How are IPC's OP?

[Eliot Clef]

Also, for Lore reasons... as I feel they really make humans and borgs pretty much obsolete. Fully sentient, roaming, super artificial intelligence androids are pretty crazy high tech... with the shells, you're talking about Data from Star Trek, and this universe isn't that high tech.

 

You are correct, given enough time a sufficiently intelligent population of sapient robots would make humans obsolete. This is a major problem we have with the IRL possibility of AI development, and a burgeoning truth in-universe. People are scared about robots replacing jobs that aren't merely menial labor anymore.

With regards to this universe not being that high tech, you're simply incorrect. This was made a part of Aurora's lore some small while ago now. We have full-conversion cyborgs like Motoko Kusanagi and Data-esque androids.

The Skrell had them first and discontinued production as a result of exactly the problems you're suggesting are kind of the case now. They're just waiting for the situation to blow up with humans like it did with them.

I don't disbelieve you when you say, 'I think stripping these out would be better for the game.', but I do think it's significantly self-centered based on your immediate experiences, and ultimately more detrimental to a large number of players than it is helpful.

This is normal. I'm not saying you're wrong to feel this way. I am saying that it tints your desires, just as my playing IPCs tints my desires. But my desire doesn't excise a large portion of the playerbase's favored character type to make things easier on a minority of active players (antags).

In this regard, further debate is largely pointless. You're pretty much set in your ways, and I'm set in mine.

[JKJudgeX]

The problem is, people like Data, and they like Major Motoko Kusanagi as well. So they'd like to play as them, or as analogues. Are you going to tell them they can't because there's already four of them on the station and five of them hurts your verisimilitude? I think they'd be well within their rights to tell you to go shove it if you tried it.

As for it not being believable within the context of the Aurora universe, that argument doesn't really work. SS13 has no consistent tech level at all. It's all over the place in terms of how effective it's technology is and how it works. Some of it is ludicrously advanced while other bits are worse then it was in the 1940's. Appeals to realism or consistency aren't particularly compelling when talking about SS13.

 

I like Data and Motoko Kusanagi, too. Quite a bit. That doesn't mean that I should get to play them in Space Station 13 at everyone else's expense when I show up with their super-abilities. There's nothing wrong with IPC's as a model for a character, or being synthetic for RP reasons. I enjoy that as a possibility myself... but the way that it is delivered with the IPC is just sucky and OP. I'd have no problem if there were more drawbacks and limitations to IPCs.

Appeals to realism and consistency are constantly thrown in people's face in this game when they RP something a way that someone else doesn't like or think is consistent. That's every day. I get to have my input as well, and I prefer the game having a lower tech threshold that makes sending humans to research stations a sensible thing to do, since my characters are important, too, and someone making my characters pretty much obsolete sucks to me way worse than someone making your characters closer to normal should suck to you.

[JKJudgeX]

The problem is, people like Data, and they like Major Motoko Kusanagi as well. So they'd like to play as them, or as analogues. Are you going to tell them they can't because there's already four of them on the station and five of them hurts your verisimilitude? I think they'd be well within their rights to tell you to go shove it if you tried it.

As for it not being believable within the context of the Aurora universe, that argument doesn't really work. SS13 has no consistent tech level at all. It's all over the place in terms of how effective it's technology is and how it works. Some of it is ludicrously advanced while other bits are worse then it was in the 1940's. Appeals to realism or consistency aren't particularly compelling when talking about SS13.

 

I like Data and Motoko Kusanagi, too. Quite a bit. That doesn't mean that I should get to play them in Space Station 13 at everyone else's expense when I show up with their super-abilities. There's nothing wrong with IPC's as a model for a character, or being synthetic for RP reasons. I enjoy that as a possibility myself... but the way that it is delivered with the IPC is just sucky and OP. I'd have no problem if there were more drawbacks and limitations to IPCs.

Appeals to realism and consistency are constantly thrown in people's face in this game when they RP something a way that someone else doesn't like or think is consistent. That's every day. I get to have my input as well, and I prefer the game having a lower tech threshold that makes sending humans to research stations a sensible thing to do, since my characters are important, too, and someone making my characters pretty much obsolete sucks to me way worse than someone making your characters closer to normal should suck to you.

