Bring Back The Lawyers

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

During this round that's still on-going, we had an engineer brigged for contraband and vandalism. He hacked a vending machine for syndie-cakes.

My lawyer agreed that the vandalism was completely justified, and spent a bit mildly confused because he never saw the 'contraband'.

Later on it was discovered to be syndie-cakes. Because the Captain was SSD, I contacted Central Command on the issue since the Head of Security herself ordered the arrest. I sent the HoS' statement, and asked if CC defines cakes as being contraband worthy of 15 minutes in the brig. Central Command said that cakes are indeed not worthy of contraband charges, but did not want to seek illegal detainment charges on the HoS, so the matter was settled with a precedent set for the future.

I also managed to convince the Warden + HoS that the prisoner, who was drawing runes everywhere and being a shitlord, didn't need to be perma'd or put in a straight jacket because that wasn't permitted anywhere in corporate regulations. "Unfortunately, we have to release him when his time is up, no matter how annoying he is, because his total time is only 15 minutes."

We did give him a tracking implant at my suggestion.

So as it stands, as a lawyer I have:

- Brought attention to an invalid charge, and successfully voided it.

- Prevented unnecessary (if really desired by sec) additional punishments on someone that weren't permitted by corporate regulations, and instead hitting them with actual punishments allowed within regulations.

[Susan]

That view (being cyborgified = executed) is entirely subjective. However, I don't like there being forced cyborgification, either, and think that also needs to be removed because a company should have no authority to do that to begin with.

All criminal matters should be wholly out of NanoTrasen's hands and they should only make note of non-serious crimes (assault, drug distribution, prostitution) for the authorities or hold high crimes (murder, sabotage, rape) until transfer to police custody.

[Eliot Clef]

During this round that's still on-going, we had an engineer brigged for contraband and vandalism. He hacked a vending machine for syndie-cakes.

 

Security sometimes has a very difficult time with the notion of, "Not normally available in a vending machine" not meaning, "Isn't actually contraband/against the rules."

I don't know why and it drives me insane when I have to explain this to people.

[EvilBrage]

It's not subjective; in order to retrieve someone's brain, you have to kill them - that, or you're killing them in the process of the extraction.

People don't wait for their shift to be over to personally escort a murderer to the local police. Why shouldn't that transfer to police custody be immediate, like a real-life example would show you? Because that's not fun within the context of the game we play. We make concessions from reality to make things more fun for all involved - I still fail to see why the mere suggestion of a lawyer warrants the sort of half-baked outrage you showed us.

 

COMMAND STAFF EXISTS AN-

 

I'm really happy for you, and I'ma let you finish, but half the rounds I witness have no command staff at all, even if security is packed to capacity. Do we simply let the matter lie and hope that security will erupt into civil war at the mere suggestion of injustice? If we have no command staff except the CMO, does that person become the arbiter of justice across the station regardless of the fact that they've rejected the role of "acting captain?"

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

snip

 

Nanotrasen being permitted to execute people is not the subject of this suggestion. This suggestion is in regards to a job who ensures regulations are being followed by members of the security force when they interact with the crew and inmates.

Secondary responsibilities are possible to be general legal advice to staff (command or otherwise) in regards to things like consent forms, self-testing, or being a general middle-man between sec and the crew.

This round has been a wonderful example of good lawyering involvement with security, though I preface this with the reminder that I might be biased because I'm the one playing the lawyer. I'll poke people involved and get their opinion - hopefully posted in this thread.

[Guest]

1 round = valid data admissable in any argumentative setting

And yes, you are biased.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

1 round = valid data admissable in any argumentative setting

 

We have to start somewhere.

[Guest]

1 round = valid data admissable in any argumentative setting

 

We have to start somewhere.

 

My advice is to keep going, then. Keep pushing for attempting whatever you're doing, and if it works consistently, then I'll retract my previous statements.

However, I would also suggest you change up the variables a bit. Get different people to volunteer for lawyer.

[Guest]

Actually, this is sort of ironic. This is the exact same issue we had with blueshields.

This is gonna be a role that's going to be heavily moderated, even if it gets accepted. There's so much room to actually destroy a round for the entirety of security.

