(I know, I tended to let people go with warnings early on in my time here. They usually wound back up in the brig for something worse than I released them for.)

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

The Captain having power to pardon people is not in this suggestion.

[K0NFL1QT]

... explain why Dwayne Johnson, Lawyer, is a stupid dumb-ass...

 

 

But for serious. I thought the IAA was already supposed to do all the things you're talking about; ensure everybody and security are following Corporate Regulations at all times, ensure that people brigged are brigged for a fair reason, that their time is fair, and ensure that they are released when their time is up.

In that way, I see a lot of co-operation between IAA and the Warden. I tend to play Warden with an extreme bias towards fairness, not only serving as jailer for the actually guilty but also making sure that wrongful arrests are dealt with. As in, if there's no evidence for something then there's no cell time, and I don't let officers arbitrarily inflate cell times because they're jackasses.

So what's the difference between Internal Affairs and a Lawyer? Internal Affairs are supposed to ensure that Corporate Regulations, ie THE LAW, is followed by everyone. And sometimes that will mean having to fight for a prisoner who was arrested without evidence. It's the same thing, just a different name.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Internal Affairs has been... Neutered when it comes to security, for quite a long time. I used to play IAA quite a lot, but whenever I went against security's desire it turned into a tooth and nail fight where they argued that IAA has no authority to determine the legality of a brigging.

Having someone who's sole job is working with security specifically for corporate regulations being upheld in hat department would provide more RP, more oversight, and more possibilities for prisoners, security, and trust within the security department. Knowing you have someone who's literal job description is to make sure you're well and fairly treated could do wonders for repairing the damage security's reputation has been suffering from.

[K0NFL1QT]

As a Duty Officer, you know all you have to do is shoot a fax to Centcom and call down the power of the Almighty Nanotrasen if Security are being unreasonably resistant to an IAAs interference. I'm usually more than happy to let IAA go chat with prisoners; it keeps the prisoners entertained, makes the IAA feel useful and frees the Warden up for other duties.

IAA indirectly wields more power than Captains; but they can only use it on people who are breaking regulations.

I think the problem isn't so much the duties and expectations of the IAA role, it's that the Security team around you don't appreciate or understand that role.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

I'm literally playing a lawyer right now as a custom job title. I have basic security and brig access, and a security headset.

I have to say I'd love to have that little 'sitting place' just below the communal brig turned into a tiny office, or that open room near the warden's office.

I'll continue to play as this for several rounds (HoP/captain not being deny-happy buttlords allowing) and try to bring actual case-report results to this thread for people to mull over.

[Guest]

Internal Affairs has been... Neutered when it comes to security, for quite a long time. I used to play IAA quite a lot, but whenever I went against security's desire it turned into a tooth and nail fight where they argued that IAA has no authority to determine the legality of a brigging.

 

That is correct, IAA have no say regarding criminal cases. That's because their business is Internal Affairs.

 

Having someone who's sole job is working with security specifically for corporate regulations being upheld in hat department would provide more RP, more oversight, and more possibilities for prisoners, security, and trust within the security department. Knowing you have someone who's literal job description is to make sure you're well and fairly treated could do wonders for repairing the damage security's reputation has been suffering from.

 

But is it productive?

Would we lose anything by not putting it in?

What about the negatives? What if people were to abuse this position just to get a high out of annoying the literal shit out of security and making their job more difficult? How would this benefit standard operation of security forces?

What do we really have to gain here from this suggestion?

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Having someone who's sole job is working with security specifically for corporate regulations being upheld in hat department would provide more RP, more oversight, and more possibilities for prisoners, security, and trust within the security department. Knowing you have someone who's literal job description is to make sure you're well and fairly treated could do wonders for repairing the damage security's reputation has been suffering from.

 

Saying people could abuse the position is kinda... Like not irrelevant, but I question it. Literally any position that isn't whitelisted is open to chucklefucks. Why would we want to deny new opportunities just because we'll get the odd shitler? This logic would be the exact same for saying IAA shouldn't be added, if we never had it for some reason.

[Guest]

I'm less concerned about the chucklefucks and more concerned about the people who want to be 'serious' about the role but still fall very short of the outlined expectations.

This is more than likely a job that is going to create problems.

[Guest]

Internal Affairs has been... Neutered when it comes to security, for quite a long time. I used to play IAA quite a lot, but whenever I went against security's desire it turned into a tooth and nail fight where they argued that IAA has no authority to determine the legality of a brigging.

