Antag Standards

[Jboy2000000]

Please note Im only posting this here because of the rule in complaints about "irrelevant information."

 

I don't know why bombing the standard targets of AI, cargo, and armory is part of the complaint. Just because you're bored of it doesn't mean it's not the best way to keep security booted down and give them more freedom to achieve their objectives.

 

So, if you're saying that, is it ok for ANY antag to get toxins bomb from science, and then bomb all of those locations with out having had any other antagonistic interaction with the station/crew? Im sure if a traitor or Vox did anything like this, they'd get complaints aplenty, and probably end up antag banned, so why are Nuke Ops any different at all? They're way more overpowered than other antags, if anything, shouldn't they be held to higher standards than what they are? Why is "bomb three places, kill, win" alright? Its not fun, and isn't it insanely metagamey to know instantly how, where and when to bomb these three precise location so you can have the best chances?

[Conservatron]

that topic was specifically related to nuke-ops

in the shceme of things, if nukeops are going loud (and they basically always have to because ultra-vigilant security during nukeops will never let them go quiet unless its a peaceops gimmick) then they are all but required to neutralize the AI and security, then cargo

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

These are [syndicate/whatever] Operatives that are highly trained (snrk) and are targeting a secure Nanotrasen Research Station for various reasons.

I think any Spec Ops team worth its salt would have some, you know, basic intel on their target.

The armory is the most basic place to hit because it's full of lethal guns. Like?????? "No go ahead man who wants to kill me, waltz into the armory and get your lethal weapons because fair game is important to us grizzled and amoral mercenaries! Now let us line up and take turns shooting at each other, I say!"

The AI is a huge threat. Try to subvert it, but blow it up if you can't. Because doors bolting around you every 5 seconds is kinda not useful for you to complete your objective.

Cargo would only be a dick move to blow up if 100% of the time security didn't just waltz over and order LWAPS and shotguns the moment the armory was spaced.

What you're asking is that the special operatives intentionally cripple themselves and change their entire playstyle because you're bored.

That's silly.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Marlon Phoenix

[Jboy2000000]

If thats the point you want to make, why don't Nuke Ops just bust the window into the captain office, steal the disk right away, and then win instantly? Like you said, they're operatives worth their salt, and the enjoyment of the crew and players are less important than tactics.

[Frances]

The reason why nuke ops bomb the armory/cargo/AI is exactly so they can roleplay. Without it it's really easy for security and the crew to just shoot them down, which tends to result in even less interesting situations.

What they do actually ensures roleplay can happen. What you just suggested doesn't. What do you think?

[Jboy2000000]

When was the last time you saw a Nuke Op RPing? Because Ive certainly never seen it happen, and it certainly didn't happen in the complaint I pulled Jackboot's message from. They did that just to cripple security so they could rampage.

[Skull132]

If thats the point you want to make, why don't Nuke Ops just bust the window into the captain office, steal the disk right away, and then win instantly? Like you said, they're operatives worth their salt, and the enjoyment of the crew and players are less important than tactics.

 

Fallacy in logic. You presume that they do these things to win. Do not presume: assumptions and presumptions are the mother of failure.

But let's look at all three targets, and break down what happens if you don't deal with them:

• AI & Borgs -- The AI is an omnipotent being that can stop you dead in your tracks, if it's good enough. You can hold a person from hacking a door for an eternity, you can constantly report their position, you can kill the nuke ops, even. And the nuke ops don't exactly know if they're even being watched. Borgs get a mostly free pass on pain and fear-RP, as such, can just roll up and stun you.
  
• Armed Security -- Once you go loud, you're going to get shot at. If you do not destroy the armoury, or hinder security's capacity to use the equipment there, then you will have a fair firefight on your hands. One of the laws governing any confrontation: never engage in a fair fight, if you can help it. Further, sec has advantages in manpower and by playing on the home field. Both are enormous on SS13, specially in antag v sec encounters, and sustained engagements. From my experience, as a HoS, antagonist, observer, security will win every time you lose initiative of the situation. And it is a heck of a lot easier for them to take it [the initiative] over from you.
• Cargo -- Similar point to armed security. Albeit, I've not really seen cargo get shebanged, but it is still valid.

 

Now, all three provide the crew with tools to actively kill the nuke operatives. The presence and uninhibited operation of all three targets creates a clear and undeniable tactical threat to the nuclear operatives. Even if the nuke ops wanted to RP, instead of just winning, then the threat they would leave in place would most likely force the round to be very violent, and/or very short.

No one will ask the nuke ops if they're up for RP-ing.

No security officer will think twice before stepping into the armoury and arming himself with a laser rifle once an armed, hardsuited intruder is located.

No AI will stop itself from locking down, electrifying doors to fuck with the nuke ops, or stop itself from reporting their positions.

No Captain or Head of Security will lay down their arms and stop their mind from racing for solutions whenever a hostile presence enters their station.

