Return IPC brute modifier

[NebulaFlare]

Yes. I'm staking this out. Yes, I know so many will hate this. No, you listen to me.

The normalized brute modifier makes IPCs a walking glass statue. I'm not even joking. I don't want to hear how 'blah blah blah, it's not fair IPCs are so robust' *smacks everyone with a hammer* The old way was balanced, trust me. This way, is a pain in the tushie.

Take this scenario:

If an IPC gets their shell damaged, it's pretty much game over. If there is no competent roboticist, and since they cannot repair themselves, and are left to lie in wait.

During a ling on the station, DragonSnap was trying to save her friends, and in two hits she has BOTH her legs fly off. She was left as a mangled hunk of metal on the ground. This was only because she had to get into a fistfight earlier to protect someone else and no one was able to repair her. No roboticist. No engineers. No one. So she spent a good amount of time walking around with a damaged shell. Seriously. Come on. Ow.

Another round, her hardsuit gets torn making it absolutely null, and a misfired shot from an ERT (GG btw) blows up a fuel tank, effectively breaching the station. She immediately goes about trying to repair the station to save everyone. But alas, she starts overheating in the process. MY GOSH, my human counterparts can survive so MUCH longer than SHE can. Why? They can breathe air. Lori Alvarez is my main engineer, so she pops on an O2 tank and gasmask, no biggie~ My poor DragonSnap? ERT had to drag out her mangled shell since she was effectively trapped behind airlocks since she can't hold a crowbar to open them.

To top it all off, she's still prone to spess, one-shot EMP, and lings. Yes, lings. Even if they can't absorb her, they can just bash at her with their sword arm. That works quite as well.

Let's do an advantage/disadvantage list, shall we?

Advantage: Immune to the slow, creeping death of diseases

Disadvantage: gets one-shot by EMP

Advantage: No pain-crit

Disadvantage: No automatic self-heal

Advantage: Don't need O2 to survive

Disadvantage: superheats in a vacuum.

Advantage: Arguable immortality since you can remove the processor in event of death.

Disadvantage: YOU ARE NOW A METAL CUBE AT THE MERCY OF EVERYONE AROUND YOU.

Advantage: Can syphon off electricity anywhere to sustain sustenance.

Disadvantage: No power? Start worrying.

Disadvantage: Can't manual self-repair.

Disadvantage: Forever rely on someone else for repair.

Disadvantage: Know full well that 95% of the crew is not trained for your repair.

Disadvantage: Lore-wise, you are likely still a piece of property paying off your shell.

Disadvantage: Now you also gotta pay for those excessive damages.

Disadvantage: Likelyhood of getting shot up and beaten increases because 'Hey, I'm immortal, I MUST protect my organic friends who aren't!'

Disadvantage: 'I don't want to protect organics' makes you a terribad organic-hater

*calming sigh*

What I'm trying to say is that the brute modifier acted as a very, very useful shield for the lack of proper repair being available. No self repair, no self-heal, and rarely anyone else to repair you - IPCs have become pretty vulnerable. And if either your hands or feet get blown off (which seems to happen with frightfully relative ease, like touching an electrified door, youch) You are now absolutely helpless.

Comparing the assistance of an entire medical staff, there is only one or two roboticists within the crew who would know how to repair an IPC, especially blown-off limbs. I can't even remember a time when limbs were effectively removed from my non-IPC characters, that didn't result along with a death. Quite honestly, being a ghost and waiting for cloning is a lot more entertaining than being a mangled hunk of metal that's absolutely screwed over.

And I really do not want to see a surgeon do a roboticist's job. Doctors are not mechanics. Sure, I can assume you'd be able to figure out how to get the processor out of a broken shell, but you're telling me you can replace a limb because it's 'similar' to surgery, then no. That's strictly the roboticist's job.

[SilverTalismen]

I agree, I want the brute modifier back aswell, why? because one time as IAA, I got shot by lasers by CHANGELINGS who didn't absorb anyone, but rather took over the statuion and I spent thirty minutes trying to stop them moving diona speed as a IPC, I miss the damage modifier, it was really useful

[LetzShake]

Yeah... this sounds like a really frustrating mechanic in the name of 'balance'. I don't understand why anybody would play an IPC with them in this state.

[Killerhurtz]

I'd say maybe not ENTIRELY back, but at least increased limb tolerance. Something I had to say sums it up quite well:

"CAC? It happened again."

I was trying, during a Tuiee event with the magical box in the bar, to hack an autolathe for the detective I think it was. But I accidentally cut the ground wire, and now the whole machine was electrical. I try fixing it, VLAM my hand is lost to bluespace. CAC fixes it. I try fixing it again - VLAM my other hand is gone in an instant despite having been repaired. And it was hilarious

So yeah - I say that it's an issue that needs to be addressed, and here's my possible solutions:

-Fix the nanopaste OPness and have it be creatable (without the research bonuses) from an autolathe, vendor or some other easily accessible source.