[JKJudgeX]

Also, for Lore reasons... as I feel they really make humans and borgs pretty much obsolete. Fully sentient, roaming, super artificial intelligence androids are pretty crazy high tech... with the shells, you're talking about Data from Star Trek, and this universe isn't that high tech.

 

You are correct, given enough time a sufficiently intelligent population of sapient robots would make humans obsolete. This is a major problem we have with the IRL possibility of AI development, and a burgeoning truth in-universe. People are scared about robots replacing jobs that aren't merely menial labor anymore.

With regards to this universe not being that high tech, you're simply incorrect. This was made a part of Aurora's lore some small while ago now. We have full-conversion cyborgs like Motoko Kusanagi and Data-esque androids.

The Skrell had them first and discontinued production as a result of exactly the problems you're suggesting are kind of the case now. They're just waiting for the situation to blow up with humans like it did with them.

I don't disbelieve you when you say, 'I think stripping these out would be better for the game.', but I do think it's significantly self-centered based on your immediate experiences, and ultimately more detrimental to a large number of players than it is helpful.

This is normal. I'm not saying you're wrong to feel this way. I am saying that it tints your desires, just as my playing IPCs tints my desires. But my desire doesn't excise a large portion of the playerbase's favored character type to make things easier on a minority of active players (antags).

In this regard, further debate is largely pointless. You're pretty much set in your ways, and I'm set in mine.

 

I think you're just exhibiting emotional attachment to the race. SS13 was fine before IPCs. It worked well, it was great, the gameplay was fun a little bit more often in my opinion.

I'm not saying it's ruined because of IPCs, but I'm saying with the implementation on Aurora, it's really taken a dip. Why do you think someone made this thread? Why do you think there are threads like this all the time?

My statement was saying that as they are currently implemented, I'd prefer them be gone completely. I'm totally cool with them staying to be RP'ed as... with much closer to normal attributes and vulnerabilities. Too powergamey.

[JKJudgeX]

Also, for Lore reasons... as I feel they really make humans and borgs pretty much obsolete. Fully sentient, roaming, super artificial intelligence androids are pretty crazy high tech... with the shells, you're talking about Data from Star Trek, and this universe isn't that high tech.

 

You are correct, given enough time a sufficiently intelligent population of sapient robots would make humans obsolete. This is a major problem we have with the IRL possibility of AI development, and a burgeoning truth in-universe. People are scared about robots replacing jobs that aren't merely menial labor anymore.

With regards to this universe not being that high tech, you're simply incorrect. This was made a part of Aurora's lore some small while ago now. We have full-conversion cyborgs like Motoko Kusanagi and Data-esque androids.

The Skrell had them first and discontinued production as a result of exactly the problems you're suggesting are kind of the case now. They're just waiting for the situation to blow up with humans like it did with them.

I don't disbelieve you when you say, 'I think stripping these out would be better for the game.', but I do think it's significantly self-centered based on your immediate experiences, and ultimately more detrimental to a large number of players than it is helpful.

This is normal. I'm not saying you're wrong to feel this way. I am saying that it tints your desires, just as my playing IPCs tints my desires. But my desire doesn't excise a large portion of the playerbase's favored character type to make things easier on a minority of active players (antags).

In this regard, further debate is largely pointless. You're pretty much set in your ways, and I'm set in mine.

 

I think you're just exhibiting emotional attachment to the race. SS13 was fine before IPCs. It worked well, it was great, the gameplay was fun a little bit more often in my opinion.

I'm not saying it's ruined because of IPCs, but I'm saying with the implementation on Aurora, it's really taken a dip. Why do you think someone made this thread? Why do you think there are threads like this all the time?

My statement was saying that as they are currently implemented, I'd prefer them be gone completely. I'm totally cool with them staying to be RP'ed as... with much closer to normal attributes and vulnerabilities. Too powergamey.