 

That is correct, IAA have no say regarding criminal cases. That's because their business is Internal Affairs.

 

 

You do realize that Internal Affairs IRL is literally a department in Police Departments thats job is to ensure Police Officers are behaving, following procedure, and stuff like that, their IRL counterpart are literally the police that police police.

Security above all other departments, is under IA's purview.

[Guest]

IA responds to non-criminal procedure breaches.

In addition, security is not a police force, as has been stated many times by the administration and the lore team itself. That consensus has not changed.

Security may also lord over their fellow officers in terms of procedure breaches. I have made NoD arrests before regarding officers that made illegal arrests or skipped over escalation of force rulings and procedure.

Quite frankly, IA is of little use anymore. Security can already do its job ensuring corporate policies and directives are followed, assuming the team is fluid and working efficiently without incident. IA is also equally as useful with an ineffective team.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Your firm belief that security is efficient at self-policing and avoidance of its horrific PR and reputation reinforce my reasoning for why this role needs to exist.

[Guest]

Your firm belief that security is efficient at self-policing and avoidance of its horrific PR and reputation reinforce my reasoning for why this role needs to exist.

 

Have you ever stopped to think that the 'horrific PR and reputation' actually needs to be dealt with both ICly and OOCly?

Because you're not immune to the 'horrific PR and reputation of security' that you've described, either, just to make a note of that. And before you call this out as an attack, the point of it is to make note of the fact that everyone in security makes their own mark and legacy in different ways. Even you, bud. So just think on that for a moment.

Your view on that your own interpretation of how you read my posts immediately justifies a need for a lawyer job no one really is going to enjoy or will want to put any effort into the job, is rather silly.

[Susan]

This is literally the worst idea I've read on these forums since porting Bay's wall-piercing 50 caliber traitor instagib sniper rifle.

No.

There is no lore reason for lawyers to exist. There is no logical reason for lawyers to exist. You are not being charged with any crimes at any point on the station at all ever. NanoTrasen does not have the governing authority to sentence, or administer punishment for crimes. They can do so for breaches of their own corporate regulations but that time you called the captain fat goes on your employee record, not your criminal record. Outside of the station when a breach of regulations also coincidentally breaches the law, then you are given a fair trial by the government and that is the point where a lawyer would get involved.

There is no need for lawyers. IA is not neutered. You have deluded yourself into believing they are. At no point whatsoever on the station is your criminal record ever modified as far as the government is concerned and any crime you are sentenced for goes on your employee record. Complain to the IAA department. That's their job. There is literally no need for a college-qualified lawyer to sit on station and chase ambulances or be annoying.

We had lawyers before. We had them for years. No meaningful RP occurred. Nothing outside of annoying LEMME SEE MY CLIENT or repeated ambulance chasing occurred. You don't get a lawyer. You're not being criminally held liable on station. You are being held liable for breaking corporate regulations. The reality is I could brig you for murder on a hunch and be okay with it. Evidence is required for the criminal trial and that is in no way similar to being brigged. Corporate reg violations =/= law violations and vice versa.

[Guest]

Just to reiterate, again.

 

Currently security has no oversight over its powers of the briggings. We have an undeniable trend of hard-asses and assholes in both the officer role and the HoS role. People are being brigged left and right, often for extortionary times. There's little IAA can do, because everyone up to the Captain screams "IAA HAVE NO OVERSIGHT OVER SECURITY STOP INTERFERING ALSO YOU'RE STUPID"

 

Well, yeah. That's called the dick character problem, and that's IC. I don't see why reporting dick characters for being incessant cocks to crewmembers, and relaying that over to IA (whose responsibility is actually employee behavior, not criminal behavior) or even to DOs like you're freaking supposed to is such a problem. You're a DO yourself, what's the issue here?

 

Now, despite the hyperbole, I genuinely think lawyers will provide good RP for prisoners and security while also ensuring (ideally) that brig times are fair.

 

Logically, we all should follow the example of using hyperboles in serious game-changing suggestions because that makes this suggestion much more easy to follow and get onboard with.

 

Lawyers would ensure that security (and, in their secondary role, the station as a whole) are following Corporate Regulations at all times. They ensure that people brigged are brigged for a fair reason, that their time is fair, and ensure that they are released when their time is up. They represent prisoners, and keep the HoS and Warden updated on the influx and outflux of inmates, and generally is the guy in a suit on the side of the prisoners.