I would also recommend this role be immune from antag-rolling, as well, assuming the data actually convinces me to make me believe it's any good, because it's likely going to be a fuckfest if anyone does it right, and that's really not fun for anyone.

[EvilBrage]

Difference is in the armaments - blueshields typically have guns, while lawyers have pens and tricky legal wording.

[Guest]

Difference is in the armaments - blueshields typically have guns, while lawyers have pens and tricky legal wording.

 

They still both have room for heavy abuse/fuckups and can just as easily ruin the round to a much more damaging effect than most other jobs that require more effort to do so.

You're still right, of course.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

.... A lawyer with claims of abuse from sec has to go:

To the HoS. If this fails:

To the Captain. If this fails:

To CC.

A blueshield just has to unholster his gun and open fire long enough to do damage before getting winded.

It would be very hard for a lawyer to fuck over an entire round unless we're giving them all-access unquestionable authority and an "OBJECTION" stamp that insta-gibs security officers.

[Guest]

of which i have no qualms of said stamp existing

I've more concerns about lawyers not really respecting their outlined SOP and doing fuck all

[witchbells]

of which i have no qualms of said stamp existing

I've more concerns about lawyers not really respecting their outlined SOP and doing fuck all

 

That's why duty officers exist!

If you think lawyers are disrespecting protocol or neglecting their duty, you should absolutely report it to their superior, and if that doesn't work, make an incident report.

[Erik Tiber]

I think this is a great idea, Jackboot. No clue over the name or whatever, but honestly, I don't care. A character whose entire job is to oversee sec? That sounds great. Obviously the current situation is sub-optimal given the raging shitnado which periodically rips through the station, so clearly some sort of change is needed. If the IAA aren't doing this job, and sec isn't self policing, I don't see why everything would magically and spontaneously change for the better without some outside interference.

May as well give it a shot. It seems like the sort of role that would exist. Maybe have their introduction be an IC event or whatever, I dunno.

[Johnny Mnemonic]

Actually, this is sort of ironic. This is the exact same issue we had with blueshields.

This is gonna be a role that's going to be heavily moderated, even if it gets accepted. There's so much room to actually destroy a round for the entirety of security.

I would also recommend this role be immune from antag-rolling, as well, assuming the data actually convinces me to make me believe it's any good, because it's likely going to be a fuckfest if anyone does it right, and that's really not fun for anyone.

oh no, now you'll have to have a justification and evidence to support brigging someone. HOW HORRIFYING. how is that remotely the same as Blueshields? not only is the original lawyer purpose still there, but it's also not gonna need much moderation as JB even said that it's totally possibl to RP a stupid lawyer.

Personally, i wish IAA could do this, but they clearly cannot, i have been shat on a lot of times /from HoS's/ about "meddling in security matters". A lot of people think like Delta, in a way where "IAA are only there for civilian complaints". This is plain false, but people get really, /really/ angry regardless. So yes, i'm in full support of lawyers, but if we have lawyers, what are IAA gonna do? isn't that also their job? and if lawyers get CC access, can't they do complaints? will lawyers be an IAA alternative title? nevermind, i can't into reading

 

The reality is I could brig you for murder on a hunch and be okay with it. Evidence is required for the criminal trial and that is in no way similar to being brigged. Corporate reg violations =/= law violations and vice versa.

no, the reality is you really can't and shouldn't and if you did you should probably feel bad about it OOC'ly. that's not even borderline being shitcurity, Brigging people on hunches without evidence is just a really dick move that shouldn't be the norm by any means. If you can't justify why someone broke the corporate regulations, then you're breaking regulations by illegal brigging anyway, no?

Edited June 15, 2015 by Guest

[Guest]

I find it extremely entertaining how the faintest mention of Mall cops causes every security regular to lose their shit and go on a rant about real policemen, but when we suggest including layers - an integral part of the real life justice system, everyone suddenly agrees security aren't policemen, but rather mallcops who don't need any lawyers.

Now then, these lawyers are going to get ignored or brigged. Or, possibly tortured/beaten by the brig's "asshole" officers. There's essentialy nothing they can do to improve security's current state of being because they don't have the guns to do it. Their existence relies on security not ridiculously rules lawyering their way out of everything and beating them if they're too annoying (Which they will do).