[Jboy2000000]

Can we compare IPC's to Diona for a minute? Heres how they stack up. Diona have all the advantages, minus the brute reduction, and then some. What is the disadvantage of Diona? They walk slow, and thats it. Diona also have the power to walk into space completely naked if they wanted, and they'd have no problem at all. Meanwhile, IPC overheat, die and blowup in a vacuum, dying a whole hell of a lot faster than any other species, get murder-killed easily by EMP's, which can double as an infiltration tool as well as a weapon, and can't repair themselves, except with a very limited resource, limited to a select few people, and if thats gone/not available, you're stuck relying on scientists, which already rely on someone else to supply them with the things they need, so they can't be supplied by who they need, miners, you're not going to be supplied by them.

So, stacking up, Diona are far more overpowered than IPC's, but no ever complains about the houseplant walking in space without a suit.

[Jboy2000000]

Can we compare IPC's to Diona for a minute? Heres how they stack up. Diona have all the advantages, minus the brute reduction, and then some. What is the disadvantage of Diona? They walk slow, and thats it. Diona also have the power to walk into space completely naked if they wanted, and they'd have no problem at all. Meanwhile, IPC overheat, die and blowup in a vacuum, dying a whole hell of a lot faster than any other species, get murder-killed easily by EMP's, which can double as an infiltration tool as well as a weapon, and can't repair themselves, except with a very limited resource, limited to a select few people, and if thats gone/not available, you're stuck relying on scientists, which already rely on someone else to supply them with the things they need, so they can't be supplied by who they need, miners, you're not going to be supplied by them.

So, stacking up, Diona are far more overpowered than IPC's, but no ever complains about the houseplant walking in space without a suit.

[Frances]

can't repair themselves, except with a very limited resource, limited to a select few people

Do you mean the welders and wires readily available in primary tool storage?

Anyway, the reason why no one complains about Dionas being OP is exactly because of how slow they are. If a Diona ever tried to kill you you could casually stroll away from them, though I'd like to know how you even managed to convince a Diona to engage in a fight with your person.

So, try fighting someone while being stuck at walk speed and give me a report of how it went.

[Frances]

can't repair themselves, except with a very limited resource, limited to a select few people

Do you mean the welders and wires readily available in primary tool storage?

Anyway, the reason why no one complains about Dionas being OP is exactly because of how slow they are. If a Diona ever tried to kill you you could casually stroll away from them, though I'd like to know how you even managed to convince a Diona to engage in a fight with your person.

So, try fighting someone while being stuck at walk speed and give me a report of how it went.

[Jboy2000000]

IPC's can't repair themselves with welders and wires, they need to use Nanopaste.

[Jboy2000000]

IPC's can't repair themselves with welders and wires, they need to use Nanopaste.

[LordFowl]

If a Diona ever wanted to win in a combat, all it needs is a hyperzine injection. That's about it.

[LordFowl]

If a Diona ever wanted to win in a combat, all it needs is a hyperzine injection. That's about it.

[Eliot Clef]

I think you're just exhibiting emotional attachment to the race. SS13 was fine before IPCs.

 

I've admitted this. More than once. I think this'll be the third time, in fact. But I think you're exhibiting an emotional overreaction to losing, with a far more destructive end intent.

SS13 was fine after IPCs. It's only since they've gotten a little bit more popular on Aurora and expanded the group that uses them into Shells that people started complaining about them.

[Eliot Clef]

I think you're just exhibiting emotional attachment to the race. SS13 was fine before IPCs.

 

I've admitted this. More than once. I think this'll be the third time, in fact. But I think you're exhibiting an emotional overreaction to losing, with a far more destructive end intent.

SS13 was fine after IPCs. It's only since they've gotten a little bit more popular on Aurora and expanded the group that uses them into Shells that people started complaining about them.

[Frances]

IPC's can't repair themselves with welders and wires, they need to use Nanopaste.

Oh, well, yeah, solo IPC antags don't necessarily have it easy.

Non-antag IPCs, however, don't have to particularly care about healing any more than your regular human (and in fact, can't go into crit and die, which is pretty neat.)

Can we just, though, if we're gonna argue about damage and healing. Okay. Any amount of substantial damage will require treatment. As a plebe/human, you can't treat your own broken bones. You need to get into medbay (and good luck breaking in if you don't have access) to get supplies to treat anything major. If you get fucked up in a fight, you most likely won't be able to heal yourself for more than cuts and bruises. So I don't really think IPCs are even that different on that aspect, or that the "can't repair themselves" really matters other than as a minor annoyance when your run-of-the-mill non-antag completely legitimate IPC gets injured randomly and has to visit the roboticist.

