Flashbang Balancing

[EvilBrage]

 

Let's take it down a notch; at present, it can stun me for quite a bit from at least seven squares away. We have two options if we want to balance them out:

1. Reduce the range at which the stun takes place.

2. Remove the stun and replace it with deafness and an extended whiteout for your screen, lowering the effects on individuals with eye protection.

[Guest]

They need to be less OP so that Brage can robust better as tator QM. Approved 110%. :^)

[swat43]

how about changing the effect on how close you are to the flashbang the higher the effect of it will become? If you're on top of it, well, you're preety much gona turn white screened and good bye your ears for some time. But the further you are let's say.. starting from five to four tile range it would have medium effect like a two second screen flash or one second.

and then maybe from 5~6 to 8 it has minimum effect. a brief flash on your eyes.

[Killerhurtz]

So basically, replace the coded flashbang behavior with the behavior that flashbangs made from a grenade casing does?

[Guest]

or gtfo out of the flashbang's range, maybe? pick it up and throw it back?

how are flashbangs OP, exactly?

[Frances]

or gtfo out of the flashbang's range, maybe? pick it up and throw it back?

How exactly is one supposed to do this when the flashbang is properly cooked?

I can see Brage's complaint. If you don't know how to use flashbangs, they're nearly useless, but just a little bit of practice leaves you with a very effective, large-AoE stun that basically guarantees a disable proven you can throw the grenade anywhere near your target.

[Susan]

Put sunglasses on.

Marvel as flashbangs do just about nothing to you.

w0w so op...............

[EvilBrage]

how about changing the effect on how close you are to the flashbang the higher the effect of it will become? If you're on top of it, well, you're preety much gona turn white screened and good bye your ears for some time. But the further you are let's say.. starting from five to four tile range it would have medium effect like a two second screen flash or one second.

and then maybe from 5~6 to 8 it has minimum effect. a brief flash on your eyes.

I like this idea.

 

[ignorant sarcasm]

I know you don't typically use flashbangs and prefer to go right for six revolver shots to the head, but sunglasses only block about 10% of the flashbang's effect. Security helmets, on the other hand, allow an officer to jump right back up after 2 ticks. Compare this to the 13 ticks (longer than a disarm-intent stun from a baton, mind you) that everyone else has to sit through and you'll see the disconnect. People with sunglasses are only marginally better off, stunned for 10 ticks and weakened for 3 instead. Even airtight hardsuits don't provide any level of protection from a flashbang - the only way to reduce your stun time to security officer levels are to have a security helmet, have earmuffs (conveniently also only possessed by security) or be a hulk.

A flashbang shouldn't be delivering the same amount of stun as a baton, and I'm curious about the interpretation that it would explode with enough force to knock someone off their feet, or even cause them to drop to the ground when they're 7 tiles away.

I'm still adamant about changing the effect to an extended blindness/deafness rather than a stun.

[Susan]

I know you don't typically use flashbangs and prefer to go right for six revolver shots to the head, but sunglasses only block about 10% of the flashbang's effect. Security helmets, on the other hand, allow an officer to jump right back up after 2 ticks. Compare this to the 13 ticks (longer than a disarm-intent stun from a baton, mind you) that everyone else has to sit through and you'll see the disconnect. People with sunglasses are only marginally better off, stunned for 10 ticks and weakened for 3 instead. Even airtight hardsuits don't provide any level of protection from a flashbang - the only way to reduce your stun time to security officer levels are to have a security helmet, have earmuffs (conveniently also only possessed by security) or be a hulk.

A flashbang shouldn't be delivering the same amount of stun as a baton, and I'm curious about the interpretation that it would explode with enough force to knock someone off their feet, or even cause them to drop to the ground when they're 7 tiles away.

I'm still adamant about changing the effect to an extended blindness/deafness rather than a stun.

 

I realize you're very sore about your self-antagging getting cut short by security having half of a brain but I think you should look up what you're talking about before you speak.