And all of this is fine. Fine, as long as we keep both sides armed to the same degree.

It is not about winning, it is about surviving for long enough to actually make a difference.

[Jboy2000000]

A difference doing what? Shooting at people? Being shot at because you blew half the station to kingdom come? How is this going to help you make any difference beside make the crew infinitely less difficult to kill?

[Skull132]

Can you please stop being a cynic? That's my job.

Here's my question to you. Let's say that I'm a nuke op team leader, and I follow your guidelines of not attacking the obvious targets. How much can I do to provide roleplay to the station if a member of my team dies to the AI having fun with doors, a few more get gunned down by sec, and I am left alone? What can I do towards my end goal of creating roleplay if my entire team dies, and I follow suit, as ERT gets called? What is the point of antagonists, if they are not allowed to create an actual atmosphere, and fear?

[Jboy2000000]

How would the rest of your team had died? If the crew and AI's were actively out to kill you, the team has obviously already had some interaction with the crew. If you tried peaceops, then you already did your job, to a degree, because you at least tried, and that would mean to crew instigated, go nuts. If you were hostile in some other way beside this, then you earned the nails in the coffin. If you tried stealthops and then got caught, well, then you failed doubly so. So, can you answer my question? Beside making the rest of the crew scared and "creating an atmosphere of fear," what RP can be ganered, since all thats going to do is give security a reason to shoot you on sight with whatever weapons they have left?

[Frances]

Well, if your stand is that no current nuke players are able to create any good roleplay, you should probably start by giving a clear example of what you'd like "good" ops to do.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

A difference doing what? Shooting at people? Being shot at because you blew half the station to kingdom come? How is this going to help you make any difference beside make the crew infinitely less difficult to kill?

 

Realistic roleplay and providing roleplay is done by being consistent with the role you chose, and creating possibilities and situations for other characters to have to work through.

Nuclear operatives don't steal the disk and win because we have collectively decided it provides better situations for enjoyment if the round lasts longer than 40 minutes.

You do not demand antagonists act unrealistically in being big baby pussies and do something unique and special for you every single round, especially when there are 40 people against 5 operatives in addition to our extremely lax admin policy on rambo'ing and fear-rp.

These are trained operatives that strip you of your means to defend yourself in the most direct way, and wipe out your security department. Does the roleplay end when that happens?

No. Because when the armory is bombed, cargo is bombed, and security is all dead and complaining in dsay, the round still exists and goes on. There are still avenues of roleplay that were provided.

You can:

1) Officially surrender to the nuke ops. I've seen this happen once, and I initiated it as the only surviving Head. I mean Engitopia ignored it and continued to dismantle the station in a guerrilla war, but it was a thing that happened.

2) Fight back unconventionally. Disabling the PA is kind of dumb because it hurts everyone equally less so than the ops, but I mean you can sneak around and pick them off or whatever?

3) Whisper death threats while hiding in a closet. The "Essel Response" to stressful situations.

4) Join the Ops, since if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. I've never seen this happen. So really the lack of creativity is on the crew.

Basically, the antags are doing what is reasonable and consistent of them to be doing as part of their role. If you were talking about changlings bombing the armory every round, we'd be having a different conversation, because that shit's dumb, yo.

You're demanding a change because you're bored and personally don't like it. Which isn't how policy changes should ever work.

[Jboy2000000]

Im not demanding anything, where have I said that I demand the rules and nuke ops should change? Im saying its an unfun practice, and leads to nothing but an easy way to steam roll over the only force in the entire station that has a snow ball's chance in hell of even hindering you, let alone actually beat them back.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Im not demanding anything, where have I said that I demand the rules and nuke ops should change?

 

 

shouldn't they be held to higher standards than what they are? Why is "bomb three places, kill, win" alright? Its not fun, and isn't it insanely metagamey to know instantly how, where and when to bomb these three precise location so you can have the best chances?

[Skull132]

If you were hostile in some other way beside this, then you earned the nails in the coffin.

 

No. I didn't earn those nails in the coffin, because I took them from the other team's toolbox, and blunted them before they could hammer those nails in. Nuke ops are by definition a hostile armed force. If they want to, and if they can pull it off, should they not be allowed to seize the initiative? You are basically stretching the long "Noooooo, not really". Granted, there are other ways to deal with all of these issues, but they're actually a lot more gankey.

 

Beside making the rest of the crew scared and "creating an atmosphere of fear," what RP can be ganered, since all thats going to do is give security a reason to shoot you on sight with whatever weapons they have left?

 

If I have made the crew scared of me, then half of my meta-objective (provide RP) is already complete. And if sec decides to shoot at us, so be it! Let's fight! That's their choice. I'm going to have an objective, whether it be kidnapping, grand theft, or even just arming the nuke that I'm going to accomplish in the mean time. Mopping up resistance is an aside to that. What you do with those cards is up to you. The entire point of interactive roleplay is to play with a dynamic hand of cards.

"How am I going to survive this?"