[Frances]

IPC's can't repair themselves with welders and wires, they need to use Nanopaste.

Oh, well, yeah, solo IPC antags don't necessarily have it easy.

Non-antag IPCs, however, don't have to particularly care about healing any more than your regular human (and in fact, can't go into crit and die, which is pretty neat.)

Can we just, though, if we're gonna argue about damage and healing. Okay. Any amount of substantial damage will require treatment. As a plebe/human, you can't treat your own broken bones. You need to get into medbay (and good luck breaking in if you don't have access) to get supplies to treat anything major. If you get fucked up in a fight, you most likely won't be able to heal yourself for more than cuts and bruises. So I don't really think IPCs are even that different on that aspect, or that the "can't repair themselves" really matters other than as a minor annoyance when your run-of-the-mill non-antag completely legitimate IPC gets injured randomly and has to visit the roboticist.

[Skull132]

The "can't heal themselves" shite is actually a really small drawback, if even one, considering that IPCs have 200 effective hitpoints, where as humans have roughly 100 (the point at which they pass out and are ineffective).

Also, throwing an entire species out the window because of compounded balancing issues seems like a silly point to try and push. It is literally a waste of everyone's time (from the coders, to the whitelist applicants, to the whitelist review-staff, to the lore team).

Now, if you note the word "compounded". IPCs have immunities, all of which are separate, all of which can be chipped away at one element at a time until a desirable end goal - a balanced race - is reached. Where to start? I have two approaches to propose. Either chip away at the small buffs, such as flash immunity, brute damage modifier, while leaving the major one (halloss immunity) into play. Or we take away the major one, and make them vulnerable to tasers, while leaving the smaller buffs in place.

Thoughts?

[Skull132]

The "can't heal themselves" shite is actually a really small drawback, if even one, considering that IPCs have 200 effective hitpoints, where as humans have roughly 100 (the point at which they pass out and are ineffective).

Also, throwing an entire species out the window because of compounded balancing issues seems like a silly point to try and push. It is literally a waste of everyone's time (from the coders, to the whitelist applicants, to the whitelist review-staff, to the lore team).

Now, if you note the word "compounded". IPCs have immunities, all of which are separate, all of which can be chipped away at one element at a time until a desirable end goal - a balanced race - is reached. Where to start? I have two approaches to propose. Either chip away at the small buffs, such as flash immunity, brute damage modifier, while leaving the major one (halloss immunity) into play. Or we take away the major one, and make them vulnerable to tasers, while leaving the smaller buffs in place.

Thoughts?

[Frances]

Either chip away at the small buffs, such as flash immunity, brute damage modifier, while leaving the major one (halloss immunity) into play. Or we take away the major one, and make them vulnerable to tasers, while leaving the smaller buffs in place.

From a design standpoint, it's better to have strengths and weaknesses be obvious elements to the player. We might be better off taking away some of the small obscure buffs, while leaving obvious and easy to learn ones (you can't tase robots).

[Frances]

Either chip away at the small buffs, such as flash immunity, brute damage modifier, while leaving the major one (halloss immunity) into play. Or we take away the major one, and make them vulnerable to tasers, while leaving the smaller buffs in place.

From a design standpoint, it's better to have strengths and weaknesses be obvious elements to the player. We might be better off taking away some of the small obscure buffs, while leaving obvious and easy to learn ones (you can't tase robots).

[JKJudgeX]

I think you're just exhibiting emotional attachment to the race. SS13 was fine before IPCs.

 

I've admitted this. More than once. I think this'll be the third time, in fact. But I think you're exhibiting an emotional overreaction to losing, with a far more destructive end intent.

SS13 was fine after IPCs. It's only since they've gotten a little bit more popular on Aurora and expanded the group that uses them into Shells that people started complaining about them.

 

I don't have any destructive end intent. I want the game to be balanced between players in terms of power levels of their characters to some reasonable degree.