Hardsuits entirely negate the effects of flashbangs outside of a three tile radius - just the helmet, in fact. And if you get stunned within those three tiles, you're down for about a second or two. Ergo, unless you walk right up next to it or get hit by a cooked grenade you have more than enough time to escape the blast. Similarly, even security sunglasses don't protect against flashbangs. I have been stunned by being too close - you don't drop, but you are frozen and cannot do anything. Outside of a certain radius sunglasses negate the effects - half of the normal range, I'm pretty sure.

They don't need to be balanced. They are fine as they are. Blinding people in this game is completely and utterly useless. It does nothing. Whoo three seconds of whiteness does literally shit. Flashbangs are designed not to just blind you, they disorient you.

Deafness and blindness literally do nothing. Antags will not care about the fact they are deaf. No one will ever care about RPing the effects of anything. Here is how you beat flashbangs: wear glasses, walk away. If security is smart enough to cook a grenade and actually land it, you got outclassed, bud. Whoops. Oh well.

[EvilBrage]

I realize you're very sore about your self-antagging getting cut short by security having half of a brain but I think you should look up what you're talking about before you speak.

Hardsuits entirely negate the effects of flashbangs outside of a three tile radius - just the helmet, in fact. And if you get stunned within those three tiles, you're down for about a second or two. Ergo, unless you walk right up next to it or get hit by a cooked grenade you have more than enough time to escape the blast. Similarly, even security sunglasses don't protect against flashbangs. I have been stunned by being too close - you don't drop, but you are frozen and cannot do anything. Outside of a certain radius sunglasses negate the effects - half of the normal range, I'm pretty sure.

On the contrary, the majority of players seem to enjoy what I bring to the game - unlike what you do, but that's none of my business.

In any case, the very reason I brought up this suggestion was that, no, sunglasses do not negate flashbang effects at any range (as in, the flashbang was a full seven tiles away when it detonated, and I was still stunned despite wearing sunglasses.) If the mechanics worked as you've described, that would be wonderful - but the unfortunate fact is that they don't.

Don't get so defensive over being "pretty sure," because you're incorrect.

[Conservatron]

ok I just want to chime in on the 'realism' aspect here.

using conventional ss13 math, 1 tile is equal to 2 meters

the radius of a flash bang blast affects 7 tiles out, which is 14 meters in one direction (which is a full 45 feet away to us americans)

assuming the blast is a perfect circle (its not because of tile mechanics) that gives the range of a flash bang 615.75 meters

now from wikipedia for the irl stats of the flashbang used by the US military today:

170–180 decibels and 6–8 million Candela within a 5-foot (1.5 m) radius

that would make the instant down radius to be less than 2 tiles, and light and sound dilutes very quickly as you move further away.

So in short, the blast radius and effects should probably be toned down, Its the future, so I'd say 3 tiles maximum effect and 5 tile terminus. Its still big enough to be useful but actually gives people time to move away rather than having it instantly end the conflict

[LordFowl]

Where are you getting two meters from? I'm pretty sure from the specifics of air-code the game considers each tile to be one square meter.

[Killerhurtz]

The air code considers each tile to be 2500L of air. 1l is 1000ml, and IIRC 1ml is 1cm^3. Which means each room would be 2500000cm^3 - a room 100x100x250cm, so yes on a 2D plane, a 1x1 square. (Also the maintenance hallways are panic-inducingly small)

Which means, according to your numbers, it should be ~4 tiles instant takedown and ~8-10 tiles terminus. Isn't that what the flashbangs currently are?

(also if each tile was 200cm, the ceiling would need to be 62 cm high - who wants to crawl?)

Edited November 3, 2015 by Guest

[Conservatron]

Where are you getting two meters from? I'm pretty sure from the specifics of air-code the game considers each tile to be one square meter.

shield generators in engineering have 1 tile = 2 meters

[Killerhurtz]

Sounds like shield generators need fixing then. It makes more sense to have almost-freakishly small spaces on a space station than it does having 2m maintenance hallways.

[Conservatron]

either way, if a tile is 1 square meter, current stats would still only have 1.5 tiles of range. the lift to 3 doubles it

but the 7 tile radius is literally the entire screen

[Nik]

I seem to be the only person to ever notice HOW good they are.

Not only is there range hilariously high, and long lasting, the HOS kitted in his usual gear gets up after half a second, giving him a constant AOE stun.