 

Prisoners may ask for IAA at any given time if they feel they were unjustly brigged or detained unlawfully or in a manner where unnecessary force was exerted. IAA should not be sitting in the brig, 'ambulance chasing', in the context of the ambulance being security bringing in prisoners. It is also the responsibility of the head of security to ensure their own department is following Corp Regs. Also, this is a corporation. Representation is not guaranteed. I don't care if this sounds immoral or stupid to you, this is how the system works. And it does, actually work. But there are people who make it seem as though it's not working. And those people exist, and you should probably do something about it yourself in IC if you're so goddamn passionate about making security accountable. You forget that individuals play this game from all across the world, with different values and tastes as well as different modus operandis and approaches to things. People are different, and thus there will be incontinuity.

 

If we press further, we could allow perma-brigging matters to have the lawyer defend the prisoner in question during a tribunal if the evidence or reasoning for the permabrigging is very shoddy, but that is perhaps a separate proposal.

 

It is the responsibility of the security force to present evidence against a criminal to warrant permabrigging. You obviously cannot permabrig a murder suspect until it's confirmed there was sufficient enough reason and supporting evidence to suggest they were responsible for the death and if the intent was indeed focused on killing.

 

Lore-wise, this suggestion is valid. Nanotrasen would entirely have a horde of lawyers on retinue from Biesel Legal Services or their standard Corporate Liability Lawyers. Lawyers may, since we never have psychologists, also sign off on cyborgification consent forms or other contracts where liability may be an issue; even sign off on self-testing if an RD is not available, but that is an additional power that is a step above the original desire: Oversight of security for Corporate Regulations.

 

Hah, no they wouldn't. Not unless someone was charged with a High Crime, which is actually participating in criminal activity within the jurisdiction of the Sol Alliance, and NT falls under Sol Alliance law. Medium+level infractions are Sol Law related, btw. In addition, why even waste time and energy on a role that would only serve to disrupt the standard operation of security, best case scenario in the event the security team itself is actually without fault and has amazing judgement? It would slow down the general pace of gameplay for not only security, but for everyone else. There would be constant interruptions and inconsistency with how tasks are knocked out of the park.

tl;dr: Lawyers will not provide any meaningful roleplay nor will they fix security. Using IC to battle OOC is not how you go about this, this has been stated dozens of fucking times and it's unbelievable that this line of thinking has been pursued consistency and unerringly.

[EvilBrage]

["How dare you have an opinion that differs from my own!"]

 

First of all, your hyperbole is ridiculous and makes you look silly.

Second, without any sort of legal sanction, NanoTrasen would not be authorized to do any sort of fining, brigging, or executing. If you want a logical reason for lawyers to exist, consider that there are usually years of appeals before someone can be sentenced to death in a civilized country - a single lawyer to ensure that no one is executed without irrefutable evidence (and let's get real - security can't police itself, what with detectives being hailed as heroes for executing fleeing suspects without anything remotely resembling due process) wouldn't be out of the question.

The rest of your post is sheer speculation based upon an erroneous assumption that what you've said is true.

 

The reality is I could brig you for murder on a hunch and be okay with it. Evidence is required for the criminal trial and that is in no way similar to being brigged.

 

And this is exactly why the security department needs more oversight than it's currently receiving - because people think this is somehow acceptable and fair to others.

That said, is this the right sort of oversight? I'm personally more inclined to give the captain more leeway in regards to sentencing and whatnot. Maybe even grant Internal Affairs to authorize a release if their investigation concludes that not enough evidence exists to keep a crew member in the brig.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Guest

[Guest]

COMMAND STAFF EXISTS AND IT IS FUCKING PATHETIC THAT PEOPLE NEVER STOP TO THINK TO TALK TO THEM.

"Abloo bloo bloo I want security to be more accountable"

Then go to your friendly command staff member and just

Edited June 15, 2015 by Guest

[Susan]

NanoTrasen isn't authorized to do executions, there no longer is an execution room, and I've no idea why people still seem to think that a non-government entity has the authority to perform executions.

Evidently you people don't remember, choose not to remember, or are just too young to this game to recall when we had lawyers, and how utterly useless they were and how the jobslot was always empty. I fail to see how bringing them back will not repeat history. And this was on a heavy roleplay server, mind you.

[EvilBrage]

Forced cyborgification is tantamount to execution (perhaps even slavery) - and those forms certainly do exist. On the contrary, I simply think you're too jaded to realize that things may be different on Aurora than they were for you on Baystation - and worst comes to worst, we have an empty job slot. So what?

Edited June 15, 2015 by Guest