I just don't feel like IPCs belong. I think it's a little "high fantasy" for me. You know how in D&D sometimes you have the DM who lets everyone make vampires, werewolves, and dragon men, and gives out high level magic items and spells like candy? That's fun for SOME players... but it ruins the game for many others. "My Half-Orc, Half-Troll regenerates the damage and retaliates, swinging his dual two handed swords with one hand each using his innate monkey grip racial ability, yeah!" ... "I roll d20 to swing my longsword." It's not that it isn't fun because you dislike half-orc, half-trolls... it's that now suddenly your character is very dry and weak by comparison, and you begin to think things like... "Wow, this party would be better off if it were entirely comprised of Half-Orc, Half-Trolls." and then the quality of the universe comes into question, and soon after you're thinking, "Man, this D&D game would have been a lot better with that other DM, who very rarely lets anyone make special race characters and always makes them pay a fair and crippling price for the privilege."

I feel like IPCs are just that, and the game would be better if they were toned way down. Yes, I want you to be able to play your character and go through all the motions of pretending to be Lt. Cmdr. Data. Go ahead. I'm really not sure why that means you need to have a character that's easily 2 or 3 times more innately robust than everyone else. If you can't grasp that, and it doesn't make sense to you, then I'd rather you just play a different character altogether, thus my comment about removing them entirely, because I realize that now they are in, whittling them down to reasonable will be a very, very long process that we'll not see the end of before we all no longer play SS13.

[JKJudgeX]

I think you're just exhibiting emotional attachment to the race. SS13 was fine before IPCs.

 

I've admitted this. More than once. I think this'll be the third time, in fact. But I think you're exhibiting an emotional overreaction to losing, with a far more destructive end intent.

SS13 was fine after IPCs. It's only since they've gotten a little bit more popular on Aurora and expanded the group that uses them into Shells that people started complaining about them.

 

I don't have any destructive end intent. I want the game to be balanced between players in terms of power levels of their characters to some reasonable degree.

I just don't feel like IPCs belong. I think it's a little "high fantasy" for me. You know how in D&D sometimes you have the DM who lets everyone make vampires, werewolves, and dragon men, and gives out high level magic items and spells like candy? That's fun for SOME players... but it ruins the game for many others. "My Half-Orc, Half-Troll regenerates the damage and retaliates, swinging his dual two handed swords with one hand each using his innate monkey grip racial ability, yeah!" ... "I roll d20 to swing my longsword." It's not that it isn't fun because you dislike half-orc, half-trolls... it's that now suddenly your character is very dry and weak by comparison, and you begin to think things like... "Wow, this party would be better off if it were entirely comprised of Half-Orc, Half-Trolls." and then the quality of the universe comes into question, and soon after you're thinking, "Man, this D&D game would have been a lot better with that other DM, who very rarely lets anyone make special race characters and always makes them pay a fair and crippling price for the privilege."

I feel like IPCs are just that, and the game would be better if they were toned way down. Yes, I want you to be able to play your character and go through all the motions of pretending to be Lt. Cmdr. Data. Go ahead. I'm really not sure why that means you need to have a character that's easily 2 or 3 times more innately robust than everyone else. If you can't grasp that, and it doesn't make sense to you, then I'd rather you just play a different character altogether, thus my comment about removing them entirely, because I realize that now they are in, whittling them down to reasonable will be a very, very long process that we'll not see the end of before we all no longer play SS13.

[Skull132]

[...] thus my comment about removing them entirely, because I realize that now they are in, whittling them down to reasonable will be a very, very long process that we'll not see the end of before we all no longer play SS13.

 

You'd be surprised at how aggressively coders can move if they want to. You linger on a personally fueled argument while glancing over what I proposed, which is neat, but not productive towards a reasonable end goal.

The two initial changes that I outlined are super simple to implement, and I'm of mind to do it once I finish some major moving for another code project.

[Skull132]

[...] thus my comment about removing them entirely, because I realize that now they are in, whittling them down to reasonable will be a very, very long process that we'll not see the end of before we all no longer play SS13.

 

You'd be surprised at how aggressively coders can move if they want to. You linger on a personally fueled argument while glancing over what I proposed, which is neat, but not productive towards a reasonable end goal.

The two initial changes that I outlined are super simple to implement, and I'm of mind to do it once I finish some major moving for another code project.