-Have a similar but different item(s) (omnipaste? Carbon Paste and Silicon Paste? Or maybe just carbon/iron and silicon/copper?) that can either be made in a chemistry lab or in an autolathe and that, when in an IPC's chemical storage, is slowly consumed (if one chemical, only that - if two, for the relevant damage type) to repair damage (to me, it would make sense that in 2457, with AI and nanotech, that shells would come with their own personalized nanoswarm that only need materials to fix the shell) for slow healing. That way, it IS still different to organics (as they cannot heal BY THEMSELVES) without stripping them of self-repair. And to avoid just having IPCs stocking up on the required chemicals, have it be consumed a LOT faster (in the order of 1 unit per unit of damage, and one unit of damage healed per tick, maybe more unit of chemical per unit of damage) and be consumed even if there's no damage to repair. So that damaged IPCs would specifically need to obtain the chemicals when damaged.

-Re-renable IPC self-repair. IIRC the whole lore and mechanic was implemented because IPCs were already tanks and tools were widely available. But now that they're practically made of wet tissue (and since 90% of the crew have access to some form of first-aid kit), it would make sense to allow them to self-repair, both lore-wise (I mean, a sapient machine that is unable to maintain itself? What?) and mechanic-wise (since humans can also repair basic damage to themselves). ALSO can't IPCs do self-surgery to remove/change components that break, already, since they don't need anesthetics or any other sort of surgery prep? I mean, sure - that TECHNICALLY means that as long as they don't get both arms destroyed they COULD replace everything that's damaged - but who wants that?

-On that same vein, have a lore point that a class of engineers (either electrical engineers or maintenance technicians) have the knowledge (since they know construction, complex devices and electrical construction) to do repairs on IPCs. Makes sense lore-wise, helps with the shortage of roboticists (since a station without engineers is in deep shit anyway) and allows IPCs to be repaired.

-Re-increase, partially or fully, IPC brute modifier. I personally am strongly against this because one, it's the cheapest solution; two, it's a lame way of making IPCs stronger; three, people are going to complain more with this solution; and four (which is entirely personal opinion) it's a more interesting thing to be able to constantly be repaired from damage than being a damage sponge (which isn't the Diona already is?). I know that they have damageable organs now (like eyes that can be broken, or the radiator which can break and overheat the IPC), but still...

Personally, I'd much rather have the IPCs be a species of massive regeneration than another damage soak. Like in combat, dual-wield - in one hand, a syringe of chemical, in the other a carbine. It's a much more interesting and amazing feat to stave off massive damage than it is to just absorb it all and shoot.

Thoughts?

Also @ LetzShake : that's a HUGE part of the problem, this mentality. I tend to lose a tiny bit of respect for the players who play a species only for the mechanical advantages they present during antag roles. I play an IPC because of their lore, characteristics and sheer possibilities - not because they used to be tanks who could soak damage. Hell, it made things even more interesting since the damage - like in that Tuiee event, I had to choose between several of Sybil's traits: selflessness, self-preservation, ingenuity and safety. Due to a fluke that she exploited she ended up choosing selflessness and ingenuity (and that ended her getting killed). But with IPCs too powerful? It would have become a game of "Send the IPC in".

[EvilBrage]

I'd say maybe not ENTIRELY back, but at least increased limb tolerance.

I will edit this post when I find it, but increased damage capacity for robotic parts is already a thing.

 

Disadvantage: Can't manual self-repair.

Disadvantage: Forever rely on someone else for repair.

Disadvantage: Know full well that 95% of the crew is not trained for your repair.

Disadvantage: Lore-wise, you are likely still a piece of property paying off your shell.

Disadvantage: Now you also gotta pay for those excessive damages.

Disadvantage: Likelyhood of getting shot up and beaten increases because 'Hey, I'm immortal, I MUST protect my organic friends who aren't!'

Disadvantage: 'I don't want to protect organics' makes you a terribad organic-hater.

 

Advantage: Diseases aren't quite as slow as we'd like them to be.

Advantage: EMP has a 30% chance to simply do 15 damage to a given robotic limb segment (arm, hand, leg, foot.) You do have a minute chance to simply take damage.

Advantage: A destroyed IPC limb with damage left over does not pass to other limbs as with organics.

Advantage: Wounds can't GET INFECTED GRRRFHG{UH#@!NGB)*IBG!#U{

Advantage: Cannot be stung by changelings.

Advantage: Cannot be poisoned/debilitated with chemicals.

Advantage: Cannot be killed by organ damage.

Advantage: Beep boop random lore facts don't impact you in-game.