Extra note, they also super damage Blobs, and allow you to clear ooze rapidly. lovely, lovely flashbangs.

I wouldn't say they need nerfing, as much as defenses against them need buffing. Ghetto ear plugs, for one, would be useful.

[Lady_of_Ravens]

I'm not expert on combat mechanics, but from the few times I've been flashbanged they've put me down for a startling amount of time. Perhaps a second or three of stun followed by a period of reduced vision and movement would make more sense than being flat on your back and totally helpless for 15 seconds or however long it lasts.

[Vanagandr]

Flashbangs are unfair, yes.

Personally I think reduced range or reduced effect - or, perhaps, with playtesting, both - would be good.

[TechnoKat]

I'm okay with how the flashbangs are, but if coders can fix that annoying shit where you're not even facing the flashbang and at a good distance away, you just stand still for like 30 secs before you can move again.

[Nik]

I'm okay with how the flashbangs are, but if coders can fix that annoying shit where you're not even facing the flashbang and at a good distance away, you just stand still for like 30 secs before you can move again.

 

You people really don't understand how a flash bang work, do you. A flash bang is designed for crowd control in tight environments, overloading the brain with light and sound. The reason why it's effective in tight corridors and small rooms is that light and sound reflects off of surfaces, and the sheer amount of it can pierce through your fucking eyelids, let alone a pair of sunglasses. Looking away wouldn't even mitigate the effects. That, and the range on one of these in a tight environment made of metal is probably way higher then it is currently.

And, the sound is what causes you to fall on your ass, not the light. So no, looking away doesn't help you. the sound can vibrate through your skull to cause the effects. If anything, they should be buffed because we are talking about the old fashion ones from the 1980's. Well, I'm not saying we should, but welcome to the Heavy RP server where everyone complains about gameplay~

[TechnoKat]

I'm okay with how the flashbangs are, but if coders can fix that annoying shit where you're not even facing the flashbang and at a good distance away, you just stand still for like 30 secs before you can move again.

 

You people really don't understand how a flash bang work, do you. A flash bang is designed for crowd control in tight environments, overloading the brain with light and sound. The reason why it's effective in tight corridors and small rooms is that light and sound reflects off of surfaces, and the sheer amount of it can pierce through your fucking eyelids, let alone a pair of sunglasses. Looking away wouldn't even mitigate the effects. That, and the range on one of these in a tight environment made of metal is probably way higher then it is currently.

And, the sound is what causes you to fall on your ass, not the light. So no, looking away doesn't help you. the sound can vibrate through your skull to cause the effects. If anything, they should be buffed because we are talking about the old fashion ones from the 1980's. Well, I'm not saying we should, but welcome to the Heavy RP server where everyone complains about gameplay~

 

I'm not talking about realism here. I'm talking about how the code is god awful with the flashbang. You can stay away from a VERY good distance, yet still get fucked by it, no matter what. You just simply stand still thirty seconds unable to do shit, like move around.

[canon35]

I say no against this. Seriously, sunglasses, hardsuits, walking AWAY from the flashbang. All ways to avoid it. We don't need to keep fucking nerfing security.

[Conservatron]

I say no against this. Seriously, sunglasses, hardsuits, walking AWAY from the flashbang. All ways to avoid it. We don't need to keep fucking nerfing security.

hardsuits don't protect against flashbangs

sunglasses hardly do anything against flashbangs

the radius of a flashbang is 7 tiles, for reference the entire width of the ss13 gameplay screen is 14 tiles. one flashbang affects an entire screen of gameplay

its not a nerf, its a balance. cutting down the distances will force flashbangs to be used intelligently and still be effective

[Susan]

I say no against this. Seriously, sunglasses, hardsuits, walking AWAY from the flashbang. All ways to avoid it. We don't need to keep fucking nerfing security.

hardsuits don't protect against flashbangs

 

Wear a hardsuit helmet. Now you're immune to flashbangs, and if you get caught close to one (3 tiles), it's like a two tick stun.

Let's stop trying to emulate Bay and nerf security's equipment to gargle antag cock.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Guest