I am going to construct a hypothetical scenario to illustrate my point better.

[Example remove by administration]

Like, seriously. Are we going to pretend any zealous IAA/Lawyer isn't just going to get himself harmbatoned/validbrigged/tortured by people who play edgy characters with a lot of OOC cred? Because they will be.

I mean - I have had Security try to storm the bridge and arrest me as the acting captain because I criticized them for arresting the RD and because I messaged central command and had them send me an official permission to become the acting head of security (A sec officer tabled me and stole the official permission by the way).

There is no hierarchy here, there is no SOP for security to uphold, there's only the fact that a small clique of security regulars spawn with more guns than anyone else on station, and thus see fit to have their characters 'deal the law' in their own odd obsessive way, adjusting sentences based on character popularity.

You could add this lawyer fellow, he can run around and pretend he's useful but if the newbie bald security officers don't robust him for asking questions, then the security regulars themselves will.

So, I doubt this Lawyer would solve any of security's problems. He will, however make a splendid punching bag.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

They will be liaisons from Biesel Legal Services, employed by the Biesel government, to ensure Nanotrasen is upholding the required regulations in Biesel space. IE our corporate regs.

This justifies their existence, gives them that necessary government body to report to for DE LAW, and implies corporate regs are different in different system, which all fits together nicely.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

snip

 

Beating a lawyer with valid complaints as non-antag sec is a good way to see the Duty Officers ban that officer from being 100 tiles near the security department. Or an OOC admin bwoink.

[Guest]

oh no, now you'll have to have a justification and evidence to support brigging someone. HOW HORRIFYING. how is that remotely the same as Blueshields? not only is the original lawyer purpose still there, but it's also not gonna need much moderation as JB even said that it's totally possibl to RP a stupid lawyer.

Personally, i wish IAA could do this, but they clearly cannot, i have been shat on a lot of times /from HoS's/ about "meddling in security matters". A lot of people think like Delta, in a way where "IAA are only there for civilian complaints". This is plain false, but people get really, /really/ angry regardless. So yes, i'm in full support of lawyers, but if we have lawyers, what are IAA gonna do? isn't that also their job? and if lawyers get CC access, can't they do complaints? will lawyers be an IAA alternative title?

 

Except the entire point of arresting someone is that you need justification and evidence to support brigging someone. You're a bad officer if you don't have either and you arrest without reasonable suspicion or evidence. You're also failing to do your OOC job and basically being a dick. Why do we need lawyers to regulate shitcurity, dare I ask?

A more reasonable solution would be to adjust the IAA's power to an extent.

[Guest]

Okay. Lets fucking clarify a few things. As Inside Out Starfish pointed out, the definition of security change according to circumstance. So, let's start, correct me if I'm wrong:

 

2. NT is a corporation. Corporations exist to make money, thus, it is in NT's interest to make sure crew is being productive and safe, aka, people aren't spending time in cells if it is not needed, but working.
   

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4. NT is obligated to report any criminal activity to whichever government they fall under. However, being an ambiguous and unscrupulous corporation, they may decide not to do so and attempt to bury stuff.
   

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6. NT's Internal Security are defined as highly trained mall caps, because, after all, they work on a high security research station, thus possess skill that above an average security personnel that guard banks, malls and even police officers. THEY WORK FOR NANOTRESEN, NOT SOL ALLIANCE. This means that they expected to do whatever they tell you within bounds of law.
   

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8. Stuff concerning work regulations such as, but not exclusivelly, Neglect of Duty, Traspassing, Hooliganism, Misuse of Comms, Breaching Official Power (unless its something not allowed by Law) and other, DO NOT FALL UNDER LAW. These are things that are left to interpretation and can be pardoned. They should, technically be the area which HoP deals with, security is just there to make sure things don't escalate.
   

