Buff the CRAP out of halloss (pain damage).

[Guest]

Right, here's the deal. For the reason of the fact that it is byond code and it is not designed to be realistic or crippling in any manner, it is very easy to heal off your wounds, pain and trauma in just a few minutes and run headlong back into danger again without giving two fucks about consequence.

A typical stray smg bullet is not going to kill you because you can easily wrap gauze around it, and it'll heal off. Even if it embeds, it's only in your arm, anyway. It won't break any limbs, due to the nature of how organ damage thresholds work. Halloss doesn't calculate any heavy-hitting modifiers like lasers do. Even then, lasers tend to kill as much as ballistics do.

Tasers are also really simple to just brush off after a short time of not being tased. Halloss falls off very quickly after awhile if there is no actual damage to accompany it, such as burn.

When you enter a situation with guns or tasers or any other source that causes a normal person a great deal of pain in a typical, practical scenario, you can expect the consequence that the person who entered that situation (willingly or nonwillingly, it doesn't matter) will be mildly or severely crippled.

When you ask yourselves why people ignore pain RP, you need to look at the circumstances of how game mechanics and code works. Nuke ops and security officers clash at each other with the OOC knowledge that even if they take just ONE shot, it's not going to be the end of the world for them. They can just as well ignore what damage they took because it's not even close to being crippling in game mechanics, whereas in any other game with medical/life systems like these you're immediately punished harshly for taking damage. Trauma is a real, present thing, it can and will ruin you. And it should, because it makes sense. That's how things are. You don't question it because that's how the physics work, in-game.

This is why we have people ignoring pain. This is why we have people running into breaches without a hardsuit, or haphazardly entering situations that are clearly dangerous for them to be in. This is why we have people running to disarm people with guns without a care if they get shot.

Because, while it is 'easy' to die, death doesn't happen as much as it should for people who try and abuse the physics and mechanics of the in-game world.

So, this is what I propose.

1.) Make halloss more instantaneous with its effects.

2.) Make sources that create ONLY halloss (such as tasers) deal LESS overall halloss damage. See #3 as to why.

3.) Halloss should ONLY 'wear off' after a person who has taken a great deal of halloss is using the 'rest' command. Wears off slightly faster if they are buckled to a chair or a bed to rest. My rationale for this is that people who take hits from stun electrodes should not get up fully healed from the trauma of getting hit several times.

4.) Bone breaks/internal organ injuries should deal a flat, unrecoverable amount of halloss to a humanoid, until the organ/bone injury is fixed and slept off. I also think movement with broken legs/feet should randomly deal bits of halloss for trying to move without any assistance.

5.) Adjust chemcode to make chemistry use up more resources to make chemicals. I'm not kidding. Chemistry is like playing God. You can choose very easily who lives or dies just by the chemicals you make, and you can manage to make a LOT of them.

6.) Enbiggen the text for pain. Just cuz.

What will this change? Well, now being instantly healed up from your injuries after a short visit to medical isn't an option. You're now required to rest after taking a good deal of physical trauma. That, and you will have to scream over the radio whenever you shatter both of your legs and you can't get up and walk because of how overwhelming the pain is. You're also screaming for someone to help you, so, that's roleplay right there.

I mean, do I really have to explain this? This would directly benefit the evident niche we're trying to fill here. We're supposed to be heavy roleplay, right? Why do we still have light-roleplay pro-action mechanics, then?

[Killerhurtz]

I 9000% agree with this, for several reasons:

-No more tank nukeops

-Wizards easier to deal with

-FINALLY a way to neutralize a changeling better. Right now, there's very VERY little that Security can do when the changeling decides to fuck shit up.

-Heavier consequences for discharging weapons for security

-Chemistry IS fucking ridiculous. With one chemist, it's an endless fountain - with two, it's an overstocked chemical storage within 30 minutes.

-It further separates unathi and IPCs mechanically (Unathi should be able to shrug it off a bit more, like current code, and IPCs are haloss-free)

But yeah I absolutely approve of this.

[jackfractal]

I mean, sure, I think you present a reasonable argument, but it is going to have a lot of nock-on effects, most of which will involve boredom.

Being crippled is boring.

Losing instantly for a single failure in combat is boring.

Being killed from ambush with no chance of success is boring.

Waiting a long time before you can keep playing is boring.

SS13 is a high-simulation game. In such games, accuracy of the simulation is important, but it's also important for it to still be enjoyable to play.

I think doing as you suggest will exacerbate the issue of antagonists and security players not giving each other a chance during encounters. If you're definitely going to be crippled for several minutes for taking a taser shot, the correct response for a traitor surprised by security is going to be murder from ambush.