Advantage: Being "immortal" shouldn't impact self-preservation - you can still be destroyed.

Advantage: "Organic-Hater" fan club has high membership.

Advantage: Cannot be tazed, bro.

An IPC has a specific set of advantages offset by some disadvantages. The brute modifier was removed because it was too powerful an advantage, and I stand firmly by that observation given the other advantages stated above. Maybe add some sort of armor plates that can be welded onto an IPC that would slow it down to diona speed if you really want that armor, but gone are the days of such a high brute reduction rate. Maybe a 20% with the armor.

[jackfractal]

I'm all for keeping them fragile and giving them the ability to repair themselves. I like the idea that IPC's are fragile, but easy to fix.

I'm also for giving the ability to 'shut down' when depressurized. While 'shut down' they would stop generating heat but would be unable to move or speak. IPC's would then have the choice of shutting down during a depressurization (trusting that the crew will save them) or trying to get to safety and risk overheating.

[LetzShake]

Also @ LetzShake : that's a HUGE part of the problem, this mentality. I tend to lose a tiny bit of respect for the players who play a species only for the mechanical advantages they present during antag roles.

 

I don't care about a mechanical advantage. I just wouldn't wnat to be unfixably destroyed at the drop of a hat every shift.

[CakeIsOssim]

I agree, I want the brute modifier back aswell, why? because one time as IAA, I got shot by lasers by CHANGELINGS who didn't absorb anyone, but rather took over the statuion and I spent thirty minutes trying to stop them moving diona speed as a IPC, I miss the damage modifier, it was really useful

 

Lasers =/= Brute. Robotic limbs are vulnerable to lasers for a reason (because they aren't damaged as much by brute, or shouldn't be).

 

-Have a similar but different item(s) (omnipaste? Carbon Paste and Silicon Paste? Or maybe just carbon/iron and silicon/copper?) that can either be made in a chemistry lab or in an autolathe and that, when in an IPC's chemical storage, is slowly consumed (if one chemical, only that - if two, for the relevant damage type) to repair damage (to me, it would make sense that in 2457, with AI and nanotech, that shells would come with their own personalized nanoswarm that only need materials to fix the shell) for slow healing. That way, it IS still different to organics (as they cannot heal BY THEMSELVES) without stripping them of self-repair. And to avoid just having IPCs stocking up on the required chemicals, have it be consumed a LOT faster (in the order of 1 unit per unit of damage, and one unit of damage healed per tick, maybe more unit of chemical per unit of damage) and be consumed even if there's no damage to repair. So that damaged IPCs would specifically need to obtain the chemicals when damaged.

 

This. OR...

 

-Re-increase, partially or fully, IPC brute modifier. I personally am strongly against this because one, it's the cheapest solution; two, it's a lame way of making IPCs stronger; three, people are going to complain more with this solution; and four (which is entirely personal opinion) it's a more interesting thing to be able to constantly be repaired from damage than being a damage sponge (which isn't the Diona already is?). I know that they have damageable organs now (like eyes that can be broken, or the radiator which can break and overheat the IPC), but still...

 

That. I'm not against it myself, but I would still like it back. Although, the whole chemical storage thing would be kind of OP. IPCs can hold an insane amount of chemicals, and they have like, almost a hundred more health than organics. Or was it 200? I can't remember, despite how many times Skull has said it.

 

Advantage: Cannot be killed by organ damage.

 

Radiator in the head. If it gets damaged, say bye-bye to your IPC. And, there are going to be more organs in the future, such as a main power unit in the chest or something. I'm not entirely sure, but Skull's still working on it.

It's just... they're glass people now. Some people like it, a lot of people don't. I know I don't like it. I definitely don't play them for their mechanical advantages (or disadvantages now), but it gets really old to get dismembered by the smallest of damages. It's a robot. It's a machine. It should be built to be somewhat hardy. I've said it before, and I've just said it again.

[Killerhurtz]

Cake, I know that the IPC storage is massive - hence why I proposed making them unable to hold these chemicals for an extended period of time (and possibly up the ante - 25 units of chemical per point of damage, that way if they somehow manage to fill their chemical storage with the relevant chemical(s) they can still only heal 160 HP)

And to answer you, Cake, they FUNCTIONALLY have 200HP - the standard 100 HP of organics, and the 100HP of crit that they can use because machines.

[Dreamix]

And to answer you, Cake, they FUNCTIONALLY have 200HP - the standard 100 HP of organics, and the 100HP of crit that they can use because machines.

200HP, that they don't really get to use, since they get disabled quite easily, look: people reporting IPC's to be squishy.

[Skull132]

I think it's time that I make a summary/further planning thread for IPCs shortly. Where I summarize and address a few things, including my plan for this!