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10. Stuff like Murder, Assault, Sexaul Harassment, Theft and other FALL UNDER KEEPING THE LAW. These cannot be pardoned, as they are ACTUAL CRIMES and need security intervention. This is the moment I interject and say the whole idea of brig time being a substitute for actual prison is laughable. You are not actually doing justice by giving 20 minutes for taking someone's eyes out. Security is obligated to leave these criminals alive if possible and bring them to proper authorities (not exactly sure how this involves cloning, a general concensus was clone-all).
    

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12. Security is allowed to hurt ONLY in defense of themselves OR the station. Defend the station part is NOT left to their own judgement, unless there is no suitable command personnel to make the decision. This means you do not shoot people who attempt to run away unless given command. You're free to shoot and hurt if they are a direct danger to yourself.
    

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14. Stun weapons, which don't create permanent damage, are still weapons, but are free to be used to extent needed. However, they cause pain and are very unpleasant thing to go through. Officers who use them too liberally, AKA, for no reason (shouting over comms is never a good reason to put someone through massive pain by liberal use of stun baton), are doing Excessive Use of Force. Harmbaton is not allowed, unless out of charge and is needed in self-defense, as above mentioned example.

 

Is there anything I missed?

With all that in mind, I think we don't really need a Lawyer, since there are no proper legal authorites on station. It's already assumed that IAA are trained at least unformally as lawyers. It is their job to make sure Security isn't breaking the ACTUAL LAW by beating prisoners and make sure they aren't wasting company resources by making up excessive charges, thus keeping people from working. It's also both IAA's and HoS's job to make sure that SUFFICIENT EVIDENCE is collected to allow PROPER AUTHORITES to convict the criminal legally.

So when, a Lawyer/IAA asks you for evidence and you say this:

You don't get a lawyer. You're not being criminally held liable on station. You are being held liable for breaking corporate regulations. The reality is I could brig you for murder on a hunch and be okay with it. Evidence is required for the criminal trial and that is in no way similar to being brigged. Corporate reg violations =/= law violations and vice versa.

They's actually asking you:

"What evidence do you have before you:

2. Ruin the person's reputation.
4. Give him an actual trial that will use up money and time.
6. Get him fired.

"

Overall, ruin the person's entire life. Officers are held accountable for things they do and say, as any other person and employee. So, brigging someone on a hunch is at the very least Slander. This will get you sued and fired.

This was all from IC perspective.

From OOC perspective, yes, we need a Lawyer-type person for these above reason. However, I suggest we just get IAA whitelisted and restructure the role. As Delta said.

[Susan]

You literally can just give IAA the oversight to question security arrests (instead of the weird 'no you can't do that, I don't know who decided IAA shouldn't be able to investigate improper brigging by sec). I do not see the need for a new job for something IAA should be able to do.

[Johnny Mnemonic]

This originated from a thread about whitelisting IAA and making them less horrible to play. And yea, IAA /can/ do all these things, except if they're proactive then people lose their shit pretty fast, especially HoS and general security members with saying "IAA shouldn't involve themselves into security matters". Hell even Delta, a regular, stated that IAA shouldn't involve themselves in criminal matters, when that's not completely true, improperly brigged and faxing security related reports to central is still part of the job(such as crimes or performance).

I personally see this as JB trying to make IAA not shit by doing something other then whitelisting them, which is perfectly fine, but i still wish they were anyway

[josh1133]

Security is a private security force, I would gladly love to see Lawyers involved, but don't bring my character in as some edge lord shit sec as a example and using him as the only one because you didn't like him or me. Don't use my character again, especially when you know nothing about him and have never interacted with him more then him arresting you or a friend of yours.

[Guest]

This originated from a thread about whitelisting IAA and making them less horrible to play. And yea, IAA /can/ do all these things, except if they're proactive then people lose their shit pretty fast, especially HoS and general security members with saying "IAA shouldn't involve themselves into security matters". Hell even Delta, a regular, stated that IAA shouldn't involve themselves in criminal matters, when that's not completely true, improperly brigged and faxing security related reports to central is still part of the job(such as crimes or performance).

I personally see this as JB trying to make IAA not shit by doing something other then whitelisting them, which is perfectly fine, but i still wish they were anyway

 

I stated what their current limitations were, in that they currently cannot (not should not, mind ya) officially question the arrest or bring it into review.

I didn't say that shouldn't be so.