[Guest]

the game is not meant to be fair.

the game is not a combat or a murder simulation. there are other servers or even other games for that aim.

this server is supposed to be a roleplay simulator. it is expected to hold roleplay in a higher regard than any other theme in-game.

sticking 'heavy roleplay' on our server title and pretending that's the case while antagonists, security officers, engineers, scientists, and all manner of shitters rampantly murdering each other for shitty, petty reasons. it's just. Why even be here?

it's your choice whether or not you choose to engage in robusting people. different strokes, different folks. there should, however, be more drastic consequences to taking part in that. it should be a struggle to be constantly fighting either antags or security. If we are a roleplay server, then we should balance game mechanics to better suit roleplay over constant action.

[jackfractal]

I'm having a little trouble understanding you there Delta. Can you explain how spending five minutes sleeping after getting hit by a taser is 'roleplaying' while, NOT spending five minutes sleeping after getting hit by a taser isn't?

The idea that adding harsher consequences to damage to SS13 will make it more realistic may have some basis in fact, but SS13's level of simulation could not be considered realistic even in the best of lights. There are so many enormous gaps in it's simulation that focusing on this one should only be done for the purposes of improving gameplay. Arguments toward simulationist purity, when talking about SS13, are farcical on their face.

Your suggestions would also do nothing to mitigate the fact that, to a degree, SS13 is a murder simulator. It's a simulator (a non-realistic on) that encourages murder. Murder is one of the tools in the toolboxes of both antagonists and protagonists. This has been true since the very beginning and it remains true now. All your suggestions would do is make murder easier and sudden and violent murder a more viable option.

If you increase the lethality of combat, people who risk combat (see: all antagonists) are forced to assume more risk. Anyone who risks violence or capture if discovered will act to mitigate that risk in the most efficient way they can. The best way to mitigate risk in a system where you only need one strike is to be the one who strikes first. It will be quite a bit easier to be a serial murderer using your system as it will be easy to incapacitate your victims, and once you've hit someone once, they will be unable to escape you.

Imagine the opposite idea. Imagine a version of this game where violence has fewer long-term consequences. In such a system, failures are easier to recover from, which makes people more willing to take more risks. As striking first is no longer an overwhelming advantage, one can take a chance on talking to an opponent rather then attacking right away.

Maybe the security officer doesn't know your a changeling? Maybe he just wants to talk? Maybe he's just trying to interview you to see if you saw something. If he attacks you, yeah, you might be at a disadvantage, but your know you can recover from that disadvantage because combat takes a while to play out. You're going to be more willing to give them a chance because you're not terrified of instant failure. They're going to be more willing to give you a chance because they're not terrified of instant failure. Everything is less stressful and less likely to result in hurt feelings.

That sounds a lot closer to the game that I want to play then one where instant-stealth-murder is the best option.

On a related topic and mostly responding to Killerhurtz, I think it's important to remember that security should not win all, or even most of the time. The antagonists should have a roughly equal chance to achieve victory as the crew. That means that 50% of nuke ops teams should complete their objectives and escape, 50% of MALF AI's should survive and win, 50% of wizards should end the round alive, and free, and 50% of changelings, vampires, and traitors should raise hell, eat people, and get away with it.

We are not even close to that. Security curb-stomps the opposition with plodding regularity. Signing up to play an antagonists on this server is a lot like signing up to be a jobber or a punching bag.

It should be hard for security to beat antagonists.

It should be easier for antagonists, with equal skill levels, to win, due to the fact that people are able to play security round after round and practice their skills, whereas nobody is able to practice as a nuke op, a wizard or a vampire due to how infrequently you get to play them.

But what about rooooooleplaying?

What about it? The primary mechanic for tabletop roleplaying games is weighted randomization. You think people don't care about balance in D&D or Pathfinder? You don't think they thought about niche protection and combat balance in Exalted? Vampire? Legend of the Five Rings?

This is a game and, as much as possible, it should be a fun one.

I can't see these proposed changes as doing anything other then reducing the fun.

[Skull132]

Uh. No.

Tasers are already the most lethal weapon in the game, and they work off of halloss. And those things should be nerfed!

[Killerhurtz]

Skull, did you read?

The suggestions made Tasers slightly weaker (but because of haloss you have to rest for a few seconds). It suggested adding permanent Haloss damage to ballistics and broken bones so that people don't shrug off bullets or walk on broken legs.

[Thundy]

This is cool, but if we do do this, could we have damage done to self reduced? I'm sick of trying to unscrew a window and accidentally stabbing myself in the chest, blood going everywhere.

[Carver]

Jack basically summed up why this doesn't work.

You're trying to add 'realism' to cut down on powergame, but all you do is encourage even worse powergame than before.