"Will I prioritize my survival, or do I want to attack the antags?"

"What the fuck do I do about my friends? Do I help them?!"

Those are just a few questions that having a very clear, very overt antagonist presence creates (or should create) in the heads of other players. There are more, many more. And how they each deal with those questions is roleplay, as is the interaction stemming from the conflicts between those questions. The nuke ops and weak sec are the premise of the round, now it's your turn to actually play the round.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Guest

[CakeIsOssim]

If I may add. If ops are going to repeatedly blow up the AI core and steal the armory's guns, what is the point to playing AI/warden? I certainly wouldn't want to play AI on a nuke round if I just knew I was going to get destroyed wordlessly. I also cerainly wouldn't want to play the warden if my beloved guns were going to be stolen/destroyed. Every. Time.

Someone's response to this might be, "Well, no one said it had to be fair. If you don't like the heat, get out of the kitchen."

Okay, well. The warden part. The warden can do much more than sit around praising his or her guns, and grieving them when they're lost. That's fine. What about the AI? They've got two choices. Kill it, or steal it. Either way, the AI can't do much. Where's the fun in playing AI on nuke if you're just going to be taken out of it thirty minutes into the round? I understand the AI is a powerful weapon and ally, depending on which side it's on. But, there's got to be another way. Why should the AI be the cannon fodder to alert the whole crew whenever they're being attacked/destroyed? Again, there's got to be another way.

[Jboy2000000]

Im not demanding anything, where have I said that I demand the rules and nuke ops should change?

 

 

shouldn't they be held to higher standards than what they are? Why is "bomb three places, kill, win" alright? Its not fun, and isn't it insanely metagamey to know instantly how, where and when to bomb these three precise location so you can have the best chances?

 

I asked a question, since when is asking a question demanding anything?

*Edit* Oh, look, Cake asked a question while I was writing this. Jackboot, is he demanding that Nuke ops find a different way to deal with AI's?

Edited October 14, 2015 by Guest

[Skull132]

What about the AI? They've got two choices. Kill it, or steal it. Either way, the AI can't do much. Where's the fun in playing AI on nuke if you're just going to be taken out of it thirty minutes into the round? I understand the AI is a powerful weapon and ally, depending on which side it's on. But, there's got to be another way. Why should the AI be the cannon fodder to alert the whole crew whenever they're being attacked/destroyed? Again, there's got to be another way.

 

There is a third choice, but the sum total of going that route can end in more complaining and bitching. And there's also a fourth, which will end in the least amount of bitching and moaning -- completely ignoring it.

The thing is, though, every role on station might as well have an unstated "bounty" written on it. It is ignorant to claim otherwise. The way I personally see it, you accept to wear that bounty if you sign up as the role, and you accept the consequences of wearing it.

[Frances]

Okay, well. The warden part. The warden can do much more than sit around praising his or her guns, and grieving them when they're lost. That's fine. What about the AI? They've got two choices. Kill it, or steal it. Either way, the AI can't do much. Where's the fun in playing AI on nuke if you're just going to be taken out of it thirty minutes into the round? I understand the AI is a powerful weapon and ally, depending on which side it's on. But, there's got to be another way. Why should the AI be the cannon fodder to alert the whole crew whenever they're being attacked/destroyed? Again, there's got to be another way.

The thing is we've got two choices. Either the AI gets the power to reveal all nuke ops, constantly give away their position and randomly shock them/lock them inside rooms, or the AI is valid. The AI being valid seems like a much lesser evil to me than having it be protected by plot armor as it mercilessly destroys all efforts of the ops.

Also @jboy, can you tell us what you'd like nuke ops to do, though? I think quite a few people would like to hear your idea of how to change the problems you're presenting.

[Jboy2000000]

Several other people have talked about the other things ops can do, and their various cons. Personally, Id still like to see nuke axed, but thats just me.

[Conservatron]

Several other people have talked about the other things ops can do, and their various cons. Personally, Id still like to see nuke axed, but thats just me.

you realize this is a useless post right?

if you remove nuke, what do you replace it with? Plenty of people really enjoy nuke and wouldn't want it removed. I'm gonna be totally honest, it sounds like you are salty because you got beat by nuke ops and want to neuter them so crew always gets the green text

[Conservatron]

off the top of my head, go the rename route - nuke becomes mercenary, remove the nuke from the shuttle and replace it with something else.

[Jboy2000000]

Ive never been beaten by Nuke ops, the reason I don't like Nuke Ops is because the Ops are the ones going for the green text, not the crew. And the only reason Ops do this, is to get their green text.

[Conservatron]

thats a gross generalization, and my equally useful personal experience is that the crew goes for green text way more than ops, to the extent that they'll willfully ignore hostages and actually encourage ops to kill them. I've seen security literally gun down human shields to kill the redsuits.

[Jboy2000000]

And isn't that the problem with Nuke? No body cares about anything, and every just wants that juicy green text.